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Double masters terran and single masters eu here. Playing as terran vs toss and zerg nowadays feels to me like trying to climb a hill on your hands instead of feet; you might succeed but it is far more likely to fail especially if you go too long.
That being said, i believe both toss and zerg at the current level I am, require far less to win an engagement than terran does. What you could do, however, is, when gaining an advantage against a collosus player, to just pull your natural scvs and go at him. My decision to do this is twofold; first, in my view terran has no way or at least not that good way to capitalize his advantage against toss, I have had situations where I get a third before the toss then deny his third, but tosses nowadays dont attack. They patiently upgrade and make power units until it comes a time where you cant deny their third. I usually take fourth and fifth and even sixth seventh and eith on some maps but if he wins an engagement, you are dead regardless of your eco advantage.
My second reason for pulling my scvs is that I simply refuse having to do an average of 300 apm while the toss has to a move and spam t here and there. So I just take everything once I have reduced the number of collosi during midgame, and go for it using their micro strategy (a move). You either win or lose but at least the nightmare of having to avoid storms and lasers will be soon over.
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On May 25 2012 01:53 sieksdekciw wrote:
Double masters terran and single masters eu here. Playing as terran vs toss and zerg nowadays feels to me like trying to climb a hill on your hands instead of feet; you might succeed but it is far more likely to fail especially if you go too long.
That being said, i believe both toss and zerg at the current level I am, require far less to win an engagement than terran does. What you could do, however, is, when gaining an advantage against a collosus player, to just pull your natural scvs and go at him. My decision to do this is twofold; first, in my view terran has no way or at least not that good way to capitalize his advantage against toss, I have had situations where I get a third before the toss then deny his third, but tosses nowadays dont attack. They patiently upgrade and make power units until it comes a time where you cant deny their third. I usually take fourth and fifth and even sixth seventh and eith on some maps but if he wins an engagement, you are dead regardless of your eco advantage.
My second reason for pulling my scvs is that I simply refuse having to do an average of 300 apm while the toss has to a move and spam t here and there. So I just take everything once I have reduced the number of collosi during midgame, and go for it using their micro strategy (a move). You either win or lose but at least the nightmare of having to avoid storms and lasers will be soon over.
--Needs a replay
--It sounds like you're not capitalizing on your economy advantage, and or are expanding too much. You only need to be one base ahead of a Protoss to have an advantage.
--To take advantage of your economy, make a couple of macro Orbitals, and sacrifice 4 SCV's per macro orbital you have, and build 15+ Barracks and at least 3 Starports if it gets super late game.
--To win against Protoss even after losing an engagement, pre-emptively make PF's at large chokes to delay his army before you have that extra production round out that you need to crush his army or save your expansion.
EDIT: Last thing, try going 2 ghosts per Archon, 1 ghost per HT, 1 marauder per Stalker, 2 marines per Zealot, 3 vikings per Colossus, and as many medivacs as you can afford(preferably 8-12). These numbers are ripped from Drewbie's TvX guide, and they work amazingly. Marines, Ghosts, and Medivacs are so underrated in TvP.
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Yep a replay would really help to assess what went wrong!
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mid-diamond Terran here.
Since the queen buff, I have been having real trouble with Spanishiwa style no gas/fast 3rd/mass queens builds. My go-to build was 1rax FE followed by 3 rax and combat shield. When combat shield finishes I push out with ~20 marines. Before the patch it was a pretty good all-purpose timing. But now vs Spanishiwa style builds I just kill a couple of queens, which doesn't matter much because they have 4 or more of them so they have plenty of larva. And then I am behind economically in a big way; they take all 6 gasses and go mass muta or mass infestor or even just mass zergling/baneling and I get rolled in the mid/mid-late game.
What do I do to force Zerg to make units in the early game? Apply more fake pressure before combat shield finishes? Find a different build?
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hi guys, im a high masters player and im having trouble against the double evo into fast ultralisk play. Im using the helion into cc into 2 dropship timing push like polt does but i cant seem to do a good pressure with the timing (mass lings usually creush it) and then from there on i just feel as if im playing behind already. Later on in the game he just transitions into ultras and i play super aggresively. I drop everywhere usually killing bases but it deosnt even matter becuz my upgrades seem to be a tad behind and i just get ran over. I know i dindt include a replay but im just looking for general statements to help me tweak my play.
thanks
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On May 25 2012 09:25 monkybone wrote:
On May 25 2012 08:47 ZeroTalent wrote:
mid-diamond Terran here.
Since the queen buff, I have been having real trouble with Spanishiwa style no gas/fast 3rd/mass queens builds. My go-to build was 1rax FE followed by 3 rax and combat shield. When combat shield finishes I push out with ~20 marines. Before the patch it was a pretty good all-purpose timing. But now vs Spanishiwa style builds I just kill a couple of queens, which doesn't matter much because they have 4 or more of them so they have plenty of larva. And then I am behind economically in a big way; they take all 6 gasses and go mass muta or mass infestor or even just mass zergling/baneling and I get rolled in the mid/mid-late game.
What do I do to force Zerg to make units in the early game? Apply more fake pressure before combat shield finishes? Find a different build?
There are so many defensive Zerg openings that crushes this attack. Don't blame it on the queens, you have just met overly greedy Zergs. You should expect to lose all your marines and do minimal damage in the first place.
Thanks for the help. Oh wait, never mind.
More constructively, the point isn't to do damage so much as force units and keep the zerg from getting too far ahead economically. My micro is terrible which is why I didn't like reactored hellion openings even before the queen buff. Against two-base zerg you just don't attack; just deny creep versus, poke around, etc. Against a 3-base zerg I could almost always punish the expo, even if they made defensive banelings or roaches. But now against a mass queen opening I can't get much done.
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I have a few questions about early pressure vZ off of a gasless FE.
On 2 player maps, is it worth it to scout after depot and 14 ebay block into 18CC, or am I better off just going 16CC? It seems like it should be, but it doesn't seem too popular, so I feel I'm missing something.
Is it worth it to go 18CC instead of 16CC in order to do the 1 rax bunker rush that is commonly seen in 13 gas hellion expands?
And lastly, on qxc's stream he's been going 18CC and then dropping his bunker outside the choke into the Zerg's natural to delay creep spread (not like a bunker rush, but where you'd normally put your hellions). Is this a good idea?
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Hello fellow Underpowered terran friends!
I have a hard time whit terran lately. Ive improved my speed and somegames i reach 200+ apm but regular apm is like 150+ if i play normal.
its so hard to micro vs a massive zerg force.. Even if u split perfectly and win the engagement, you dont have much units left, and all they have to do is hotkey> S> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and army is up again..
i got demoted a week ago from diamond, but im on a winning streak now again.. (easy players) but when i meet good ppl that know how stuff works.. i dont win.. toss upgrades theyr units and have archons and colosus and templar.. even whit ghost.. they stil get energy left to storm me the hell out of the game. here are some 2 replays= can you tell me what i do wrong, or is it what my friend said, its Just the engagements that sucks?
tvz = http://drop.sc/185288
tvp= http://drop.sc/185002
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On May 25 2012 20:25 BimBoHunTeR wrote:Hello fellow Underpowered terran friends! I have a hard time whit terran lately. Ive improved my speed and somegames i reach 200+ apm but regular apm is like 150+ if i play normal. its so hard to micro vs a massive zerg force.. Even if u split perfectly and win the engagement, you dont have much units left, and all they have to do is hotkey> S> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and army is up again.. i got demoted a week ago from diamond, but im on a winning streak now again.. (easy players) but when i meet good ppl that know how stuff works.. i dont win.. toss upgrades theyr units and have archons and colosus and templar.. even whit ghost.. they stil get energy left to storm me the hell out of the game. here are some 2 replays= can you tell me what i do wrong, or is it what my friend said, its Just the engagements that sucks? tvz = http://drop.sc/185288tvp= http://drop.sc/185002
I didn't watch the replays (no access to SC2 atm), but improving your mentality might help a lot. All this whine at the end of each game is pointless. From a player's perspective, trying to improve, you should never blame "imbalance" for your losses, because this might take away a lot of things you can learn from your games. Whether or not the game is imbalanced is irrelevant, just try to see what you did good, what you did bad, what your opponent did good and bad etc. and go from there.
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On May 25 2012 21:11 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 20:25 BimBoHunTeR wrote:Hello fellow Underpowered terran friends! I have a hard time whit terran lately. Ive improved my speed and somegames i reach 200+ apm but regular apm is like 150+ if i play normal. its so hard to micro vs a massive zerg force.. Even if u split perfectly and win the engagement, you dont have much units left, and all they have to do is hotkey> S> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and army is up again.. i got demoted a week ago from diamond, but im on a winning streak now again.. (easy players) but when i meet good ppl that know how stuff works.. i dont win.. toss upgrades theyr units and have archons and colosus and templar.. even whit ghost.. they stil get energy left to storm me the hell out of the game. here are some 2 replays= can you tell me what i do wrong, or is it what my friend said, its Just the engagements that sucks? tvz = http://drop.sc/185288tvp= http://drop.sc/185002 I didn't watch the replays (no access to SC2 atm), but improving your mentality might help a lot. All this whine at the end of each game is pointless. From a player's perspective, trying to improve, you should never blame "imbalance" for your losses, because this might take away a lot of things you can learn from your games. Whether or not the game is imbalanced is irrelevant, just try to see what you did good, what you did bad, what your opponent did good and bad etc. and go from there. i know that and i se replays they have so little apm compared to me.. i have better upgrades.. i have more units. more bases.. ofc i get frustrated.. if u have better upgrades, you should be in better shape... i normaly Never whine or bm or anything like that. but i where just frustrated atm.
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On May 25 2012 00:46 AcesAnoka wrote:
Masters terran here,
what are your follow ups after a 1rax fe against a zerg? what build order do you do? and could you give me a sample BO?
Also for TvP, after a 1rax fe, what build do you guys do? i try 1rax fe into either 5rax or 3rax. Is there a nice BO that exists for without delayed tech?
Also the tvp mma tank build, anyone got a replay for that or BO?
thanks!!
pls respond
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Hello guys. Long time reader, first time poster.
I'd be very grateful if some kind soul reviewed my replay and showed me all the mistakes i did and how i could approach this game better. It was one of my first games when i get matched against platinum level player (me being silver) and i had a feeling that i had that game and i would've won that if it wasnt just for those couple terrible engagements. Which to be frank, i don't have enough knowledge and experience to tell how i could engage better vs Z. Anyways here it goes!
Replay
http://drop.sc/185843
Short description
TvZ (me being terran) on taldarim's altar.
We spawn on the opposite sides of the map. I decide to get early CC and play out macro game. Zerg opted for pretty much the same. I leave SCV at his 3rd (one with rocks) to get a general idea of when is he gonna go for 3rd. I amass pretty nice army meanwhile and decide to push at 11 min mark with group of marines, medivacs and two tanks on his natural (i wanted to abuse the low ground siege tanks and just attack his 2nd while expecting attack from flank. Which i tried to cover with marines) But i got smashed. I try to sit back a bit and macro and try going for another push. I amassed another army and decided to check for his 4th/kill his 3rd. I got flanked at the xel'naga tower and killed again. I keep on macroing. Expanding to keep myself on at least 3 bases that i can mine from. I do couple of drops to deny his 4th. Other drops at mainbase and natural get shut down pretty quick. Later on two engagements happen with his broodlords/infestor/ling/bling/corruptor mix and while i put some fight in the first one and smashed 2nd zerg army, i couldn't get myself to push and possibly end it. Meanwhile zerg just massed another army and straightout killed me while i tried some desperate drops to drag his attention away from my base.
TLDR; I thought i had an advantage all game long until late. I had some terrible engagements and i'm asking for help with it.
I wasnt too sure how to approach things. Especially early timing attacks/pushes
What i think i did wrong that game
-Lack of micro and marines splits to mitigate some damage from banelings
-Terrible engagements at xel'naga towers
-Upgrades were pretty late.
-I think i didnt have enough production facilities to remax my army in remotely short time
-Lack of agression at the start (i had plenty of marines but i was bit afraid of pushing in to zergs natural, i know how to sttuter step micro but i wasnt sure if it'd be enough)
If any experienced/high level player could point out my mistakes and how i could fix them or what approach i should take, i'd be very grateful!
Cheers
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On May 25 2012 00:46 AcesAnoka wrote:
Masters terran here,
what are your follow ups after a 1rax fe against a zerg? what build order do you do? and could you give me a sample BO?
Also for TvP, after a 1rax fe, what build do you guys do? i try 1rax fe into either 5rax or 3rax. Is there a nice BO that exists for without delayed tech?
Also the tvp mma tank build, anyone got a replay for that or BO?
thanks!!
1. 1 Rax FE into reactored hellions, into banshee. Either 2 banshees with cloak, or 2 banshees and 1 raven.
For replays for the former, MMA vs. Stephano @ IPL on Metropolis. Latter, Maru vs. July @ GSTL finals on Cloud Kingdom (game is free, since it's game 1 of the series)
2. 1 Rax FE into reactored hellions, 2 more barracks, then reactored starport. This build has a few variants. Some pros get early 3rd CC, followed by 2 Ebays.
See MMA vs. Stephano @ IPL on Cloud Kingdom, Polt vs. Symobol @ MSI Cup
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On May 25 2012 23:40 AcesAnoka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 00:46 AcesAnoka wrote:
Masters terran here,
what are your follow ups after a 1rax fe against a zerg? what build order do you do? and could you give me a sample BO?
Also for TvP, after a 1rax fe, what build do you guys do? i try 1rax fe into either 5rax or 3rax. Is there a nice BO that exists for without delayed tech?
Also the tvp mma tank build, anyone got a replay for that or BO?
thanks!! pls respond
I'll add for the TvZ:
1rax FE -> double gas -> reactor helli -> @100gas fac -> @100gas fac -> techlab on fac when done -> blueflame -> build hellis from your 3 fac, eventually get dual armory/tanks/thors etc. etc. depending on how the game goes.
I think that's my favourite TvZ build in general, but some maps are really difficult to harass on at all, like Shakuras or Daybreak, where I would instead recommend quick 3 CC.
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On May 26 2012 05:32 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 23:40 AcesAnoka wrote:On May 25 2012 00:46 AcesAnoka wrote:
Masters terran here,
what are your follow ups after a 1rax fe against a zerg? what build order do you do? and could you give me a sample BO?
Also for TvP, after a 1rax fe, what build do you guys do? i try 1rax fe into either 5rax or 3rax. Is there a nice BO that exists for without delayed tech?
Also the tvp mma tank build, anyone got a replay for that or BO?
thanks!! pls respond I'll add for the TvZ: 1rax FE -> double gas -> reactor helli -> @100gas fac -> @100gas fac -> techlab on fac when done -> blueflame -> build hellis from your 3 fac, eventually get dual armory/tanks/thors etc. etc. depending on how the game goes. I think that's my favourite TvZ build in general, but some maps are really difficult to harass on at all, like Shakuras or Daybreak, where I would instead recommend quick 3 CC.
I just find that mech is so weak to early mutas 2base roaches when u just have hellions, Would you mind sharing a replay countering that with mech?
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What is the actual build order (the order of +1, stim, factory, reactors) for the 1 rax expo into 3 rax medivac timing? I've seen so many variations but I'm not sure wich one is the best.
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Hey guys, I've been having a good amount of trouble dealing with hive tech zerg at the upper masters level. In the replay, I 1 rax FE and get a good number of marines and hellions to contain and damage the zerg player while getting up a third. I stay equal/ahead of the zerg in scv count and eventually move out for a push at 2-1 finished with marine/tank. I get to the middle and I have a terrible, terrible battle with 4 ultras and some critical fungals. Though that may have costed me the game my question is what you are supposed to do vs a zerg who goes stephano style straight into ultras. I feel that my 2-1 timing with just marines and a few tanks was too weak in general to fight the ultras and infestors. Should I have waited for marauder or something? help needed 
http://drop.sc/186104
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Hello fellow Underpowered terran friends!
I have a hard time whit terran lately. Ive improved my speed and somegames i reach 200+ apm but regular apm is like 150+ if i play normal.
its so hard to micro vs a massive zerg force.. Even if u split perfectly and win the engagement, you dont have much units left, and all they have to do is hotkey> S> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and army is up again..
i got demoted a week ago from diamond, but im on a winning streak now again.. (easy players) but when i meet good ppl that know how stuff works.. i dont win.. toss upgrades theyr units and have archons and colosus and templar.. even whit ghost.. they stil get energy left to storm me the hell out of the game. here are some 2 replays= can you tell me what i do wrong, or is it what my friend said, its Just the engagements that sucks?
tvz = http://drop.sc/185288
tvp= http://drop.sc/185002
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On May 26 2012 06:39 SKDN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2012 05:32 Starshaped wrote:On May 25 2012 23:40 AcesAnoka wrote:On May 25 2012 00:46 AcesAnoka wrote:
Masters terran here,
what are your follow ups after a 1rax fe against a zerg? what build order do you do? and could you give me a sample BO?
Also for TvP, after a 1rax fe, what build do you guys do? i try 1rax fe into either 5rax or 3rax. Is there a nice BO that exists for without delayed tech?
Also the tvp mma tank build, anyone got a replay for that or BO?
thanks!! pls respond I'll add for the TvZ: 1rax FE -> double gas -> reactor helli -> @100gas fac -> @100gas fac -> techlab on fac when done -> blueflame -> build hellis from your 3 fac, eventually get dual armory/tanks/thors etc. etc. depending on how the game goes. I think that's my favourite TvZ build in general, but some maps are really difficult to harass on at all, like Shakuras or Daybreak, where I would instead recommend quick 3 CC. I just find that mech is so weak to early mutas 2base roaches when u just have hellions, Would you mind sharing a replay countering that with mech?
I might be able to find a replay later if you still want, but I'll explain it in words first because it's a pretty simple rule to follow:
You send your first 2-4 hellions to scout the Zerg's third. Most Zergs going for macro play will already have a 3rd started by now, and sometimes even have it up (if they went for a ridiculously fast 3rd in response to your 1rax FE). So, right away here is the first thing to react to. If you scout no third (continuously check with hellions), you know it's either 2base muta or a 2base all-in. Also, if you scout that he has a 3rd but has little to no workers mining you know it's an all-in (generally roach/ling/bane).
In general against 2base play you want to get your armory after your blueflame, and start making thors. 1-2 thors before siege-tanks is actually the best way to deal with everything the 2base Zerg can throw at you. Obviously mutas will be shut down, but mass repair SCVs + thor(s) will also hold off roach-pushes pretty well (in addition to the marines/marauders you have + hellions). Whether or not you defend with your hellions is another question, and it's a decision you must make based on whether or not you think you can hold without them. Often times sending your hellions to roast his drones as he's going to all-in you is a great way to get ahead even if his push does a lot of damage.
If it's not a quick 2base all-in, then my rule is to stay on 2 bases as long as my opponent does. There's no need to be greedy. You can have a CC in-base but don't take a third until your opponent does because as far as you know he's going for a massive t2 push and you don't want to spread yourself too thin.
Of all my TvZ mech games I find that I most always win if my opponent does an all-in. What mech really fears is the 200/200 tech-switch abuse of the lategame, in my opinion.
Hope I helped =)
Edit: I might add that positioning is vital to defend all-ins, which means your base layout is vital. What I do after a 1rax FE is to add a bunker very close to my expansion (to prevent mass lings from harassing mineral line) and make a depot-wall from the ramp to my expansion CC. This means you have a tight little crevice where you can put your thor(s), and the only way to get to them is to walk through your mineral line. This leads to a lot of good defensive opportunities, like abusing hold-position SCVs to mess with the AI, and it means your opponent can't simply focus-fire your thor/bunker too easily. Most people will put their bunker at their natural ramp and try to wall-off there, but I find that a lot of all-ins will hit before your wall-off is done and you can instantly lose the game, which is why I do it the way I explained above.
I guess this stuff might require a replay to show it better. I'll see what I can find later tonight.
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EPT
