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On May 29 2012 17:10 Sergio1992 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 09:10 iAmJeffReY wrote:
My TvZ is still on point, even with patch doing demuslim like opening. You can go into anything, with 1 reactor, 1 tech lab, 3 rax 1 fac and 2 OCs.
Thank you sir, do you have a link for Demuslim opening? Never heard of it 
Still had this around... I think it's a post about the Demuslim build from iAmJeffReY
+ Show Spoiler +10 depot 12 rax 15 depot to like 10% -> halt and scout (rax scv finishes) Or anytime before to deny scout, doesn't change the BO at all. 16 gas 17 marine 17 OC 21 CC at natural (once OC is done, make an SCV and rally it to natural 400 minerals once it gets there) 23 factory 24 depot (start wall off) 25 rax 25 rax Go with constant scv production and 4 marines -> reactor. Keep scouting SCV alive. Check gas, and pool timing, then go to natural to scout for a spine if they make it. If they make a spine, move out with 3 marines to pressure with 3 marine 1 scv. If no spine, go on 4 marines 1 scv. Kite lings (they're slow) and snipe any OLs you can. Spines are my priority, as they die very fast to 4 marines 1 scv. With decent control, you can get 1-2 drones, 3-4 lings, maybe a queen if they're sloppy, or maybe an OL. Once the 2/3 rax are done, one gets a tech lab other starts marines. Once tech lab is about 50-75% done, start ebay at wall of. Depot well before you need them to not be blocked. Constant hellions to keep map control, and constant marines to bolster your army. Start stim once tech lab is done, and +1 likewise with the ebay. After about 15-20 seconds of starting plus 1, start 2nd tech lab, and CS once it's done. Move out a bit before stim cs and +1 finish to establish map control if it's 'safe'. Most zergs now a days go multiple queens, and a faster third. This push shits on those 3rds, as stim/cs/+1 marines with hellion support rolllllllll zerg units early. I personally delay the push by a bit, and make 3-4 marauders to pick off queens, and spines faster. Once +1 is done, start +1 armor. When +1 armor is 70% start a 2nd ebay, and an armory. Start 3rd cc 70-80 supply, in that range. From there, get 2nd and 3rd gas, 2 more rax, starport, and 2nd factory. If they go ling infestor -> 2 factories start hellions constant with blue flame started. I have 5 rax, 2 tech lab, 3 reactor, 6 marine/2 marauder/2 hellion cycles. With this composition, you can be out on the map sniping lings and forcing more lings = less drones. Once they establish a bit of order, tech lab 2nd factory, and get double factory siege tank production as you continue 5 rax, 2 fac, 1 port production. You're set up for awesome 3 base production, fast upgrades, and constant pressure with still solid macro and an early third. Drops around 9-10 min. A few random examples from my starting of ladder climb on KR/EU. http://drop.sc/167847 random zerg on KR http://drop.sc/167848 vs bane bust (says hes plat, but he was 300pt master on EU) http://drop.sc/167849 random zerg on KR http://drop.sc/157687 600 pt zerg on NA http://drop.sc/158117 roach/ling -> roach bane ling tier1 mass zerg on EU http://drop.sc/158705 vs 800pt zerg on NA going mass ling blind -> ling infestor fast third on daybreak http://drop.sc/157009 vs 630 zerg on NA http://drop.sc/157028 vs 400 pt zerg, I believe this is the 100% 5 rax 2 fac 1 port no tanks constant pressure game vs ling bling busts constantly.
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Hello fellow Underpowered terran friends!
I have a hard time whit terran lately. Ive improved my speed and somegames i reach 200+ apm but regular apm is like 150+ if i play normal.
its so hard to micro vs a massive zerg force.. Even if u split perfectly and win the engagement, you dont have much units left, and all they have to do is hotkey> S> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and army is up again..
i got demoted a week ago from diamond, but im on a winning streak now again.. (easy players) but when i meet good ppl that know how stuff works.. i dont win.. toss upgrades theyr units and have archons and colosus and templar.. even whit ghost.. they stil get energy left to storm me the hell out of the game. here are some 2 replays= can you tell me what i do wrong, or is it what my friend said, its Just the engagements that sucks?
tvz = http://drop.sc/185288
tvp= http://drop.sc/185002
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On May 29 2012 21:59 BimBoHunTeR wrote:Hello fellow Underpowered terran friends! I have a hard time whit terran lately. Ive improved my speed and somegames i reach 200+ apm but regular apm is like 150+ if i play normal. its so hard to micro vs a massive zerg force.. Even if u split perfectly and win the engagement, you dont have much units left, and all they have to do is hotkey> S> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and army is up again.. i got demoted a week ago from diamond, but im on a winning streak now again.. (easy players) but when i meet good ppl that know how stuff works.. i dont win.. toss upgrades theyr units and have archons and colosus and templar.. even whit ghost.. they stil get energy left to storm me the hell out of the game. here are some 2 replays= can you tell me what i do wrong, or is it what my friend said, its Just the engagements that sucks? tvz = http://drop.sc/185288tvp= http://drop.sc/185002
Keep on trucking friend! We know how you feel!
Just remember to focus less on APM and more on decision making and the actual micro of a battle. APM should increase as your skill increases, but it is not something that necessarily will increase your skill as you increase it.
I've never had a very high APM and that didn't preclude me from reaching rank 1 master. If you are having trouble with micro versus Zerg, do marine splitting, use the unit tester, and read some of the specific techniques on TL that speak to this micro.
Playing Protoss is an entirely different beast. My best general advice for Protoss is to have perfectly crisp BOs that hit at set timings (given the accomodation of what you see). Unfortunately, good micro is a requisite in TvP, and only allows you to trade well.
Good luck!
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I'm looking for some good Terran replays. Can anyone recommend any recent ones? I want to learn some cool new effective builds :D
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On May 29 2012 18:17 TAAF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 17:10 Sergio1992 wrote:On May 29 2012 09:10 iAmJeffReY wrote:
My TvZ is still on point, even with patch doing demuslim like opening. You can go into anything, with 1 reactor, 1 tech lab, 3 rax 1 fac and 2 OCs.
Thank you sir, do you have a link for Demuslim opening? Never heard of it Still had this around... I think it's a post about the Demuslim build from iAmJeffReY + Show Spoiler +10 depot 12 rax 15 depot to like 10% -> halt and scout (rax scv finishes) Or anytime before to deny scout, doesn't change the BO at all. 16 gas 17 marine 17 OC 21 CC at natural (once OC is done, make an SCV and rally it to natural 400 minerals once it gets there) 23 factory 24 depot (start wall off) 25 rax 25 rax Go with constant scv production and 4 marines -> reactor. Keep scouting SCV alive. Check gas, and pool timing, then go to natural to scout for a spine if they make it. If they make a spine, move out with 3 marines to pressure with 3 marine 1 scv. If no spine, go on 4 marines 1 scv. Kite lings (they're slow) and snipe any OLs you can. Spines are my priority, as they die very fast to 4 marines 1 scv. With decent control, you can get 1-2 drones, 3-4 lings, maybe a queen if they're sloppy, or maybe an OL. Once the 2/3 rax are done, one gets a tech lab other starts marines. Once tech lab is about 50-75% done, start ebay at wall of. Depot well before you need them to not be blocked. Constant hellions to keep map control, and constant marines to bolster your army. Start stim once tech lab is done, and +1 likewise with the ebay. After about 15-20 seconds of starting plus 1, start 2nd tech lab, and CS once it's done. Move out a bit before stim cs and +1 finish to establish map control if it's 'safe'. Most zergs now a days go multiple queens, and a faster third. This push shits on those 3rds, as stim/cs/+1 marines with hellion support rolllllllll zerg units early. I personally delay the push by a bit, and make 3-4 marauders to pick off queens, and spines faster. Once +1 is done, start +1 armor. When +1 armor is 70% start a 2nd ebay, and an armory. Start 3rd cc 70-80 supply, in that range. From there, get 2nd and 3rd gas, 2 more rax, starport, and 2nd factory. If they go ling infestor -> 2 factories start hellions constant with blue flame started. I have 5 rax, 2 tech lab, 3 reactor, 6 marine/2 marauder/2 hellion cycles. With this composition, you can be out on the map sniping lings and forcing more lings = less drones. Once they establish a bit of order, tech lab 2nd factory, and get double factory siege tank production as you continue 5 rax, 2 fac, 1 port production. You're set up for awesome 3 base production, fast upgrades, and constant pressure with still solid macro and an early third. Drops around 9-10 min. A few random examples from my starting of ladder climb on KR/EU. http://drop.sc/167847 random zerg on KR http://drop.sc/167848 vs bane bust (says hes plat, but he was 300pt master on EU) http://drop.sc/167849 random zerg on KR http://drop.sc/157687 600 pt zerg on NA http://drop.sc/158117 roach/ling -> roach bane ling tier1 mass zerg on EU http://drop.sc/158705 vs 800pt zerg on NA going mass ling blind -> ling infestor fast third on daybreak http://drop.sc/157009 vs 630 zerg on NA http://drop.sc/157028 vs 400 pt zerg, I believe this is the 100% 5 rax 2 fac 1 port no tanks constant pressure game vs ling bling busts constantly.
On May 11 2012 04:25 IMoperator wrote:
What openers are you guys using TvZ now with the queen buff? Still reactor hellion?
Still demuslim like TvZ. It's delayed hellions, so I don't stop much creep spread or super early thirds, as is...but the push is still very effective, and you are still very, very safe to almost any bust and all in.
http://drop.sc/175669 TvZ cross map metalopolis vs ROG.MoMaN
http://drop.sc/175070 TvZ cross map metaolopis vs cafesuada a 900pt 300apm monster zerg.
http://drop.sc/175668 TvZ vs neko 750pt master Z (Lost 4 units or something this game, push outright wins)
Marine hellion 2-4 marauder stim/cs/+1 push that is just baller as shit.
Couple more for you from today on ladder.
http://drop.sc/176261 vs 800pt masters Z fast third (no gas open)
http://drop.sc/176262 vs 700pt masters Z roach ling heavy pressure -> fast third
http://drop.sc/176263 vs 900pt masters Z fast third -> mass muta to infestor hive.
When I see such a fast third with so few units, I always go out before stim cs and +1 finish. Stupid, but I almost always stop the expo and force a metric shit ton of units.
Repost. More reps against higher level people. All those were beginning of the season, so don't want you getting the misconception it's only against low level people.
Let me link a few more replays. Because of all the recent no gas 4 queen -> 5-6 minute third, I move out a lot earlier, and pressure once I see that third almost done before they can drone hard and force a ton of units.
http://drop.sc/176261 vs 970pt zerg
http://drop.sc/181537 vs 1450pt zerg (Gzathegenius has insane MMR)
http://drop.sc/176262 vs 860 pt zerg
http://drop.sc/176263 vs 1350 pt zerg
http://drop.sc/181273 vs 1100 pt zerg (Zilea the rager/streaming zerg., I wish I saved after game chat lol)
http://drop.sc/181272 vs 1100 pt zerg on keyd
http://drop.sc/188397 vs MMR abusing 1000 pt zerg (126-26 record bronze last season with 300 apm)
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I should note that Illusion did a build similar to this build by demuslim (IMO at least) in a day9's daily about him (http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-466-p2-quanticillusion-s-aggressive-unorthodox-play-6158106)
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On May 30 2012 05:28 zhurai wrote:
I should note that Illusion did a build similar to this build by demuslim (IMO at least) in a day9's daily about him (http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-466-p2-quanticillusion-s-aggressive-unorthodox-play-6158106)
iirc it's a taeja build. Same with the reaper/hellion build I've been running. I do believe both illusion and demuslim like to use/copy taeja builds, so it's like that.
I just fucking love how refined the build is, it's insane.
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On May 30 2012 06:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 05:28 zhurai wrote:
I should note that Illusion did a build similar to this build by demuslim (IMO at least) in a day9's daily about him (http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-466-p2-quanticillusion-s-aggressive-unorthodox-play-6158106)
iirc it's a taeja build. Same with the reaper/hellion build I've been running. I do believe both illusion and demuslim like to use/copy taeja builds, so it's like that. I just fucking love how refined the build is, it's insane.
Ah I see, well I guess you can use that link cause day9 did some analysis on that game or so
@reaper hellion build: in TvZ? oo must know the build order...
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On May 30 2012 08:39 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 30 2012 05:28 zhurai wrote:
I should note that Illusion did a build similar to this build by demuslim (IMO at least) in a day9's daily about him (http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-466-p2-quanticillusion-s-aggressive-unorthodox-play-6158106)
iirc it's a taeja build. Same with the reaper/hellion build I've been running. I do believe both illusion and demuslim like to use/copy taeja builds, so it's like that. I just fucking love how refined the build is, it's insane. Ah I see, well I guess you can use that link cause day9 did some analysis on that game or so @reaper hellion build: in TvZ? oo must know the build order...
nono TvT. I used to reaper/hellion in TvZ but queen buff makes it not viable.
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Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid
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On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid
to be perfectly fair, the overlord buff was needed, and the queen buff really shouldn't affect whatever level of TvZ that you have.
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On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid
...look up like 3-5 posts. I'm far from good, and yet I take out semi pro and pro zergs with a simple 'timing push' you could call it. If someone like me, almost 1k with 80 or so games, can beat a 1450+ masters zerg in the current patch, it's not nearly as hard as people make it seem.
I never even used to do reactor hellion anyways. Hellions are still effective, you just can't sit outside their base with 4 and be invulnerable.
Change your playstyle. Go watch those games, try a new build. TvZ is very micro intensive, so if your micro is suspect, your TvZ will be suspect.
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On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid
I think this is an excuse to not try harder yourself, complaining won´t change anything. Just adapt to the game, and evolve your style of play till you have a decent W/L rate.
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On May 30 2012 10:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid ...look up like 3-5 posts. I'm far from good, and yet I take out semi pro and pro zergs with a simple 'timing push' you could call it. If someone like me, almost 1k with 80 or so games, can beat a 1450+ masters zerg in the current patch, it's not nearly as hard as people make it seem. I never even used to do reactor hellion anyways. Hellions are still effective, you just can't sit outside their base with 4 and be invulnerable. Change your playstyle. Go watch those games, try a new build. TvZ is very micro intensive, so if your micro is suspect, your TvZ will be suspect.
Beating some Zergs with a "timing push" doesn't make it an easy matchup. Macro games are incredibly difficult vs good Zergs. I mean, I've beaten great Zergs with "timing pushes" but that's anecdotal and doesn't really say anything.
Specifically when you win with a "timing push" or some sort of gimmick it is never a stable win. Stuff gets figured out and what matters will always be the normal macro games. I know the feeling of just crushing your opponent with some timing or harass or whatever and thinking "man this matchup is easy" but wait until you get a few games where your push is shut down easily and you start questioning yourself and the matchup a lot more.
Personally, I've given up any hope of consistently doing damage early on against Zerg. There comes a point on the ladder where the opponent is just too good and takes minimal damage from whatever is thrown at them, so I'm experimenting more with quick 3rd builds and just going super econ focused. Of course, it's map dependant.
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On May 30 2012 11:43 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 10:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid ...look up like 3-5 posts. I'm far from good, and yet I take out semi pro and pro zergs with a simple 'timing push' you could call it. If someone like me, almost 1k with 80 or so games, can beat a 1450+ masters zerg in the current patch, it's not nearly as hard as people make it seem. I never even used to do reactor hellion anyways. Hellions are still effective, you just can't sit outside their base with 4 and be invulnerable. Change your playstyle. Go watch those games, try a new build. TvZ is very micro intensive, so if your micro is suspect, your TvZ will be suspect. Beating some Zergs with a "timing push" doesn't make it an easy matchup. Macro games are incredibly difficult vs good Zergs. I mean, I've beaten great Zergs with "timing pushes" but that's anecdotal and doesn't really say anything. Specifically when you win with a "timing push" or some sort of gimmick it is never a stable win. Stuff gets figured out and what matters will always be the normal macro games. I know the feeling of just crushing your opponent with some timing or harass or whatever and thinking "man this matchup is easy" but wait until you get a few games where your push is shut down easily and you start questioning yourself and the matchup a lot more. Personally, I've given up any hope of consistently doing damage early on against Zerg. There comes a point on the ladder where the opponent is just too good and takes minimal damage from whatever is thrown at them, so I'm experimenting more with quick 3rd builds and just going super econ focused. Of course, it's map dependant.
I don't understand this logic. Do you know what timing pushes are? Why is that a gimmick? Why is that NOT a stable win? Why do people feel the need to be like MACRO UP, 4-5 BASES, 50 MINUTE GAMES, ONLY WAY TO PROPERLY PLAY.
If you watch any of his replays that he's posted (and I have), you can easily see that the push doesn't always kill people. And it'll turn into a macro game. Playing Terran is all about putting pressure on the opponent, especially TvZ. The race isn't great at sitting back and just making bases and units and not putting pressure (unless you're mech and even so, every other race has better production advantages than Terran). Stop living in the macro only style, play aggressively and see how people respond differently.
The matchup of TvZ becomes much easier if you learn where you can take advantages and where you can put pressure. It's as simple as that.
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On May 30 2012 10:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid ...look up like 3-5 posts. I'm far from good, and yet I take out semi pro and pro zergs with a simple 'timing push' you could call it. If someone like me, almost 1k with 80 or so games, can beat a 1450+ masters zerg in the current patch, it's not nearly as hard as people make it seem. I never even used to do reactor hellion anyways. Hellions are still effective, you just can't sit outside their base with 4 and be invulnerable. Change your playstyle. Go watch those games, try a new build. TvZ is very micro intensive, so if your micro is suspect, your TvZ will be suspect.
You're a hero to this thread, jeffrey. I looked over all of the replays and they look pretty damn solid for the most part. What some people don't understand is that this build isn't necessarily meant to kill your opponent, it simply does damage and puts you in a better position for a macro game. It just happens to kill people half the time is all...
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Does anybody know some good, macro-oriented two base tank pushes/timings in TvP? I remember reading that Supernova did something like that against Hero in the most recent GSL.
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On May 30 2012 11:50 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:43 Starshaped wrote:On May 30 2012 10:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid ...look up like 3-5 posts. I'm far from good, and yet I take out semi pro and pro zergs with a simple 'timing push' you could call it. If someone like me, almost 1k with 80 or so games, can beat a 1450+ masters zerg in the current patch, it's not nearly as hard as people make it seem. I never even used to do reactor hellion anyways. Hellions are still effective, you just can't sit outside their base with 4 and be invulnerable. Change your playstyle. Go watch those games, try a new build. TvZ is very micro intensive, so if your micro is suspect, your TvZ will be suspect. Beating some Zergs with a "timing push" doesn't make it an easy matchup. Macro games are incredibly difficult vs good Zergs. I mean, I've beaten great Zergs with "timing pushes" but that's anecdotal and doesn't really say anything. Specifically when you win with a "timing push" or some sort of gimmick it is never a stable win. Stuff gets figured out and what matters will always be the normal macro games. I know the feeling of just crushing your opponent with some timing or harass or whatever and thinking "man this matchup is easy" but wait until you get a few games where your push is shut down easily and you start questioning yourself and the matchup a lot more. Personally, I've given up any hope of consistently doing damage early on against Zerg. There comes a point on the ladder where the opponent is just too good and takes minimal damage from whatever is thrown at them, so I'm experimenting more with quick 3rd builds and just going super econ focused. Of course, it's map dependant. I don't understand this logic. Do you know what timing pushes are? Why is that a gimmick? Why is that NOT a stable win? Why do people feel the need to be like MACRO UP, 4-5 BASES, 50 MINUTE GAMES, ONLY WAY TO PROPERLY PLAY. If you watch any of his replays that he's posted (and I have), you can easily see that the push doesn't always kill people. And it'll turn into a macro game. Playing Terran is all about putting pressure on the opponent, especially TvZ. The race isn't great at sitting back and just making bases and units and not putting pressure (unless you're mech and even so, every other race has better production advantages than Terran). Stop living in the macro only style, play aggressively and see how people respond differently. The matchup of TvZ becomes much easier if you learn where you can take advantages and where you can put pressure. It's as simple as that.
My point is simply that it's foolish to say a matchup is fine by showing a replay or two where a "timing" does a significant amount of damage. I mean, if you ever straight up win with a timing push it almost certainly means the Zerg messed up and you shouldn't think too much about the game or show it as evidence that the matchup is fine or easy.
Obviously you always need to be harassing a Zerg, or he wins. But I think it's a lot more stable to go for a quick 3rd so that your harass doesn't need to do as much damage and you keep up in macro. Put simply: I don't want to have to rely on doing a ton of damage with harass/push to stay in the game.
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On May 30 2012 12:05 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:50 Chaggi wrote:On May 30 2012 11:43 Starshaped wrote:On May 30 2012 10:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid ...look up like 3-5 posts. I'm far from good, and yet I take out semi pro and pro zergs with a simple 'timing push' you could call it. If someone like me, almost 1k with 80 or so games, can beat a 1450+ masters zerg in the current patch, it's not nearly as hard as people make it seem. I never even used to do reactor hellion anyways. Hellions are still effective, you just can't sit outside their base with 4 and be invulnerable. Change your playstyle. Go watch those games, try a new build. TvZ is very micro intensive, so if your micro is suspect, your TvZ will be suspect. Beating some Zergs with a "timing push" doesn't make it an easy matchup. Macro games are incredibly difficult vs good Zergs. I mean, I've beaten great Zergs with "timing pushes" but that's anecdotal and doesn't really say anything. Specifically when you win with a "timing push" or some sort of gimmick it is never a stable win. Stuff gets figured out and what matters will always be the normal macro games. I know the feeling of just crushing your opponent with some timing or harass or whatever and thinking "man this matchup is easy" but wait until you get a few games where your push is shut down easily and you start questioning yourself and the matchup a lot more. Personally, I've given up any hope of consistently doing damage early on against Zerg. There comes a point on the ladder where the opponent is just too good and takes minimal damage from whatever is thrown at them, so I'm experimenting more with quick 3rd builds and just going super econ focused. Of course, it's map dependant. I don't understand this logic. Do you know what timing pushes are? Why is that a gimmick? Why is that NOT a stable win? Why do people feel the need to be like MACRO UP, 4-5 BASES, 50 MINUTE GAMES, ONLY WAY TO PROPERLY PLAY. If you watch any of his replays that he's posted (and I have), you can easily see that the push doesn't always kill people. And it'll turn into a macro game. Playing Terran is all about putting pressure on the opponent, especially TvZ. The race isn't great at sitting back and just making bases and units and not putting pressure (unless you're mech and even so, every other race has better production advantages than Terran). Stop living in the macro only style, play aggressively and see how people respond differently. The matchup of TvZ becomes much easier if you learn where you can take advantages and where you can put pressure. It's as simple as that. My point is simply that it's foolish to say a matchup is fine by showing a replay or two where a "timing" does a significant amount of damage. I mean, if you ever straight up win with a timing push it almost certainly means the Zerg messed up and you shouldn't think too much about the game or show it as evidence that the matchup is fine or easy. Obviously you always need to be harassing a Zerg, or he wins. But I think it's a lot more stable to go for a quick 3rd so that your harass doesn't need to do as much damage and you keep up in macro. Put simply: I don't want to have to rely on doing a ton of damage with harass/push to stay in the game.
Totally agree with you, couldn´t have explained better. Thank you very much!
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On May 30 2012 12:05 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:50 Chaggi wrote:On May 30 2012 11:43 Starshaped wrote:On May 30 2012 10:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 30 2012 10:06 Birdfood wrote:
Its so hard for terrans to beat zergs now after the queen and overload buff.... =.= Its stupid ...look up like 3-5 posts. I'm far from good, and yet I take out semi pro and pro zergs with a simple 'timing push' you could call it. If someone like me, almost 1k with 80 or so games, can beat a 1450+ masters zerg in the current patch, it's not nearly as hard as people make it seem. I never even used to do reactor hellion anyways. Hellions are still effective, you just can't sit outside their base with 4 and be invulnerable. Change your playstyle. Go watch those games, try a new build. TvZ is very micro intensive, so if your micro is suspect, your TvZ will be suspect. Beating some Zergs with a "timing push" doesn't make it an easy matchup. Macro games are incredibly difficult vs good Zergs. I mean, I've beaten great Zergs with "timing pushes" but that's anecdotal and doesn't really say anything. Specifically when you win with a "timing push" or some sort of gimmick it is never a stable win. Stuff gets figured out and what matters will always be the normal macro games. I know the feeling of just crushing your opponent with some timing or harass or whatever and thinking "man this matchup is easy" but wait until you get a few games where your push is shut down easily and you start questioning yourself and the matchup a lot more. Personally, I've given up any hope of consistently doing damage early on against Zerg. There comes a point on the ladder where the opponent is just too good and takes minimal damage from whatever is thrown at them, so I'm experimenting more with quick 3rd builds and just going super econ focused. Of course, it's map dependant. I don't understand this logic. Do you know what timing pushes are? Why is that a gimmick? Why is that NOT a stable win? Why do people feel the need to be like MACRO UP, 4-5 BASES, 50 MINUTE GAMES, ONLY WAY TO PROPERLY PLAY. If you watch any of his replays that he's posted (and I have), you can easily see that the push doesn't always kill people. And it'll turn into a macro game. Playing Terran is all about putting pressure on the opponent, especially TvZ. The race isn't great at sitting back and just making bases and units and not putting pressure (unless you're mech and even so, every other race has better production advantages than Terran). Stop living in the macro only style, play aggressively and see how people respond differently. The matchup of TvZ becomes much easier if you learn where you can take advantages and where you can put pressure. It's as simple as that. My point is simply that it's foolish to say a matchup is fine by showing a replay or two where a "timing" does a significant amount of damage. I mean, if you ever straight up win with a timing push it almost certainly means the Zerg messed up and you shouldn't think too much about the game or show it as evidence that the matchup is fine or easy. Obviously you always need to be harassing a Zerg, or he wins. But I think it's a lot more stable to go for a quick 3rd so that your harass doesn't need to do as much damage and you keep up in macro. Put simply: I don't want to have to rely on doing a ton of damage with harass/push to stay in the game.
I think it's pretty silly of you to say that without actually trying/understanding the build. You can very easily macro up. In fact, half the time with that build, I get a CC as I'm moving across the map. As long as you're trading effectively, you're not gonna be far behind.
And I know for a fact that he's used the build for months, cause I specifically asked him about it when he first was trying it out. Point is, if you don't wanna play an aggressive style, then sure, okay. But to count out timing builds simply cause they're "timings", means you really don't understand the matchup.
edit: let me phrase it better
If you're not exploiting holes in the current meta game, at ANY point in the game - you're doing it wrong. That's literally what timings are. If Protoss start to go Nexus first every single game, you bet I'm gonna stop opening no gas 1 rax expand and go for reactor hellion, or even a quick 3 OC. There's pretty much a reason why MC won 3 GSL's based on timing attacks basically and why ForGG won his MSL championship too.
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