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On February 28 2012 07:58 Sajaki wrote:
What is ideal vs a mostly stalker colossus composition, like 6 colossus with mostly stalkers and like 8 zealots and a templar or three? Do you want to be very marine light vs this composition, and have mostly marauder ghost viking? And how many of each of those tech units would be good in this end game army?
Pretty much marauder ghost viking medic. 4 vikings per collsai, and 2 per each after that, with air upgrades is what I do personally. So that's like 14-16 vikings. The thing with stalker/collsai army is they cannot replenish and be a threat like chargelot archon. Chargelot archon gets on top of you so fast. Marauders eat stalkers for breakfast.
I like to get quite a few ghosts, once I actually get them. Stalkers have mostly shields, hitting a group of them with an EMP is like insta win.
Just make sure you have a huge concave, and don't set yourself up for that obvious mass blink under the vikings.
When it comes to scout timings--which is better?
A.) shift command the scv building the supply depot.
B.) rallying the 11th/12th SCV to a main.
C.) grabbing an scv off the mineral line at around 11 or 12 supply.
I believe normal scout for terran is on 14. Against Z/P You won't see anything anyways. The pool timing and queen + 2-4 lings run you away. For P, it's the ~4:05 stalker. Against T there are a plethora of options, and early walls on big maps can prevent you. Hence, the 6 minute scan.
Look for expo, 1 gas or two, for Z how much gas is gone (rare for P, gas first 1 gas DT is nasty, hatch first or pool first? Rax timing line up with your timing -- other wise proxy or gas first. Just have to know what to look for, good sir.
Scouting that early isn't really smart, in my mind. Sometimes, I don't scout under 17+ supply, after 2nd depot depending on what I do.
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On February 28 2012 07:58 Sajaki wrote:
What is ideal vs a mostly stalker colossus composition, like 6 colossus with mostly stalkers and like 8 zealots and a templar or three? Do you want to be very marine light vs this composition, and have mostly marauder ghost viking? And how many of each of those tech units would be good in this end game army?
6 colossi+alot of stalker+HT is a ton of gas and uncommon to have this many colossi.
As a general rule of thumb you want 2½ viking per colossi rounded up. However, most ppl wont go beyond 12 vikings regardless of the colossi count, since you can 1 shot colossi with 12 vikings.
Normally if you see both colossi and ht, they wont be stalker heavy, but chargelot heavy, in this case you mainly want enough marauders to slow down your adversaries zealot with concussive shell making your stutterstepping more effective, while marines deal dps.
Another general rule of thumb is that you want to avoid engaging the protoss ball as much as possible, and instead harass on multiple fronts to split up his army.
If the protoss has alot of stalker, 6 colossi and templar tech then he either has no upgrades (including blink and charge) or you let him turtle/mass expand unharrassed.
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On February 28 2012 08:43 yoona2012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:58 Sajaki wrote:
What is ideal vs a mostly stalker colossus composition, like 6 colossus with mostly stalkers and like 8 zealots and a templar or three? Do you want to be very marine light vs this composition, and have mostly marauder ghost viking? And how many of each of those tech units would be good in this end game army? 6 colossi+alot of stalker+HT is a ton of gas and uncommon to have this many colossi. As a general rule of thumb you want 2½ viking per colossi rounded up. However, most ppl wont go beyond 12 vikings regardless of the colossi count, since you can 1 shot colossi with 12 vikings.
Thing is, Vikings die. You may one-shot Colossi at the beginning of the fight, but then Stalkers kill some of them and you don't have the critical number anymore, which means Colossi live longer, all for your bio's despair.
The number of Vikings to get is always tricky, and Protosses sure know how to exploit that. But 6 Colossi in midgame is like between 5 and 7 minuts of production time for one Robo (depending on how many Chronoboosts were spent on the production), so once those Colossi are gone the Protoss player will have a very hard time replenishing them (unlike lategame, in which 6 Colossi out of 3 Robos is 2 minuts and 30 seconds at best...), so you can get something like ~18 Vikings to shut him down.
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On February 28 2012 08:59 TheDwf wrote:
Thing is, Vikings die. You may one-shot Colossi at the beginning of the fight, but then Stalkers kill some of them and you don't have the critical number anymore, which means Colossi live longer, all for your bio's despair.
The number of Vikings to get is always tricky, and Protosses sure know how to exploit that. But 6 Colossi in midgame is like between 5 and 7 minuts of production time for one Robo (depending on how many Chronoboosts were spent on the production), so once those Colossi are gone the Protoss player will have a very hard time replenishing them (unlike lategame, in which 6 Colossi out of 3 Robos is 2 minuts and 30 seconds at best...), so you can get something like ~18 Vikings to shut him down.
Well you don´t just stim and amove as a terran. You usually have vikings flanking (preferably from a high ground) while the gateway units are tanking for the colossi and chasing the stutterstepping bio ball, which naturally leaves the colossi hanging in the back of the protoss army. 12 vikings arent gonna die in 1 second you know, they are afterall armored units and 12 of them are quite alot, the danger of making 18 or more is that protoss tech switches seconds later to chargelot/storm/archon and you suddenly have a ton of supply flying around practically useless. So unless you land them (and lets face it, they don´t arent cost effecient or even great as ground units) you suddenly have a very inferior army combosition vs his next warpin rounds.
Watching terran progamers it´s very rare to see more than 12 vikings, but then again you´ll rarely see protoss progamers make more than 4 colossi too.
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On February 28 2012 09:32 yoona2012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:59 TheDwf wrote:
Thing is, Vikings die. You may one-shot Colossi at the beginning of the fight, but then Stalkers kill some of them and you don't have the critical number anymore, which means Colossi live longer, all for your bio's despair.
The number of Vikings to get is always tricky, and Protosses sure know how to exploit that. But 6 Colossi in midgame is like between 5 and 7 minuts of production time for one Robo (depending on how many Chronoboosts were spent on the production), so once those Colossi are gone the Protoss player will have a very hard time replenishing them (unlike lategame, in which 6 Colossi out of 3 Robos is 2 minuts and 30 seconds at best...), so you can get something like ~18 Vikings to shut him down. Well you don´t just stim and amove as a terran. You usually have vikings flanking (preferably from a high ground) while the gateway units are tanking for the colossi and chasing the stutterstepping bio ball, which naturally leaves the colossi hanging in the back of the protoss army. 12 vikings arent gonna die in 1 second you know, they are afterall armored units and 12 of them are quite alot, the danger of making 18 or more is that protoss tech switches seconds later to chargelot/storm/archon and you suddenly have a ton of supply flying around practically useless. So unless you land them (and lets face it, they don´t arent cost effecient or even great as ground units) you suddenly have a very inferior army combosition vs his next warpin rounds. Watching terran progamers it´s very rare to see more than 12 vikings, but then again you´ll rarely see protoss progamers make more than 4 colossi too.
Hence why you keep tabs on their army, and only make the vikings you need to make. Air upgrades in the late game make up for their + upgrades, as viking upgrades scale so fucking well vs collsai.
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Can anyone link me a replay of a pro player doing a 111 cloaked banshee into Mech opening? Or if you are really experienced with doing a similar type build then by all means reply.
It's worked well so far, havent dropped a game yet even with a somewhat unrefined build (after the first banshee gets out its wing it from there), just because the cloaked banshee messes people up and then I drop BF hellions when I can so my opponent's eco is crippled a lot of the time. But anyway, if you have any other tips for Mech in TvT, they'd be much appreciated  . (All this is at Plat/Diamond level for reference)
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Hey guys!
I don't have the time to play much lately but I want to learn a nice solid build which you can use for all matchups. I was thinking about a 2rax opening because my mechanics aren't good enough for a one rax expand vs early pressure/allins. The problem is there are so many different 2rax-builds:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ffhHh.jpg)
Can you guys help me to find an opening? It should be safe but there should also be an option to pressure a lot vs. very fast expanding opponents.
Edit: Or is this a good opening vs zerg/terran, too?
 2 Rax Reactor First (vs. Protoss)
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On February 28 2012 06:03 lorkac wrote:
When it comes to scout timings--which is better?
A.) shift command the scv building the supply depot.
B.) rallying the 11th/12th SCV to a main.
C.) grabbing an scv off the mineral line at around 11 or 12 supply. This depends on many things. First off you have to figure out how scouting will cange you build depending on what you see. If you build doesn't cange at all, there isn't any reason to worker scout. Personally I scout after my rax finishes becuase my of my builds are safe from cheese and all I need to know is where my oppnent is located so I know where to attack with small pokes that accomplish the "scouting" for me. It also depends on what race you are up against seeing that each race can deny after a certain point. Gernerally scout terran early compared to protoss becuase a marine will pop out a lot faster than a stalker.
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On February 27 2012 21:52 Yohsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 04:39 knekten wrote:
Try going for more macro oriented build, focusing on harrassing/wearing down the zerg rather than one "big push" which it sounds like you're going for. Try reactor hellion > expand > tech lab and stim on rax > lift factory after 4 hellions > build 2 more rax, one on the unused reactor, while getting a starport and building reactor on factory > switch starport with factory and start a tech lab and start tank production
I use this build too and it works pretty well. but after this 2 drops push and when mutas are on the field, i dont know what to do. Do i have to stay on 3 bases, camping and wait for 2-2 upgrades for a big push? Cause I used to keep attacking him wave after wave but he can defend too easily and i lose my units for nothin. I think its better to massing tanks and wait for a death army but it means i let zerg macroing (drops are not very effective cause of mutas and i have no map control).
After my first double medivac drop I expand, get double ups and put on pressure with my first couple of tanks (unless my drop completely failed, then I defend mutas and try to get a fast 4th and wait for 2/2 bio - +1 mech.) Denying tumors, cutting into expansion locations, generally just trying to be active with my army while staying off creep.
If I know he isn't trying for a 4th, and the map allows for it, I put siege up tanks near a cliff outside his base/natural and do a push where I'll have a favorable position, while getting a commandogroup of 10 or so marines to attack his 3rd. Basically just trying to be as cost effective as I can with my marines and tanks while slowly creeping ahead in econ/upgrades.
You don't need to win all your battles, just make sure you are cost effective and prefferably put pressure on multiple locations and macro while you're fighting.
However, you will want to know when you can be doing this constant pressure strategy and when it's not such a good idea. I've been having trouble doing it against stephano style when he gets to 2-2, that's when I know I have to sit back and defend. Normally I've been putting on so much pressure during the early-mid game and expanding behind that pressure that I'm in a favorable position and just generally better economy than him, so I just drop him and wait for max, then push out with multipronged drops and it usually works out pretty well unless he's gotten too many BL's.
On February 28 2012 08:03 Desolat wrote:
Hi, I am currently struggling in my TvZ, I usually go for a Hellion FE into Marine tank, trying to take a quick third if the map permits it. The problem I have is putting aggresion on my zerg opponent, is there any other way except for drops or will I need to just turtle to 200/200?
Basically the problem is how do I aggress a zerg opponent if I go for a Hellion FE into marine tank.
No, you don't want to sit and wait for 200/200 while playing marine+tank, you want to be attacking at every possible occasion, and get good engagements for yourself before he gets to T3.
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On February 28 2012 15:25 KiNGxXx wrote:Hey guys! I don't have the time to play much lately but I want to learn a nice solid build which you can use for all matchups. I was thinking about a 2rax opening because my mechanics aren't good enough for a one rax expand vs early pressure/allins. The problem is there are so many different 2rax-builds: Can you guys help me to find an opening? It should be safe but there should also be an option to pressure a lot vs. very fast expanding opponents. Edit: Or is this a good opening vs zerg/terran, too? 2 Rax Reactor First (vs. Protoss)
That is indeed a good build. It's the one that I use, it's the one that benefitted my TvP a lot! Especially against early expanding Protoss you'll be on the winning hand!
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-416-p1-marineking-vs-white-ra-2rax-opening-5947604
That's part one of Day9's explanation of the build. It's a really good idea to watch the video's, they give you a good undersstanding of what your goal should be during the push. It's intended to force the opponent to keep making stalkers for defense. If he's one basing, just send 1 unit up the ramp to see if he's doing some weird tech, if so: Pwn him. If he's doing a 4gate or a 3 gate robo, go back to your base and BUNKER UP!
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On February 28 2012 17:06 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 15:25 KiNGxXx wrote:Hey guys! I don't have the time to play much lately but I want to learn a nice solid build which you can use for all matchups. I was thinking about a 2rax opening because my mechanics aren't good enough for a one rax expand vs early pressure/allins. The problem is there are so many different 2rax-builds: Can you guys help me to find an opening? It should be safe but there should also be an option to pressure a lot vs. very fast expanding opponents. Edit: Or is this a good opening vs zerg/terran, too? 2 Rax Reactor First (vs. Protoss) That is indeed a good build. It's the one that I use, it's the one that benefitted my TvP a lot! Especially against early expanding Protoss you'll be on the winning hand! http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-416-p1-marineking-vs-white-ra-2rax-opening-5947604+ Show Spoiler +
That's part one of Day9's explanation of the build. It's a really good idea to watch the video's, they give you a good undersstanding of what your goal should be during the push. It's intended to force the opponent to keep making stalkers for defense. If he's one basing, just send 1 unit up the ramp to see if he's doing some weird tech, if so: Pwn him. If he's doing a 4gate or a 3 gate robo, go back to your base and BUNKER UP!
Thanks for the link. Watching right now.
But is this build viable vs T and Z, too? Because, as I said before, I would love to have ONE build which I can practise all the time vs all races. I don't have the time to have one build for each matchup. I know it's maybe not as good vs Z than vs P but still...a good build?
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I feel like I have to share this to anyone who wants a weird TvZ openings... but I thought this was just the fucking coolest opening I have ever came up with on the fly. TvZ reaper -> marine/marauder/reaper pressure as I take fucking 3 bases.
Was insane, very fun to play. Against a 350 EU zerg he did a gasless spanishwa style...and lost like 6 queens =)
http://drop.sc/122622
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On February 28 2012 17:32 KiNGxXx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 17:06 KenDM wrote:On February 28 2012 15:25 KiNGxXx wrote:Hey guys! I don't have the time to play much lately but I want to learn a nice solid build which you can use for all matchups. I was thinking about a 2rax opening because my mechanics aren't good enough for a one rax expand vs early pressure/allins. The problem is there are so many different 2rax-builds: Can you guys help me to find an opening? It should be safe but there should also be an option to pressure a lot vs. very fast expanding opponents. Edit: Or is this a good opening vs zerg/terran, too? 2 Rax Reactor First (vs. Protoss) That is indeed a good build. It's the one that I use, it's the one that benefitted my TvP a lot! Especially against early expanding Protoss you'll be on the winning hand! http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-416-p1-marineking-vs-white-ra-2rax-opening-5947604+ Show Spoiler +
That's part one of Day9's explanation of the build. It's a really good idea to watch the video's, they give you a good undersstanding of what your goal should be during the push. It's intended to force the opponent to keep making stalkers for defense. If he's one basing, just send 1 unit up the ramp to see if he's doing some weird tech, if so: Pwn him. If he's doing a 4gate or a 3 gate robo, go back to your base and BUNKER UP!
Thanks for the link. Watching right now. But is this build viable vs T and Z, too? Because, as I said before, I would love to have ONE build which I can practise all the time vs all races. I don't have the time to have one build for each matchup. I know it's maybe not as good vs Z than vs P but still...a good build?
No.
If you want a decent low level build for every MU, use this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299901
But honestly, if you want to improve, give every matchup a hour on Liquipedia, and use specialized build for each. Ideally a FE build. Reactor hellion FE vZ, 1rax FE vP and vT.
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On February 28 2012 18:25 negon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 17:32 KiNGxXx wrote:On February 28 2012 17:06 KenDM wrote:On February 28 2012 15:25 KiNGxXx wrote:Hey guys! I don't have the time to play much lately but I want to learn a nice solid build which you can use for all matchups. I was thinking about a 2rax opening because my mechanics aren't good enough for a one rax expand vs early pressure/allins. The problem is there are so many different 2rax-builds: Can you guys help me to find an opening? It should be safe but there should also be an option to pressure a lot vs. very fast expanding opponents. Edit: Or is this a good opening vs zerg/terran, too? 2 Rax Reactor First (vs. Protoss) That is indeed a good build. It's the one that I use, it's the one that benefitted my TvP a lot! Especially against early expanding Protoss you'll be on the winning hand! http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-416-p1-marineking-vs-white-ra-2rax-opening-5947604+ Show Spoiler +
That's part one of Day9's explanation of the build. It's a really good idea to watch the video's, they give you a good undersstanding of what your goal should be during the push. It's intended to force the opponent to keep making stalkers for defense. If he's one basing, just send 1 unit up the ramp to see if he's doing some weird tech, if so: Pwn him. If he's doing a 4gate or a 3 gate robo, go back to your base and BUNKER UP!
Thanks for the link. Watching right now. But is this build viable vs T and Z, too? Because, as I said before, I would love to have ONE build which I can practise all the time vs all races. I don't have the time to have one build for each matchup. I know it's maybe not as good vs Z than vs P but still...a good build? No. If you want a decent low level build for every MU, use this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299901But honestly, if you want to improve, give every matchup a hour on Liquipedia, and use specialized build for each. Ideally a FE build. Reactor hellion FE vZ, 1rax FE vP and vT.
Sorry, didn't realise you wanted a overall build. 3 Rax is indeed a very good build to start off with. Hasn't given me that much succes though. I got out of Bronze with learning 3 different builds for each matchup.
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On February 28 2012 18:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:I feel like I have to share this to anyone who wants a weird TvZ openings... but I thought this was just the fucking coolest opening I have ever came up with on the fly. TvZ reaper -> marine/marauder/reaper pressure as I take fucking 3 bases. Was insane, very fun to play. Against a 350 EU zerg he did a gasless spanishwa style...and lost like 6 queens =) http://drop.sc/122622
that looks really fun, will try it on short maps (does not rewally work on long ones, correct?). What crushes this? Mass ling should, right? A little refined this would be a neat build for shorter maps!
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Anyone have anything to say about this replay? I tried being aggressive with drops, even sniped colossus den twice, upgrade structures, sniped a Nexus, but it didn't work out for me in the end. I want to know how to be successful against Protoss.
http://drop.sc/122658
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On February 28 2012 23:58 KenDM wrote:Anyone have anything to say about this replay? I tried being aggressive with drops, even sniped colossus den twice, upgrade structures, sniped a Nexus, but it didn't work out for me in the end. I want to know how to be successful against Protoss. http://drop.sc/122658
hi, just posting my unformatted and uncommented notes! its written not so nice, but its not meant to be harsh, just my thoughts while watching!
Notes TvP - KenDM
-why 2rax pressure on such a LARGE map? 1rax FE should be better
-looks like Polt TvP 2Rax agression
-no scv'S forgotten
-no supply block
-normally you should stim right after conc-shell is done, why shields?
-normal move-out timing is with 2 or even 3 marauders?
-instead of shooting the nexus you should maybe folloe his army and not give him the time to get more stuff out while you only harm his nexus
-you loose about 4 marines before noticing and then you attack his stuff, he has more now
-i would focus the immortal
-battle is over, same worker, but he has expo out, so he is ahead.
### big one ###
-you CC should have been started at 7:27, it would be done by 9:07, you start it at 8:40
-you have tons of stuff in queue, you CC could be done by now and 2 more rax while still producing.
###############
-you couldhave started your CC by now, or maybe even have it half-way done
-you run more stuff in which just dies
-at the moment you are clearly behind. if you wait for few more units before you go and get stim instead of shield, this may look different.
10:07 and following
- you are 10 workers behind, expo still not done, he is getting his robo bay.
- you walk up with one marine to see if you cann punish him (thats good)
- you should see that you clearly cant with 2 immortals, and run up nontheless. (not good).
- now you are even farther behind (in army AND by 12 workers)
13:31 and following
- expo is finally up and good running
- he let you catch up in workers, did not start his upgrades earlier and has alot of money, so he messed up here.
- he is getting your third, you have the money, but dont?
-you drop him, pretty good, thanks to his pylon wall (nice wall lol) he cant reayll run there
-10 workers killed by now, thats good, you are now ahead in workers but he is up a good amount in army
14:45
- i think you could have just crushed his army there... go in with you vikings from the right, distract him and stim in from the left, snipe the colossi spread your stuff!
- i could be wrong, but i would havestimmed in there, could have won you the game or not, he has only 3 zealots and a few stalkers at 0-0 (check that if you have vision of his stuff)
- Why no addons still on all you stuff?
-armory way too late, he gets ahead in upgrades so it seems. (but you snipe it later  )
- now you pull back and then you should atleast take a third, you just stand there and wait and mass up. drop him in his main, try to snipe the third while dropppinmg, do something!
16:33
-now you finally drop!
- snipe upgrades and robo bay, nice! you loose your stuff but your even in army.
... passive massing up by both sides, another drop....
you are maxed some time now, you snipe the upgrades again, very good.
you should add tons of production and bases now, or he will most likely roll you with his warpins.
he attacks your third in a very favourable spot, gets good storms and AOE off, you dont die, which is surprising to me.
his eco is much better no, doubleling your income and he has 5k in the bank
you start your 3 upgrade very late at 26min, you could have had it long time in the last fight.
good sniping the third and getting out!
he finally gets charge, the next engagenent was nt a good one, vikings should attack first in a flanking posision, his chargeloits rape your stuff, no ghosts for EMP, down in upgrades at 31minutes.
you die!
TL;DR
you choose an agressive opening which is quite good on small maps he FE's and lives (is a good amount ahead)
he lets you get back but you dont vcapitalize on it (expand, take more production, drop while attacking an expo of his when he pulls to defend.
you upgrades are late even tho you snipe his many times.
no ghosts and low viking count against colossus and templar
cheers!
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ok i read your build at liquipedia.. it sais indeed move out with 1 or 2 marauders! then just ignore me telling oyu to move out with 3 or 4 building bunkers is a good option too like in the guide!
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On February 29 2012 01:36 KroN wrote:ok i read your build at liquipedia.. it sais indeed move out with 1 or 2 marauders! then just ignore me telling oyu to move out with 3 or 4 building bunkers is a good option too like in the guide!
Hey just a few comments about you're critique-
The reason why you get CS before stim is because It finishes a whole minute before stim and makes it easier to keep up the pressure. If the toss pushes you back 40 seconds before stim is done, you could have kept up the pressure by researching CS instead.
Also, 2rax works on pretty much no matter how large expect something like cross position on taldarem.
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I gave up 2 rax a while ago when I realized I didn't have the APM or micro for it. (110 average). If you are like me, and very good with micro, but don't want to risk an entire game relying on that micro, I would avoid 2 rax for a BO that better suits you (1219 pt. Terran last season).
I've also found that Protoss who aren't overly greedy with chronoboosting probes and have proper gateway production can stave off 2 rax really well UNLESS you are TSL_Polt and have near perfect, adroit micro.
I recommend 1 rax FE, since it's the standard in TvP. My favorite timing in TvP is MM with those first 2 medivacs, stim, combat shields, and +1. This is probably the strongest timing Terrans have in TvP, and this attack is largely indicative of whether or not you win the game. Generally you will know by the damage (or lack thereof) you do to the Protoss here whether you win the game.
With that said, the timing has everything you need and hits at a very strong time. Note you can also load up 1 medivac with 8 marines and send to his main mineral line to distract him and force your opponent to properly split his troops. All it takes is 1 moment of indecision for you to stim up the ramp, micro your drop back as he sends troops and capitalize on his error.
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EPT
