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Procify
United States52 Posts
I feel like banshees present much stronger map control, especially with the most recent patch increasing the effectiveness of queens vs helions. If you get a tech lab on a starport, get 2 banshees and a raven, you can bring much more to the table and even put on powerful enough harass to sometimes deny a third, or at least get drone kills. Are we slowly working our way into the new meta? Or is Helion opener still good? | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On May 30 2012 13:01 Procify wrote: Can anyone explain to me if helion openers are still good? I feel like banshees present much stronger map control, especially with the most recent patch increasing the effectiveness of queens vs helions. If you get a tech lab on a starport, get 2 banshees and a raven, you can bring much more to the table and even put on powerful enough harass to sometimes deny a third, or at least get drone kills. Are we slowly working our way into the new meta? Or is Helion opener still good? I've had a lot of success with really greedy zergs that have 2-3 queens at the front defending, and I'd have 6-8 hellions and just run by and fry a shit ton of drones. But that's really against stupid players. I like banshee's though, they can actually deny a 3rd and I don't worry about roach all-in's | ||
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ultimania92
United States30 Posts
What could I have done to improve over this game? I can't see what I could have done. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On May 30 2012 13:46 ultimania92 wrote: http://drop.sc/188588 What could I have done to improve over this game? I can't see what I could have done. I hate to be "that guy" but typically a little more information is given, including what you think you did well, what you think you did poorly, what your opponent did, and where you think the game went from being even to being lost. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On May 30 2012 13:46 ultimania92 wrote: http://drop.sc/188588 What could I have done to improve over this game? I can't see what I could have done. 1) Could build CC on low ground. You're not really hiding anything anymore. You already showed no gas, might as well 2) Why are your marines in your base, should be lower so you can get some hits in. 3) wow you pulled way too many SCVs 4) why did you get concussive first? might as well get stim if you're not gonna be aggressive with your forces 5) 8 minutes, no idea what he's doing. You don't know if it's a 1 base, how many gases at the natural, if he has a 3rd, etc 6) move out without medivacs, and get trapped by FF's in an awful position. you need to engage better. Why send your entire army to his 3rd? Just send 1 marine/scv and you can get the same amount of info 7) holy crap why don't you scan his natural, blind vikings? it's so obvious that he's going templar and no ghost academy in sight - this is gonna be bad 8) engaging in an awful place, and took a money storm 9) why do you have 2 ghost academies? 10) oh my, he just rolled into you, lucky he walked a few templar to your face before storming Basically, you didn't scout, which means you made some counter units when you could've been making medivacs and because of that, your ghost academy was really late you engaged really really poorly and gave away a lot of units you didn't really know his 3rd base timing, which is arguably the most important base to actually know oh and you had 1? ghost made, you need a lot more. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On May 30 2012 13:46 ultimania92 wrote: http://drop.sc/188588 What could I have done to improve over this game? I can't see what I could have done. I'm looking at it right now, and I'll put things down as I go along. Your opening was alright, you could have put down your bunker earlier, lifted your depots, etc.. at 9:30, he has a 10 harvester lead, and he's up about 10 supply. Part of that is because you got supply-blocked multiple times. You also have literally zero information on what your opponent is doing, and you have no map control beyond your natural. 11:45, you walk straight up the ramp, blind as a bat and get diced by FFs. At least you nailed all the sentries. Major over saturation of your natural, you have around 16 SCVs mining in your main, including gas, and double that at the natural. 14:00 still blind. No idea what he's doing, no map vision, no idea what tech he's going. So you blindly make vikings. Go figure. 15:30 Yay you finally scan his ramp! You see a templar archives, and an archon moving around. So why would you charge up the ramp with a mainly marine force knowing that there's a giant possibility of templar waiting with storms? You sit in a storm, kills about a third of your force, and all the surviving marines are deep red, you're very lucky he rushed his second storm. 16:10 And then you go blindly drop his main -.- See a pattern here? If you had bothered scanning with your 100 energy CC, you would have seen stalkers and cannons waiting. As it is, you donate your entire bio force, nearly entirely in the red I might add, for a cannon, a stalker, and 5 or 6 zealots. You're now 40 supply behind. You also need more production buildings as you have marines and marauders queued up all the way on every single rax you have. 19:30 He pretty much just rolls over you, it would have been much more one-sided he hadn't fucked up his Templar control and let most of them die without a single storm. And while you're busy microing 8 marines and 4 medivacs against three immortals, he has 4 zealots and an archon gutting your heavily oversaturated main mineral line kills about 35 SCVs. And you decided to drop MULEs to mine at your natural. Which die almost instantly. After that battle, you decided to make a marine-only force, even though you have 1k gas banked. Zero ghosts. And then you go blindly drop his main again, which goes about as well as the first attempt. You're continuing to make mass marines btw, with only 4 medivacs. You stim in trying to save your third, he attacks up your main ramp. You decide to fight at your main's ramp, where only a third of your marines can fire. Third stim in a row. One storm kills 30 marines. GG. | ||
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Yilias
United States20 Posts
On May 30 2012 13:46 ultimania92 wrote: http://drop.sc/188588 What could I have done to improve over this game? I can't see what I could have done. Just writing down notes as I watch: The zealot/stalker/stalker poke did more damage than it should. If you gasless FE, you need to either start a bunker by 4:30 or opt to defend the high ground behind a wall. You also need to confirm that he's expanding. If he'd been doing a 3/4 gate, you would have died right there. You get supply blocked a few times between ~35 and 50 food and for quite a while at 118, which is obviously bad, and leads into the next point. Your worker production should be better. You have 33 SCVs at 10:00, you should have around 10 more than that. Later on at 14:00 you only have 49, when you should be at or approaching your goal of 60-65 SCVs. You ended up economically behind simply from not making enough workers. When you drop your starport, you should make sure you take all 4 gasses. Medivacs are very gas heavy, a single reactor port uses 3 geysers worth of gas. If you go for 3rax port, I suggest not pushing without making the medivacs, you should get some use of out your investment in building the factory and starport. If you'd had 2-4 medivacs with your attack you probably would have rolled his zero AoE army and won right there. When you do your 2 base push, you should drop your third behind it. The push prevents him from attacking while it's building. When you start your third, also start a ghost academy. If he is going storm first it sets you up to begin ghost production, and if he's going collosi first you're prepared for the tech switch later. If you see HTs, dont attack up a ramp into storm. It didn't work out too badly this time, but if he'd had a few sentries you would have been FFed in and your whole army wiped out. Also, the second you see templar tech and you don't have a ghost tech, start a ghost academy. Don't drop with all your units in the red, let them heal up first. That attack lost you 3 medivacs worth of bio to kill a cannon and a few zealots. Although you do want to stop at 4 medivacs against collosi first to begin viking production, you don't need to stop medivac production against storm first. Going up to 8 medivacs is excellent against zealot/archon compositions. The game is essentially over at the twenty minute mark unfortunately. He attacked with an army that had a dozen HTs while you had no ghosts out. No amount of micro is going to win you that fight. The only reason you managed to stabilize was because he decided to stop attacking because he knew how far ahead he was. You may have had a chance if you had grabbed all your workers and brought them with your last group of counter attack marines to his third, but even then it would have been slim. TLDR You need to time your gasses, medivac and ghost tech better. You need to improve your worker production. | ||
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Schnitzelboi
1 Post
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JYUUU
France5 Posts
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
drop.sc/188663 drop.sc/188664 drop.sc/188665 EDIT: I'm diamond but that shouldn't make any difference. | ||
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DifuntO
Greece2376 Posts
I never lost to mass hydras though,they are slow off creep,so i take bases and make a ton of racks.It's just kinda annoying,like TvT marine battles,it ends when he runs out of money. So i was wondering if there's a better way to deal with them. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 30 2012 11:43 Starshaped wrote: Beating some Zergs with a "timing push" doesn't make it an easy matchup. Macro games are incredibly difficult vs good Zergs. I mean, I've beaten great Zergs with "timing pushes" but that's anecdotal and doesn't really say anything. Specifically when you win with a "timing push" or some sort of gimmick it is never a stable win. Stuff gets figured out and what matters will always be the normal macro games. I know the feeling of just crushing your opponent with some timing or harass or whatever and thinking "man this matchup is easy" but wait until you get a few games where your push is shut down easily and you start questioning yourself and the matchup a lot more. Personally, I've given up any hope of consistently doing damage early on against Zerg. There comes a point on the ladder where the opponent is just too good and takes minimal damage from whatever is thrown at them, so I'm experimenting more with quick 3rd builds and just going super econ focused. Of course, it's map dependant. I only call it that, because I push out at a timing, with an army. I take a third behind it, drop 2nd ebay and armory, starport, 2 more rax, and 2nd fac... It's not all in, by any means, and by about ~10 min my third has dropped. I can play the same zerg multiple times, and do the exact same build, and still be set up nicely to go into the mid game. It's not a gimmick. | ||
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xtcxtc
United States1 Post
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On May 30 2012 18:23 DifuntO wrote: How do you deal with mass Hydralisks in TvZ? I use marine tank but both die really quicly so we just keep trading armies. I never lost to mass hydras though,they are slow off creep,so i take bases and make a ton of racks.It's just kinda annoying,like TvT marine battles,it ends when he runs out of money. So i was wondering if there's a better way to deal with them. they're like more expensive marines that are slow so tank tank tank | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
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Kamelixs
Sweden88 Posts
Also, when going for a 1 rax expo (t-zain style for example) How do you most efficently scout a 1 base 1-1-1 allin, and stop it without too many losses? | ||
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Brolettuce
United States48 Posts
On May 30 2012 23:20 Kamelixs wrote: Something I really need help with is dealing with harrass in TvT. What's the most efficent way to deal with medivacs and counterattacks? Turret rings around your bases? Not rallying your army to the front (if you are further ahead on the map than your opponent) Leaving some tanks and marines back home while still having a forward set rally? A combination? Even if I got a 2-3ish base contain on my opponent I sometimes lose because drops kill my base since I've got no army there Also, when going for a 1 rax expo (t-zain style for example) How do you most efficently scout a 1 base 1-1-1 allin, and stop it without too many losses? If you know he is going to be doing harassment with medivacs ( especially a person going bio ) its a good idea to keep some units where you think he is most likely going to be to drop etc, so u can intercept his medivac. If you're going bio yourself, you could do that, and keep the rest of your bio and tanks if u have any at your natural or your 3rd etc. If you are going mech, it will be a good idea once you have 3 base economy to get a turret ring with sensory towers to deal with the drops. Until then, have a few hellions and a tank sieged against your cc, and you should be fine against anything. If your reaction time is slow or you know you don't have the best map awareness ( watching your map, keeping xel control etc ) make sensory towers so you are able to see the drop incoming and bring the proper units to defend it. You should only be rallying to your natural or ur 3rd, and keep the units at the contain and reinforce every once in a while. So when he drops, you will still have some units back at home | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
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Chicken Chaser
United States533 Posts
On May 31 2012 00:29 The KY wrote: Did I miss something? Why in the last 4 TvT's I've played has everyone rushed to ravens? Who does that? Does it ever work? Are they following it up with a 1/1/1 tank push? It could be to secure air control while stopping cloaked banshee opens | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On May 31 2012 00:47 Chicken Chaser wrote: Are they following it up with a 1/1/1 tank push? It could be to secure air control while stopping cloaked banshee opens Nah they take it to 2 base. I can't really say what their long term plan is since I usually just kill them as it enters mid game. Seriously though I just played another guy and he did the same thing. Weird. | ||
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