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On March 04 2012 14:36 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Hey guys, I know, we all know 1-1-1 is so strong vs Protoss. However....I rarely do it and therefore I would like to see how strong it is, but I cannot seem to find the guide for it...can someone tell me the BO for this 1-1-1?
There is no set 1-1-1. I do it sometimes, lemme dig up some replays. I do either marine tank banshee hit at like 8:45 or 9, or 3 hellion drop to raven tank banshee, cloakshee, etc.
http://drop.sc/125931 vs 700 pt master toss
http://drop.sc/125932 vs 500 pt master toss
http://drop.sc/125933 vs 550 masters toss
Just a few I ran across.
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High Master league player here. Does anyone have any tips / replays of really good players playing TvT or have advice for TvT? I didn't play ladder for 5 months cuz of school and now I get back into it and I'm getting raped every TvT but my TvP and TvZ are very strong still.
It's like no matter what I do they are raping me... if I don't prepare for Banshees I get stomped by cloak banshee so I have to worry about them every game. But if I play very safe and prepare for things they just have a 1 rax CC build that puts them way ahead of me and if I push they have bunkers and tanks to stop it. I'm very lost in TvT...
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On March 04 2012 14:36 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Hey guys, I know, we all know 1-1-1 is so strong vs Protoss. However....I rarely do it and therefore I would like to see how strong it is, but I cannot seem to find the guide for it...can someone tell me the BO for this 1-1-1?
depends which variation of the 1/1/1 you want to do.
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On March 04 2012 15:39 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 14:36 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Hey guys, I know, we all know 1-1-1 is so strong vs Protoss. However....I rarely do it and therefore I would like to see how strong it is, but I cannot seem to find the guide for it...can someone tell me the BO for this 1-1-1? There is no set 1-1-1. I do it sometimes, lemme dig up some replays. I do either marine tank banshee hit at like 8:45 or 9, or 3 hellion drop to raven tank banshee, cloakshee, etc. http://drop.sc/125931 vs 700 pt master toss http://drop.sc/125932 vs 500 pt master toss http://drop.sc/125933 vs 550 masters toss Just a few I ran across.
Two more. Just played a few ladder games, and drew back to back protoss and just for you I did two 1-1-1s to give two good examples.
http://drop.sc/125939 vs 650 masters
http://drop.sc/125940 vs 650 masters
Both 3 marine -> bunker + reactor 3 hellion drop into marine tank banshee.
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hey does anyone have good replays of a strong marine thor banshee style against protoss? its a very unlikely combo but i heard its very strong. i'm sick of my bio getting rolled by storm/collosus so i'm gonna try a new approach towards TvP since i absolutely hate it ):
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On March 04 2012 16:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 15:39 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 04 2012 14:36 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Hey guys, I know, we all know 1-1-1 is so strong vs Protoss. However....I rarely do it and therefore I would like to see how strong it is, but I cannot seem to find the guide for it...can someone tell me the BO for this 1-1-1? There is no set 1-1-1. I do it sometimes, lemme dig up some replays. I do either marine tank banshee hit at like 8:45 or 9, or 3 hellion drop to raven tank banshee, cloakshee, etc. http://drop.sc/125931 vs 700 pt master toss http://drop.sc/125932 vs 500 pt master toss http://drop.sc/125933 vs 550 masters toss Just a few I ran across. Two more. Just played a few ladder games, and drew back to back protoss and just for you I did two 1-1-1s to give two good examples. http://drop.sc/125939 vs 650 masters http://drop.sc/125940 vs 650 masters Both 3 marine -> bunker + reactor 3 hellion drop into marine tank banshee.
Haha thanks for that. Will definitely watch replays now 
Actually with 1-1-1, is it better to make a Raven first to deny observer or cloaked banshee to harass? Both seem to be decent options..hmmm....How many "variations" are there in 1-1-1?
What is the earliest an Observer can be in the Terran Base? Is it around 6 minute mark?
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What is the proper way to spread/split versus siege tanks, small numbers of colossus or storms? Is it simply move commanding small groups like baneling splitting, or is there some other control method? I find that when I try to do this the units take too much damage before they start attacking again, but I am not sure if this is just a matter of my bad control or if it is because it is not the correct method.
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Hey all!
Silver level terran here, I have been slacking hardcore on practicing due to university... However once summer is here I am going to put in several hours a day into this game ANYWAYS...
I have a TvZ replay here which I lost, and I was hoping you guys could analyze it for me, and tell me how I screwed up. It was pretty frustrating, as it was a long game that I felt ahead for the most part, until the base race at the end (SOMEHOW this was my 3rd late-game superclose baserace of the day that I eventually lost, so I was feeling EXTREMELY frustrated by this point  )
I obviously have several idea as to why I lost. However I feel you guys are much more qualified to decipher what went wrong and what went right. Thanks in advance!
Replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Naeroon_vs_(Z)Greyrook/18444
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On March 05 2012 00:24 Naeroon wrote:Hey all! Silver level terran here, I have been slacking hardcore on practicing due to university... However once summer is here I am going to put in several hours a day into this game ANYWAYS... I have a TvZ replay here which I lost, and I was hoping you guys could analyze it for me, and tell me how I screwed up. It was pretty frustrating, as it was a long game that I felt ahead for the most part, until the base race at the end (SOMEHOW this was my 3rd late-game superclose baserace of the day that I eventually lost, so I was feeling EXTREMELY frustrated by this point ) I obviously have several idea as to why I lost. However I feel you guys are much more qualified to decipher what went wrong and what went right. Thanks in advance! Replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Naeroon_vs_(Z)Greyrook/18444
The main, biggest problems:
1 - You just have terrible SCV production. This is likely consistent across all your matchups and is likely why you lose a lot of the games you do in any matchup. Work hard and pay close attention to making sure you're constantly making SCVs until you hit at least 70. For example, at 25 minutes in this game you only have 32 - and on 4 bases, too. You know bases are important, but for being on 4 bases you're actually only mining as many resources as if you were on about one. Now he did kill 11 at this point, but even 43 SCVs is just really quite bad for 25 minutes in the game. Think about how this impacts your game, too. When you lose all your marines to Brood Lords at 25 minutes, you can produce 8 at a time. If you'd made more SCvs, by this point in the game you should be able to reinforce much more quickly.
2 - Once you had lower numbers and the front was not looking as strong anymore, pull everything back and head home. Against a Zerg, you do damage by pressuring him as much as by actually destroying things because you force him out of droning. Just showing up there with those tanks did damage before you even tried to really attack. He has just taken his third and wants to produce drones, but instead you force him to make roaches. This is good. Then, you even kill his third base! This was a great time to turn around and go home - usually killing a base is a good sign to go home unless you know you can get more done. Basically, TvZ takes tremendous patience and you cannot just rush for the killing blow.
For example, if you went home after the 3rd went down, you have 19 marines and 3 siege tanks you can heal up and use later, making yourself stronger later on. He has 8 roaches which are useless once you get more siege tanks, and is down by 3 drones and doesn't have a third base yet. You're in a good position - and up 20 supply. Now, after you press that advantage too far, you have only 1 siege tank and 8 marines and are down 11 supply. Patience pays off (apart from being overly passive/patient, of course)
Eventually you even stim your marines to the point of death and still don't turn around despite having a very weak force.
Here's another thing: when you are pushing the Zerg, unless you are in a tremendously strong position (he is very nearly dead), don't rally your units to the front. Rally them to your base - whether that is your natural, or later on in between the natural and third, or whever your main "defensive position" is back home. This will improve any matchup, but especially your TvZ, by a fairly significant margin. The way you need to attack a Zerg is in waves - preferably losing as little as possible with each wave, hence again pulling home whatever possible once you are weaker at the front - especially early game.
In the end, this is a huge turning point in the game, even if it doesn't seem it once the game goes later. You are and should be relatively far ahead, but you end up behind, which over time allows him to gain an edge. For example, after he kills the entire army you have at the beginning, he feels comfortable going up to 5 bases. Had you turned around, you would have cost him his third and he knows you have an army and feels defensive. What ends up happening is he feels free to do whatever he wants because he knows you lost your entire force.
- You eventually lose to brood lords because you are unprepared. Two points to fix this: 1) you need to know that by this late in the game (25 minutes in this game, but as soon as 15 - 20 minutes generally) he will have hive. You need to have the infrastructure set up to deal with it - extra starports if brood lords or barracks with tech labs for marauders for ultralisks. 2) To know which, scout him better. Scan his base, or, better yet, try dropping his main. Drops are not just for doing damage, - they also scout while doing it. I'd try dropping the main and then scan if you can't. Yes, there are mutalisks, but they cannot be everywhere at once. At least try here and there, unless you know where the mutas are and know you can't at that very moment. Losing a single medivac of marines shouldn't be a big deal unless you're horribly behind, and even just the threat of drops you pose to him with that medivac should give you some advantage by making him feel more pinned back.
- Once you know he has Brood Lords, you don't actually do anything about it. (making vikings, making another starport, or even trying for ghosts despite how weak they are against Brood Lords with the recent patch.) You basically don't react at all to what the Zerg is doing or to his composition. Brood Lords exist in ZvT specifically to beat siege tank/marine. You can't win without adding something to deal with them. If you didn't feel like you could afford it, go back to the SCV comment above.
- On this same theme, when you have brood lords bearing down on you you basically need to unsiege and fall back while producing Vikings and massing them trying to have enough by the time the Brood lords get there. They are very slow, so you can run all the way home and resiege if you need to in order to remain safe from the zerglings and roaches and banelings. Yes, when you unsiege they may all run in and kill you and it stinks, but if you stay sieged you'll lose everything too.
Ok, a few other things (these are not strictly "why you lost," but they are worth noting):
- I could be wrong, but it feels like you're valuing siege tanks more than marines, at least in terms of how may you make in the game. Siege tanks are vital, but the marines are ultimately more or at least as important. You need to really have just as many siege tanks as you do, but far more marines.
-You should be using your early hellions more for map control. Keeping them outside of the zerg natural is good to try to deny him creep spread and a third, but once you don't feel comfortable there anymore you pull them home. They should really be at the watchtower if they aren't at his base unless you feel he has such overwhelming numbers that you need to combine all your forces.
- I feel like the initial push should have more marines. Moving at three tanks is pretty sound, but the feel of that push is off because the marine numbers are a bit low making it much easier to lose those tanks, which you eventually do.
- You don't really make medivacs consistently, which is necessary for the marine/tank style. You end up having a lot of very low health marines (which you sometimes overstim) throughout much of the game because they are not being healed.
- You take huge risks running forces into areas where you have no vision - even right up into his third at one point. There could be banelings in these places, or any number of other things. Instead, either scan ahead or stim a single marine ahead to gain vision before going with the rest if it is safe.
- Also, don't stim until you are actually attacking something. It just results in wounded units which are not doing the damage stim does as the stim has already worn off very soon into your attack.
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I get my expansion up at about 6.30 so i could skip some army since the pf is up any second after that.
Thank you.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 04 2012 20:30 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 16:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 04 2012 15:39 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 04 2012 14:36 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Hey guys, I know, we all know 1-1-1 is so strong vs Protoss. However....I rarely do it and therefore I would like to see how strong it is, but I cannot seem to find the guide for it...can someone tell me the BO for this 1-1-1? There is no set 1-1-1. I do it sometimes, lemme dig up some replays. I do either marine tank banshee hit at like 8:45 or 9, or 3 hellion drop to raven tank banshee, cloakshee, etc. http://drop.sc/125931 vs 700 pt master toss http://drop.sc/125932 vs 500 pt master toss http://drop.sc/125933 vs 550 masters toss Just a few I ran across. Two more. Just played a few ladder games, and drew back to back protoss and just for you I did two 1-1-1s to give two good examples. http://drop.sc/125939 vs 650 masters http://drop.sc/125940 vs 650 masters Both 3 marine -> bunker + reactor 3 hellion drop into marine tank banshee.
Haha thanks for that. Will definitely watch replays now Actually with 1-1-1, is it better to make a Raven first to deny observer or cloaked banshee to harass? Both seem to be decent options..hmmm....How many "variations" are there in 1-1-1? What is the earliest an Observer can be in the Terran Base? Is it around 6 minute mark?
If you're interested, here's the 1-1-1 build order I use. Don't have any replays, but if you want to see a pro doing this build check out Thorzain against Jim in the finals of Starcraft2 Across the Galaxy - I think he does this variation on Shattered Temple.
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 marine
16 orbital command
16 reactor on rax --> constant marine production after
17 depot
18 factory
19 refinery
22 depot --> Thorzain doesn't wall or make a bunker, but if you suspect early pressure now would be a good time to make a bunker at your ramp
28 starport + reactor on factory
32 depot
34 Swap starport to factory reactor, 2 * medivacs
38 depot
40 2nd rax, tech lab on fac
47 depot, begin tank production
48 tech lab on starport --> banshees
54 Swap 2nd barracks to starport reactor, constant marine production
Push at 9:30 (80/83 supply) - you should have approximately 28 marines, 2 tanks (with a third about to pop), 2 banshees, and 2 medivacs. Pull 6-10 scvs for repair/bunkers.
I have a very high win rate using this build in diamond. Note that I left out researching siege mode - I usually don't get it because I find the splash ends up hurting my marines more than the protoss, but Thorzain does sneak it in somewhere.
I also usually get a Raven first instead of a banshee, because detection in case of DTs and point defense drone is really strong, especially if you don't have the best micro in the world (which I certainly do not).
Anyway, it's a very strong variation. The principle differences between Thorzain's build and the "standard" 1-1-1 is that you're getting out the two medivacs, which helps a ton in keeping your marines alive, and you're going to have two reactored barracks. Most 1-1-1 variants add on additional barracks, but I've never seen more than two or three, without addons - so this variant will give you significantly more marines, and with the medivacs they'll survive longer.
The only downside is that this push hits a little later than some 1-1-1 variations do, and because of the reactors you'll have fewer units early on, which leaves you vulnerable to some allins if you don't scout/prepare properly.
I probably win about 90% of my TvPs with this build. The games I lose are usually to fast colossus, but I think this build is actually pretty good against fast colossus if you do a better job reacting than I usually do (my standard response to scouting fast colossus is a-move and die). Since you have the reactor you can swap a barracks or factory and pump out some vikings if you need to, and since they probably won't have too many gateway units once the colossi are dead you can a-move to victory. In theory, at least - like I said, I usually just die.
Hope that helps.
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On March 04 2012 23:36 Lazerlike42 wrote:
What is the proper way to spread/split versus siege tanks, small numbers of colossus or storms? Is it simply move commanding small groups like baneling splitting, or is there some other control method? I find that when I try to do this the units take too much damage before they start attacking again, but I am not sure if this is just a matter of my bad control or if it is because it is not the correct method.
A la marine tank vs marine tank? Catch them before they siege lol.
No, but seriously, it's just box stim and split. You want a giant flat surface area where the splash isn't balled up, it'd mitigated and spread out into a line. Tanks target the closest attacking unit, so therefore you learn the tank timing attack and box forward a group of units to draw the fire.
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I hate TvP, it's so frustrating. I die to warp prism all ins all the time, because i dont know how to scout it and how to stop it when its there. I usually 1 rax FE, and i don't seem to hold anything off, it's really frustrating. How do you hold? T_T
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On March 04 2012 20:30 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 16:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 04 2012 15:39 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 04 2012 14:36 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Hey guys, I know, we all know 1-1-1 is so strong vs Protoss. However....I rarely do it and therefore I would like to see how strong it is, but I cannot seem to find the guide for it...can someone tell me the BO for this 1-1-1? There is no set 1-1-1. I do it sometimes, lemme dig up some replays. I do either marine tank banshee hit at like 8:45 or 9, or 3 hellion drop to raven tank banshee, cloakshee, etc. http://drop.sc/125931 vs 700 pt master toss http://drop.sc/125932 vs 500 pt master toss http://drop.sc/125933 vs 550 masters toss Just a few I ran across. Two more. Just played a few ladder games, and drew back to back protoss and just for you I did two 1-1-1s to give two good examples. http://drop.sc/125939 vs 650 masters http://drop.sc/125940 vs 650 masters Both 3 marine -> bunker + reactor 3 hellion drop into marine tank banshee. Haha thanks for that. Will definitely watch replays now Actually with 1-1-1, is it better to make a Raven first to deny observer or cloaked banshee to harass? Both seem to be decent options..hmmm....How many "variations" are there in 1-1-1? What is the earliest an Observer can be in the Terran Base? Is it around 6 minute mark?
1-1-1 is very reactive. If I see them go collsai, I cut my 3 rax marine down and get vikings and banshees. If I see immortals + zealots, more marines, less tanks, more banshees. If I see a load of stalkers, or 2 gas no expo by say, 5-6 minutes, I then get a raven after the hellions.
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I was a master lvl terran last season, I got demoted because I haven't played for like 5 months, but even so, during all my sc2 gaming experience, it has been impossible for me to beat a protoss. I don't want to post replays atm because you guys will probably point out my bad macro, but even with my horrible macro, I can beat terrans and zerg at my level, but I can't do anything against protoss.
Like when I play vs zerg or terran, I know how to harass, I know my timings and such, but vs protoss it seems that I can't do anything like that. Force Fields will deny all early aggression. If I try to drop and do a 2 pronged attack, they would just warp like a bunch of zealots near where my drop is and defend the other attack with their army easily. And I can't retreat without losing many units because of the forcefields. And then they would just walk over with me with their colossus/archon/high templar speed zealots death ball. If I try to fast expand, and bunker up, the protoss would just kill me with that 3-4 immortal timing attack or some voidray stuff. It feels like all I do in tvp is just wait for the protoss to attack me and die. They can harass me but when I try to drop or anything like that, it just gets denied.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On March 05 2012 07:54 sutoraiku wrote:
I was a master lvl terran last season, I got demoted because I haven't played for like 5 months, but even so, during all my sc2 gaming experience, it has been impossible for me to beat a protoss. I don't want to post replays atm because you guys will probably point out my bad macro, but even with my horrible macro, I can beat terrans and zerg at my level, but I can't do anything against protoss.
Like when I play vs zerg or terran, I know how to harass, I know my timings and such, but vs protoss it seems that I can't do anything like that. Force Fields will deny all early aggression. If I try to drop and do a 2 pronged attack, they would just warp like a bunch of zealots near where my drop is and defend the other attack with their army easily. And I can't retreat without losing many units because of the forcefields. And then they would just walk over with me with their colossus/archon/high templar speed zealots death ball. If I try to fast expand, and bunker up, the protoss would just kill me with that 3-4 immortal timing attack or some voidray stuff. It feels like all I do in tvp is just wait for the protoss to attack me and die. They can harass me but when I try to drop or anything like that, it just gets denied.
Traditionally when dropping, you try to move your army out on the map and force him to keep most of his dudes at the front of his ramp. You don't actually go in and be aggressive unless he pulls back the bulk of his army to deal with the drop. You force him to spend more than just his 4-5 WG cooldowns to deal with your drop, and if you feel like your drop can't do damage, just pick up and back off and don't TAKE any damage. Assert map control with your drop and keep him trapped on his 2 bases while you take your third.
If you're having trouble dealing with protoss drops on multiple bases, Sensor Towers help out a lot with this.
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I've seen several posts, especially from zerg, who say that gasless FE vs zerg is really unsafe. Zerg calim to be very happy to see it and just go for a baneling bust off of 2 base, which still comes surprisingly early sometimes.
So how can you play safe with a gasless FE vs a 2 base bling bust and/or identify it in time? What specific build are you doing after the FE opener? Should I just go with a reactor hellion build?
I've considered lots of depos at the entrance to the natural, plus even lifting my rax (I'll wall in my main with my 1st rax) to the natural's entrance for a beefier wall. As with my roach question, I'm doing a 2 fact BF hellion build a la Drewbie.
I've beat busts and I've lost to them, but I can't confidently say when me or my opponent are doing something right or wrong.
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So when is the earliest time an Obs can get into my base? Around 6:45 if I remember well?
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On March 05 2012 11:05 Smackzilla wrote:
I've seen several posts, especially from zerg, who say that gasless FE vs zerg is really unsafe. Zerg calim to be very happy to see it and just go for a baneling bust off of 2 base, which still comes surprisingly early sometimes.
So how can you play safe with a gasless FE vs a 2 base bling bust and/or identify it in time? What specific build are you doing after the FE opener? Should I just go with a reactor hellion build?
I've considered lots of depos at the entrance to the natural, plus even lifting my rax (I'll wall in my main with my 1st rax) to the natural's entrance for a beefier wall. As with my roach question, I'm doing a 2 fact BF hellion build a la Drewbie.
I've beat busts and I've lost to them, but I can't confidently say when me or my opponent are doing something right or wrong.
Not sure about this either but I have recently started doing a gasless expand against Zerg and I frankly like it much more than the reactored hellion expand, which I just think has been more than figured out at this point. It seems to me a Zerg can choose to either defend it easily or even outright kill you with early roaches. The reactored hellion expand just powers up too late with non-hellion units for my taste.
I like to gasless expand and then immediately after dropping the CC, the next 150 minerals goes into two refineries and I go straight for siege tech. I'll have a natural defended with 2 - 3 sieged tanks and the production off of 3 rax in marines with combat shield on the way before any 2 base bust timing comes. I also feel far, far safer against the possibility of heavy roach pressure which the reactored hellion expand seems to just open itself too. Had much success early game with this so far and almost always go into the late game with this build.
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EPT
