EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 322
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Misuari
Singapore45 Posts
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Prakas
United States30 Posts
I'm asking this because mid-late game, I'm flip flopping between 2 or even 3+ bases. Depending on the matchup, most of my buildings are in my main, with gateways/forge(s) along my expansions. Watching master and gm players, they are quickly going back and fourth mid-late game when chronoing, but I don't seem them looking and clicking for each building to chrono. However, when I'm playing, it's much more time consuming. Any suggestions? | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 08 2012 13:50 Prakas wrote: What's the most efficent way to chronoboost mid-late game? Is there a trick or do we need to manually click each building we want to chrono? Currently I use F hotkeys for each base, and "c" then click each building. I'm asking this because mid-late game, I'm flip flopping between 2 or even 3+ bases. Depending on the matchup, most of my buildings are in my main, with gateways/forge(s) along my expansions. Watching master and gm players, they are quickly going back and fourth mid-late game when chronoing, but I don't seem them looking and clicking for each building to chrono. However, when I'm playing, it's much more time consuming. Any suggestions? I'm still working on doing this effectively myself, but I feel like it all comes down to building positioning. You want to make sure that you have certain buildings next to each other and clumped together on one easy-to-see screen. For instance, you might group your forges and twilight together and always build them behind your mineral line in your main. You would group your 2 robos + colossus bay together and always build them close to your ramp, etc. By just getting used to grouping these units and placing them in the same general area every game, it'll become a lot easier to chronoboost quickly because you won't have to think too hard about where you put that building. (Of course, this is the bane of FFE where half of your buildings are sitting in front of your natural and half of them are sitting in your main base.) EDIT: And yes, you would just jump around using the F keys and individually click on the buildings you want to chrono. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 08 2012 13:50 Prakas wrote: What's the most efficent way to chronoboost mid-late game? Is there a trick or do we need to manually click each building we want to chrono? Currently I use F hotkeys for each base, and "c" then click each building. I'm asking this because mid-late game, I'm flip flopping between 2 or even 3+ bases. Depending on the matchup, most of my buildings are in my main, with gateways/forge(s) along my expansions. Watching master and gm players, they are quickly going back and fourth mid-late game when chronoing, but I don't seem them looking and clicking for each building to chrono. However, when I'm playing, it's much more time consuming. Any suggestions? Use Camera hot keys to cycle between bases faster | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 07 2012 00:51 Jasiwel wrote: Can anyone give me some advice when playing PvZ? I'm currently having a downward trend playing against Zerg. At first I thought I was doing fine after losing a PvZ to Roach 12 Minute Rush and then I corrected my mistakes to win against any Roach builds, but now it's looking like Zerg is completely capable of keeping me too contained and denying my scouting (Spores). When the lategame arrives, I just can't keep up with the Zerg who can remax faster than I can move up the ramp to his natural. Any suggestions? Generally I've found that the best solution is to complete both tech trees faster. If you can defend safely against any pressure, you should be getting up both colossus and templar tech as fast as possible so you can push with storm/feedback/archons/colossus and be dangerous against everything except BLords. In my opinion, you should aim for having both tech trees by 16-17 minutes for a big shove. From here, if you push right before BLords pop (you can get a good idea by planting an observer near the lair), you can, in many cases, outright win the game. If not, just push to different locations and deny bases while getting your 4th up. In my opinion, the game after this point just turns into a war of attrition like ZvT. The only difference is that both players have really slow-moving deathballs (in which case it can be likened to mech TvZ). Hope this helps! On September 08 2012 14:19 ineversmile wrote: Use Camera hot keys to cycle between bases faster Please read the post before giving out help. He said he already uses camera hotkeys. | ||
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coldSnaH
50 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
@coldsnah: other than praying you scout it and kill the wp with your first phoenix, you can rework your opening build to rely as little on sentries as possible, lots of phoenix openings get like 2-3 sentries and a lot of zealots which is pretty bad vs a warp prism 4gate. You could also trying to go up to 3gates and delaying your robo until you are safe, but i am not sure how the timings work out when it comes to also defending blink or dt's. | ||
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DeathAndPain
Germany17 Posts
I am not willing to provide a replay (so don't ask), because if I do, people will tell me how crappy my econ was or how I should have used my 1st zealot or crap like that which is totally off-topic. I am asking for general advice against Thor/Hellion as Protoss. You are protoss; your observer spots 10 Thors (and rising) and a couple hellions sitting in his base. What do you do? | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 08 2012 19:20 DeathAndPain wrote: Yes, I know, Hellion/Mass Thor is mostly played against Zerg, but I am facing the problem as a Protoss, and yes I know, I should not wait until the Terran has amassed Thors, but provided he got there anyway, with what can I fight that? I feel that Thors are practically impervious to any units other than zealots and immortals. Zealots are negated by his blueflames, that leaves me with immortals as the only option. However, amassing immortals is a very hard and slow thing to do and usually not possible when I scout him amassing Thors because I would need plentiful robotics, which build very slowly. Immortals do not build quickly either and cannot be warped in, so I do not feel I can amass them within a reasonable time frame. I tried HT, but their effect was very limited. I am not willing to provide a replay (so don't ask), because if I do, people will tell me how crappy my econ was or how I should have used my 1st zealot or crap like that which is totally off-topic. I am asking for general advice against Thor/Hellion as Protoss. You are protoss; your observer spots 10 Thors (and rising) and a couple hellions sitting in his base. What do you do? If your indication of mech play is that 10 thors are already out on the battlefield, you need to scout a lot more often. You should know about it when he has 2 or 4 thors out, and you should know it's either tanks or thors (or a mix of both) when you see him throw down a bunch more factories. So while you might think that how you use your first zealot is off-topic, I think that you don't take scouting seriously enough. I agree that the first zealot scout is not always foolproof, but the whole point of people bringing that up is that it's one part of a greater aspect of scouting: the initial probe scout, the Zealot or Zealot/Stalker poke to check his expo, the Stalker(s) out on the map to see if/when he moves out and with what units, then your Obs and/or Warp Prism which check his tech path, production, upgrades, and CC count. And beyond that, you still should constantly be scouting to check his army location, check his transition path, check his upgrade timings, and see if he's expanding again. If you see 2 thors and 4+ factories, you then have time to build an army that matches 10 Thors and a bunch of hellions. It's a lot easier to add on 2 more Robos and mass Immortals if you do it 5-10 minutes earlier, and the only way that's going to happen is if you get an earlier read that he's going full blown mech. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 08 2012 13:50 Prakas wrote: What's the most efficent way to chronoboost mid-late game? Is there a trick or do we need to manually click each building we want to chrono? Currently I use F hotkeys for each base, and "c" then click each building. I'm asking this because mid-late game, I'm flip flopping between 2 or even 3+ bases. Depending on the matchup, most of my buildings are in my main, with gateways/forge(s) along my expansions. Watching master and gm players, they are quickly going back and fourth mid-late game when chronoing, but I don't seem them looking and clicking for each building to chrono. However, when I'm playing, it's much more time consuming. Any suggestions? They're individually chrono'ing each building. It's just very fast, and entirely mechanics. The most efficient way is to have very good hotkeys/camera keys and keeping your warpgates close together. After that, it's months of practice. | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
not well at all | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
edit: @sc2john, well yeah, 3 stalker into 4gate is just another 4gate variation. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 08 2012 23:09 hooahah wrote: Regarding Taldarim PvP - I've been gone for a while, is 4gate still the only viable solution? I remember Whitera using an Immortal/Sentry strat and the chokepoint between the main and the natural to fight the 4gate, but I just tried that and it did not go that well not well at all The only other opening I've seen as viable on that map is a 3-stalker rush. Using your initial 3 stalkers, you can comb the area around your base quickly for pylons, snipe the initial probe, and still have quite a bit of units to deal with an incoming 4-gate. In addition, the 3-stalker rush transitions fairly well into 4-gate finishing around ~6:20. With 5 stalkers already out at that time, you should be about even with your opponent in units. But otherwise...4-gate is just really dominant on this map  . | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
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MahE
Canada275 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:52 aldochillbro wrote: I see a lot of top level pros gateway expanding in their main and then walling up later after expanding. How can they do this? What's a build order example? how can you hold off early pressure? if they early pressure will you be behind? I'm just curious because I'd like to get my tech up a little faster than ffe PvZ I assume? I would only ever do this vs hatch first. I assume you just mean expanding while skipping forge? If you scout hatch before pool you can safely 16 nex, then gate pylon gate cyber. Fairly intuitive, not sure a build order is necessary. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
If so, a rough build order for a 1 gate FE is: 9 pylon 13 gate 14 assim 15/16 pylon @ 100% gate: cybercore @ 100% gate: zealot (and keep producing units out of this gate while setting up your natural) 3rd or 4th pylon on the low ground (3rd pylon is recommended, imo) and depending on what you scout (you can scout at either 9 or 13 - 9 is safer, I think) you can start laying down Gate/Forge/Nexus at the natural in whichever order is safest. On maps with chokes to the natural, like CK or Ohana, you'll just need 2 buildings and a pylon to safely wall. On other maps, like Daybreak, 3 buildings will be required. No real strict build order here after core as it depends on what Z is doing. With adequate scouting you can hold vs early pressure such as 6 - 8 pools by either going dual gate at the ramp, or gate/forge. Other pressure like mass speedlings @ ~5.30 ish can be held again by good scouting and getting your wall up fast (this is why the 3rd pylon on low ground is important, imo) with a cannon or two and a good number of Sentries (the Sentries will also be required if he tries to transition into a Baneling bust). Roach-Ling all-ins hitting @ ~7.30 ish require a couple of cannons and a good number of Sentries (your scouting will tell you if you perhaps need to get the second assim faster). A good choke is super useful in holding these types of two base plays from Z. (Holding these types of attack is not easy, by the way.) Some links to read are: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Gate_1_Assim_FE_(PvZ) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NonY's_2_Gate_Sentry_Expand_(vs._Zerg) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353521 If you mean Yuffie style, Gate - Nexus, then see: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE_(vs._Zerg) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275 | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
On September 08 2012 19:20 DeathAndPain wrote: Yes, I know, Hellion/Mass Thor is mostly played against Zerg, but I am facing the problem as a Protoss, and yes I know, I should not wait until the Terran has amassed Thors, but provided he got there anyway, with what can I fight that? I feel that Thors are practically impervious to any units other than zealots and immortals. Zealots are negated by his blueflames, that leaves me with immortals as the only option. However, amassing immortals is a very hard and slow thing to do and usually not possible when I scout him amassing Thors because I would need plentiful robotics, which build very slowly. Immortals do not build quickly either and cannot be warped in, so I do not feel I can amass them within a reasonable time frame. I tried HT, but their effect was very limited. I am not willing to provide a replay (so don't ask), because if I do, people will tell me how crappy my econ was or how I should have used my 1st zealot or crap like that which is totally off-topic. I am asking for general advice against Thor/Hellion as Protoss. You are protoss; your observer spots 10 Thors (and rising) and a couple hellions sitting in his base. What do you do? If your scout time is when he already has 10 thors, you probably die but in general double robo with upgrades is good against thor/hellion, build immortals and collosus with some gateway units. Micro to isolate hellions from slow thors if possible. | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On September 08 2012 23:11 Teoita wrote: Yes it is. Just veto it like every other sensible p does. edit: @sc2john, well yeah, 3 stalker into 4gate is just another 4gate variation. While I realize that I'm probably quite alone in this, I actually rather enjoy PvP on TDA precisely because it's always 4 gates all the time. The 4-Gate is all but dead in all match-ups except the occasional use in PvT to punish a CC first, so it's nice to have a map where the build order is not only usable, but never in any question. Both players 4-Gate and the player with the best micro wins, simple as that. It's almost... refreshing nowadays to have a match where you don't have to focus on anything other than unit micro, and it's great practice to boot. On September 09 2012 18:49 BuddhaMonk wrote: If your scout time is when he already has 10 thors, you probably die but in general double robo with upgrades is good against thor/hellion, build immortals and collosus with some gateway units. Micro to isolate hellions from slow thors if possible. I would also like to point out that as silly as it sounds, carriers are really, really good against mech. My standard anti-mech play is phoenix/carrier, using the phoenixes to chase/lift hellions and carriers to slaughter everything else. With even half decent spreading to reduce splash, thors don't do anything against carriers, and vikings aren't a great solution either. Without any bio, Terran's only choice against phoenix/carrier is battlecruisers, which take so long to tech to and then produce that you can kill his entire scv line twice over with the phoenixes in the meantime. | ||
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scsequeL
47 Posts
http://drop.sc/248753 | ||
CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On September 10 2012 01:26 scsequeL wrote: How do you prevent getting cannon rushed in this situation ? http://drop.sc/248753 Once the pylons go down, you want to pull any workers from gas (if you have any that are in gas) CB a zealot, and make a forge of your own (unless you have a good reason to believe that you can kill off the rush before it completes, and don't need a cannon of your own, this is more a case of optimization, if you are unsure, just get a forge); when you pull workers, pull about 8, and don't stop them from attacking once your zealot is out--try attacking the pylons that will allow you to get access to the cannons the fastest. | ||
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