EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 233
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On May 10 2012 20:24 Sated wrote: Nope. Just use one of the safer versions of MC's build. Warpgate should be done by the time a 3rax hits and you'll have 3gateways worth of units to defend with, along with all the Probes at your natural (you can pull all those Probes and still be ahead because you have two bases to produce Probes from. I keep forgetting I can pull probes for defending... His army was a mix of 2/3 marines and 1/3 marauders. Do you know if there's a replay of someone defending this so I can see how it's done? I keep getting my little army smashed while warping in my reinforcements, which may be because I didnt' pull a single probe, but I'd still like to see someone handle it. Oh, and he had concussive shells, the bastard... | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On May 10 2012 20:41 TheExodus wrote: I keep forgetting I can pull probes for defending... His army was a mix of 2/3 marines and 1/3 marauders. Do you know if there's a replay of someone defending this so I can see how it's done? I keep getting my little army smashed while warping in my reinforcements, which may be because I didnt' pull a single probe, but I'd still like to see someone handle it. Oh, and he had concussive shells, the bastard... That's why pulling probes is needed. Probes are quite effective against not-upgraded marines, so he will be forced to micro, or probes will eat hm alive, and concussive doesn't do much against bunch of probes. Also time is runnning in your favor, the longer he is forced to run back-forth from your probes and troops, the more warp-ins you will be able to do. If he is smart, he'll pull back after losing rauder(or both) and will try to upgrade his eco and later do a medivac timing with drop/double-drop. But if he keeps the pressure he will start losing forces to your warp-ins, and eventually you can transition into 2 base immortal timing. 3 rax is very allin vs FE toss, until he kills your 2nd nexi, you are ahead. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:11 Rimak wrote: That's why pulling probes is needed. Probes are quite effective against not-upgraded marines, so he will be forced to micro, or probes will eat hm alive, and concussive doesn't do much against bunch of probes. Also time is runnning in your favor, the longer he is forced to run back-forth from your probes and troops, the more warp-ins you will be able to do. If he is smart, he'll pull back after losing rauder(or both) and will try to upgrade his eco and later do a medivac timing with drop/double-drop. But if he keeps the pressure he will start losing forces to your warp-ins, and eventually you can transition into 2 base immortal timing. 3 rax is very allin vs FE toss, until he kills your 2nd nexi, you are ahead. Do I just attack move the probes behind his army? | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:32 TheExodus wrote: Do I just attack move the probes behind his army? Well yes, it's very similar to ling surround. Usually you are able to flank him, but if you manage to get behind his army it's very neat. If you have micro available Shift-target stalkers to shoot down rauders and try to pull behind units with depleted shields. Also almost forgot it's very important to push him away from your nat, otherwise he may be able to get bunkers. If he brings all his scv's with him don't be afraid to pull all your probes. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:48 Rimak wrote: Well yes, it's very similar to ling surround. Usually you are able to flank him, but if you manage to get behind his army it's very neat. If you have micro available Shift-target stalkers to shoot down rauders and try to pull behind units with depleted shields. Also almost forgot it's very important to push him away from your nat, otherwise he may be able to get bunkers. If he brings all his scv's with him don't be afraid to pull all your probes. What I meant was should I just a-move my probes, no manual splitting them or anything, just a-move them straight into his army? | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On May 10 2012 22:17 TheExodus wrote: What I meant was should I just a-move my probes, no manual splitting them or anything, just a-move them straight into his army? It's better to just move them, and attack when you are in flank, or aleready surrounded him. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
I only ask because I started thinking about it after a game I was playing last night. I ended up smashing my opponent despite losing several early engagements after he just kept building immortals (and massing sentries for some weird reason) whilst I got out like...six colossi and melted his army. But I've also found in my own play that Immortals can actually perform pretty damn well against colossi (I took out a ten colossus-backed gateway force with a very immortal-heavy gateway composition a little while back, eventually losing because he was a base ahead). So are there any kind of ideal immortal numbers or is it all just guesswork? | ||
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polysciguy
United States488 Posts
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On May 10 2012 22:28 Lightspeaker wrote: Here's a question to ponder: when going robo into colossi does anyone have any idea what are "optimal" numbers for immortals before you switch to colossus production. I only ask because I started thinking about it after a game I was playing last night. I ended up smashing my opponent despite losing several early engagements after he just kept building immortals (and massing sentries for some weird reason) whilst I got out like...six colossi and melted his army. But I've also found in my own play that Immortals can actually perform pretty damn well against colossi (I took out a ten colossus-backed gateway force with a very immortal-heavy gateway composition a little while back, eventually losing because he was a base ahead). So are there any kind of ideal immortal numbers or is it all just guesswork? Which MU? | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
I thought it was obvious from my mention of colossi vs immortal wars.  PvP | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On May 10 2012 23:18 Lightspeaker wrote: PvP IMO 1, max 2 immos, to deflect early blink, then colo, colo, colo! | ||
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polysciguy
United States488 Posts
On May 10 2012 23:26 Rimak wrote: IMO 1, max 2 immos, to deflect early blink, then colo, colo, colo! I have to agree, though i have seen 3-4 at times. The only time i see more is with air openings | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On May 10 2012 23:30 polysciguy wrote: I have to agree, though i have seen 3-4 at times. I've seen that as well, which is why I'm curious if theres a consensus. Honestly I've gone up to six or even eight before today (for the lulz) and it doesn't half pack a punch. People don't expect you to be heavy on the immortals and they incredibly solid units. Wonder if a robo-heavy army (a la Terran mech) might be viable (with Stalker support, naturally). | ||
Lafer
United States114 Posts
Should I just wait until they expand to throw down an expo? My compisition is mostly sentries, an immortal or 2, and a few zealots while I expand. Even with force fields, I'll still lose to a number of builds. Am I just doing it wrong? | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:26 Lafer wrote: In PvP, when is a good time to expand? I open 2 gate robo ,pump an immortal followed by 2 obs, one I send to his base and the other I keep in case he sends dts. By this time I have enough for an expo, so I try to throw it down. If I am not bothered, I get the lead and I win in the end, but if he is doing some kind of delayed push, which happens in about 75% of my games, I lose. Should I just wait until they expand to throw down an expo? My compisition is mostly sentries, an immortal or 2, and a few zealots while I expand. Even with force fields, I'll still lose to a number of builds. Am I just doing it wrong? It's very hard to say without replays. Remember to build more gates while the nexus is building, chrono them probes and don't miss any warpin cycles. You should be able to saturate the other base fairly soon after it's done building. You do need stalkers too while defending in PvP though, as your zealots are useless when you have forcefielded your ramp. Edit: If you have enough minerals to plant your nexus while constantly producing units and probes it doesn't really matter if you delay your expansion, you still won't have more units  You could do a 3-gate robo though in case he goes for some kind of all-in. You won't be able to sustain production out of everything, but you can have more units earlier and just add 3 gates instead of 4 when you finally expand. | ||
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ImSoSerious
United States6 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On May 11 2012 12:00 ImSoSerious wrote: I have a problem: for PvRandom, I am usually fine with 1gate tech in PvP and PvT, which would go into 3stalker rush and 1gateFE respectively. Unfortunately, I regularly use FFE against Zerg. I have tried putting my pylon on low ground first to be prepared for a zerg opponent, sometimes I would see my opponent is a terran and, guess what, I get killed. A similar story occurs whenever I face a protoss opponent. Then, I tried walling in my main, which was pretty safe, I think. But that then gave my zerg random opponent time to expand and beat me in economy. I have tried pressuring in my one base while expanding, but alas, he had more units and I got steam rolled. My question is, what opening should I do to be flexible for all three matchups? Should I learn 3 gate fast expand for PvR(Z)? Please and thank you:DD Learn gate expands and do them well. Something like this. Tyler's 2 Gate Sentry Expand http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334564 I find from my vRs when they roll Zerg, that they try to take advantage of knowing that I'm Protoss and they'll blindly go hatch first a lot of the time, leaving them open to some light zealot/stalker pressure as well. In addition most Random players aren't particularly good at elongated games with all 3 races, indeed I've seen Zergs take stupidly fast 3rds against me because they forget how the flow of the game in PvZ works if the Toss isn't going FFE. Take advantage of these kind of errors and you'll profit. The key is to have a solid build that you can transition to quickly upon scouting his race. This build will need only moderate tweaks and will still flow well, for example because you'll want to scout earlier than Tyler does to determine your opponent's race. Also in that thread people say that you can still hold 6/7 pools with it, so if a Zerg is sneaky in that sense you should still be ok. | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
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YesEvil
Australia44 Posts
How do you beat a 1-1-1? I have tried everything, and they always seem to have an army and be ahead in eco. Its ridiculous. | ||
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