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United Kingdom38205 Posts
On April 09 2012 18:29 KenDM wrote:
About the modern TvT openers a la MKP. How do these openers fare against early Siege expansions, which are much, much safer to do?
You need to elaborate on at least the units we're talking about here Ken, MKP's probably got one of the biggest playbooks around when it comes to openers. I'm guessing you're thinking about early marine hellion play but even then there's a few different variations.
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Hi guys,
There's this 2 Siege tank drop opening I use in my TvZ's. In a recent TvT I was hit with the exact same thing. Now I didn't have any Vikings up. On my scan I saw a tank-producing factory and a naked Starport in the enemy base. On that moment, should I have produced Vikings ASAP? I also had an expo, and I KNOW he couldn't have with his build, but realized this too late. Should I just have continued my mining in the bottom base? Any insights on how to scout and react to this opener?
http://drop.sc/156644
EDIT: @ ABOVE POST
Yes, excuse me for a mistake, I actually meant Thorazains opening as Day9 explains in this daily:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-394-p1-terran-week-thorzain-s-tvt-5862954
ThorZain does this gassless 1Rax OC into expand. Then a 2nd Rax with both refineries, followed by another rax and tech lab + reactors and factory. In the first match, Puma also goes for a CC first and gassles into 2 rax after that.
I know that Sieged tanks can come out pretty quickly and in the lower leagues it would be an okay build against Banshees because of the marines, but how would these builds fare against Siege openers?
In other words, how wise is it to use infantry heavy builds in the lower leagues where a player like me does not have the micro (and thus not have the macro) to efficiently cover those early banshee harasses or against the brute force of early tanks?
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When I go FE against any race and see an allin coming, should I cut scvs to get enough units and bunkers up in time?
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On April 09 2012 21:54 Aquila- wrote:
When I go FE against any race and see an allin coming, should I cut scvs to get enough units and bunkers up in time?
yes,you should becuase the enermy cut harvestors as well and if we can hold ,we still win.
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On April 09 2012 21:54 Aquila- wrote:
When I go FE against any race and see an allin coming, should I cut scvs to get enough units and bunkers up in time?
but you should remember to make SCVs again, I've lost too many games where I just forgot and I overdefend and lost cause the all in'ing player expanded
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I have yet another replay I want your help with, this one leaves me wondering when and how to adapt to a situation. How do I scout for proxy'd double Starports? I had the Engineering Bay built starting on 6 minutes, threw down a scan. Nothing in his base. No expo. So I made a some Turrets and a Sensory Tower. I see some red dots in close air position. Scan it out: double Starports with Banshees. He destroyed my marines, forced me into my natural where I had enough turrets built. Than I finished my starport for a viking and the guy has 2 vikings waiting for me already. Now what do you do against that?
I had a 1-1-expo-1 thing going on, when in this match should I decide I need another rax or a starport prior to anything else? He could've proxied anything, can't just throw down mass turrets now can I?
http://drop.sc/156919
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I'm a Diamond Zerg who just started playing Terran and I don't understand why pros don't go marine/tank/medivac vs Protoss? So what I think you do is spread siege tanks abit, bait protoss army (before collosus) then stim away let tanks hit protoss ball and keep on doing this and reinforce with more marines? All I see on streams is marine/maurader/medivac and I don't understand how that is better than marine/tank/medivac? When you go MMM you just get owned by forcefields if you try engage up a ramp or if you get caught it's gg lose all your army? At least when you go marine/tank/medivac you can do small seige contain, drop a group of marines in a mineral line to split protoss army etc overall it seems way better than MMM to me, am I missing something?
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On April 10 2012 03:26 arena_say_what wrote:
I'm a Diamond Zerg who just started playing Terran and I don't understand why pros don't go marine/tank/medivac vs Protoss? So what I think you do is spread siege tanks abit, bait protoss army (before collosus) then stim away let tanks hit protoss ball and keep on doing this and reinforce with more marines? All I see on streams is marine/maurader/medivac and I don't understand how that is better than marine/tank/medivac? When you go MMM you just get owned by forcefields if you try engage up a ramp or if you get caught it's gg lose all your army? At least when you go marine/tank/medivac you can do small seige contain, drop a group of marines in a mineral line to split protoss army etc overall it seems way better than MMM to me, am I missing something?
there was like a discussion on marine tank at least right above you. like around last-this page.
Also seige contains don't really work vs protoss (Warp prism, immortals, etc,etc) in midgame+
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Does anyone at diamond-midmasters level make "standard" TvZ work? Meaning something like, reactor hellion into 2base marines+medivacs , or fast 3rd into push at maxed, or a 2base marine tank push.
For me, the game feels completely hopeless if I do anything like that. As in, I've pushed while 160 supply vs their 120 supply and still lost. Or the Z allins, fails, allins again, fails, and then goes on to win anyway. Meanwhile, if I do 12/14 rax or forgg's cloaked banshee into mech, the matchup feels completely different and winnable even if I don't kill them right away (probably because of all the indirect damage done, and also cuz mech's easy).
Just wondering if anyone else's experience is similar, and also if anyone at this level actually manages to make standard tvz work. As it is I'm on the verge of giving up on trying to play standard entirely.
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United Kingdom774 Posts
You just need to be careful and have good positioning. You will lose if you make rash attacks.
You could try to copy Maru's banshee/raven expo, that looked amazing vs July.
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I think I got my TvP down.... I don't see why pros don't incorporate Banshee/Raven into MMM+ Viking/Ghost.... seeing as you are already commited to air. I open Marine/Tank and skip marauder until late game because I like to turtle and keep the two base timing attack viable while spending gas on tank/raven/viking (6 rax (2 with no add-on) and a teched fact/port). But then I switch to air. Banshee with PDD should technically work when all their anti air is stalker and feedback. Then I add a reactor/lab on my last two rax and get the complete package (adding 3 more ports, two teched one reactor). Feedback has given me problems regardless, but that is the case either way. I think it is overlooked too often. There is no sense upgrading 3/3 Vikings and not incorporating all other air at the terran's disposal.
On the other hand, TvZ has given me nightmares. I have switched to pure mech with air LATE. Some Vikings in the mid game or maybe a banshee opening into mech play. If I go bio/mech I fall behind in upgrades after a failed 2-3 base push. I don't know what else to do. There is no sense not adding Ghosts into the late game, so I am going to start adding them off my one rax in the mid/late game, and focus on Air/Mech upgrades. The problem is I can't put pressure because I am not mobile and he spams too many sunkens and spores at his mineral line. Just wears me down. But with Ghosts I may be able to turn the tide. Here is hoping for a better season 7.
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Has MarineKing played bio in some TvTs during IPL4? I didn't see all of his games.
EDIT: or other terran players, for that matter
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Yo, I am high daimond that only plays vs masters now.Vs P and T i have around 85 % win rate,But vs zerg i have around 45 %.
I usually open whit reactor hellio to a fast 3 and double ebay.I camp until i have around 160-170 supply,2-2 marines and 1-0 tanks.But a good army of lings/blings and infestors just own me up.And then i have 4 bases and him around 5.He just tech's to ultras or brood lords and overwhelm me.I have around 100 supply when i have lost that army.Anyone that know what i can do better?
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How many SCV should i sacrifice for every additional OC in the Lategame?
How many SCV should i have at least?
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On April 09 2012 20:25 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:24 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Is anyone struggling with ling infestor TvZ still? I got quite a few reps of a demuslim like timing push that just destroys ling infestor. I'm finding MKP style mara/marine/BFhellion to be just so disgustingly good against zerg.
You can put on constant aggression, and no fear of mass lings. They 1a lings? Sac your army, and micro the hellions to clear them all out.
I'm doing this +1 stim CS marine marauder hellion push, into 5 rax 2 fac fast third, delayed starport to put on constant pressure on the ground and deny the third and heavy droning.
It's quite nice. can you elaborate on this MKP mara/marine/bfhellion style? and DeMuslim's timing push too? been wanting to mix up my TvZ in awhile
Here are some reps of it. Let me post those, then I'll tack out a BO if I can get it down.
http://drop.sc/155688 on friends name smurfing against 800 masters Z.
http://drop.sc/150357 1k zerg
http://drop.sc/150359 1.1k zerg
http://drop.sc/150360 900pt zerg
http://drop.sc/156972 against a good practice partner friend
http://drop.sc/156973 friends teammate 650 zerg
http://drop.sc/156971 1.1k zerg on keyd
http://drop.sc/157028 1k zerg mass ling bling -> ling bling muta intense game (22 min game, not a single tank made)
Yo, I am high daimond that only plays vs masters now.Vs P and T i have around 85 % win rate,But vs zerg i have around 45 %.
I usually open whit reactor hellio to a fast 3 and double ebay.I camp until i have around 160-170 supply,2-2 marines and 1-0 tanks.But a good army of lings/blings and infestors just own me up.And then i have 4 bases and him around 5.He just tech's to ultras or brood lords and overwhelm me.I have around 100 supply when i have lost that army.Anyone that know what i can do better?
Watch those reps. Stop being passive, it isn't easy to win that way unless you have baller macro and micro to control a huge army against ling infestor / ling bling muta / ultra ling bling etc etc
10 depot
12 rax
Right before rax finishes, take a guy off minerals to scout (~15 supply)
16 gas
17 marine
17 depot
17 OC
18 marine
19 scv
20 marine
(Upon zerg base - note gas, pool timing, and hatch timing. Keep SCV alive and just run around, he's to check if the spine crawler or not. If no spine, move out at 4 marines 1 scv. If spine, 3 marine 1 scv.)
21 scv
22 CC at natural
22 marine
22 factory
23 reactor on rax
24 depot low ground (start forming a wall off)
(Constant scv production)
25 rax (tech lab immediately after one is done)
25 rax
(factory stays naked, constant hellions gain mapcontrol+ scout for roaches)
39 (or 3/4 tech lab being done) ebay -> +1 attack once it's done.
Tech lab -> stim immediately
Remember you're on 2 base, making 3 marines 1 hellion 2 scvs per production cycle, so 2 depots at a time, no supply blocks.
This is where I deviate from demuslim, as I go marauders into the mix for a heavy punch. Once ebay is done, tech lab rax now makes only marauders.
~20-30 seconds on +1, start 2nd tech lab -> CS once it's done.
~9 min (72-78 supply 3rd CC starts)
-> start gas 2 and 3 as well as rax 4 and 5.
I hit around 10-1030 with 6-8 hellions, 6-8 marauders, 24-28 marines. Stim, cs, +1. +1 armor starts after +1 attack, I also get a 2nd factory, land first factory on a tech lab and start blue flame + hellions if I see ling infestor. If ling bling, muta ling bling, anything with any amount of blings, I get tanks and hellions.
From here out, it's on you. You're set up with 5 rax, 2 fac, and a port whenever you start it. You can forgo fast 2nd fac for a starport (against blings/mutas I do so). Start ebay #2 and armory at about 70% +1 armor being done.
And just for any doubt/reference I'm currently 1k+ masters ATM, trying for top8 1.1k this season.
edit -- don't know WHAT the fuck this guy was doing. 1.1k zerg that lost like 2 OLs and 6 lings to 4 marine poke -> then 2 hellion run by killed 8+ drones. What to do with this build after you do early game damage like that? Marauder/hellion all in.,
http://drop.sc/157009 example vs 1.1k Z
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I really need some kind of help defending againt drops. In a lot of games, I lose because of some massive doom drop, and I have no way to defend against these. I can't just leave a few marines in the back because they will be demolished by a 4-5 medivac drop, and I really don't want to move my whole army, as then I will lose a valuable position and possibly lose the game. I just lost 7 games in a row to this type of play, and I have no idea what to do! Help!
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On April 10 2012 07:21 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
I really need some kind of help defending againt drops. In a lot of games, I lose because of some massive doom drop, and I have no way to defend against these. I can't just leave a few marines in the back because they will be demolished by a 4-5 medivac drop, and I really don't want to move my whole army, as then I will lose a valuable position and possibly lose the game. I just lost 7 games in a row to this type of play, and I have no idea what to do! Help!
Always include replays. We can help you out so much more if we can get a better idea of what you're stuggling with.
As for general advice, I usually ring my main with turrets, and maybe my 4th on shukuras to defend against drops.
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On April 09 2012 21:13 KenDM wrote:
I know that Sieged tanks can come out pretty quickly and in the lower leagues it would be an okay build against Banshees because of the marines, but how would these builds fare against Siege openers?
In other words, how wise is it to use infantry heavy builds in the lower leagues where a player like me does not have the micro (and thus not have the macro) to efficiently cover those early banshee harasses or against the brute force of early tanks?
your biggest worry is a 1-1-1 build, which you can hold but you need to scout to see it coming (use the first scan from your second orbital to scan his main). You have to leave a marine in front of his base to know as soon as he pushes out, then you take all of your marines to his side of the map and engage, the purpose of this is so you make him siege up and slow down his push (if he sieges up - run away; if he doesn't siege just kill him, you should have enough units). By the time he gets to your base you'll have combat shields and +1 attack done, you might have to pull scvs to crush his push but that's ok cause you have a huge eco lead already... as far as you worrying about not having good enough micro/macro to do this the only way to find out if you can do it is by doing it, and the more you do it the easier it will get
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On April 10 2012 07:27 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 07:21 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
I really need some kind of help defending againt drops. In a lot of games, I lose because of some massive doom drop, and I have no way to defend against these. I can't just leave a few marines in the back because they will be demolished by a 4-5 medivac drop, and I really don't want to move my whole army, as then I will lose a valuable position and possibly lose the game. I just lost 7 games in a row to this type of play, and I have no idea what to do! Help! Always include replays. We can help you out so much more if we can get a better idea of what you're stuggling with. As for general advice, I usually ring my main with turrets, and maybe my 4th on shukuras to defend against drops.
I agree with this dude. Include replays when asking, because a 4-5 medic drop full means he has no army around anywhere else, so you base race him.
As soban said, after a certain point in TvT, it's time for sensor towers and turrets. Usually you can defend 2-3 bases with ease on most maps just with marines, sieged tanks, and stim+medics. After that, don't be afraid to drop 2-3 sensor towers, and 3-4 turrets on the edges of your bases.
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On April 10 2012 05:13 saaaa wrote:
How many SCV should i sacrifice for every additional OC in the Lategame?
How many SCV should i have at least?
after a little bit research i can answer my own question:
70-(4*OC)
Is the formula right? 
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EPT
