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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
Canada13389 Posts
On May 14 2012 06:51 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 06:00 ZeromuS wrote:Hi help me thread people! I recently got promoted into Master league (finally) and have been finding that people are doing more korean four gates than I remember facing in the past. I was wondering if there is any resource or suggestion on how to defend this rush well? As a note: I am referring to the zealot only 50 mined gas four gate that was common a long long time ago. I only ever faced it when I was in gold in the past, and thats a far cry from my current opponents skill level. Thanks to everyone for the help  I've tried a 3 stalker rush but the problem is that while I can kill the probe if a single pylon gets finished or they place a small number of them in my base there isn't much I can do to DPS the pylons before one of them finishes. Should I be making zealot/stalker as per normal and chrono the hell out of my WG tech? Even if I do this should I start at 12 gate and the standard 17 cyber their WG ends far before mine. Should my goal then be to get cyber before 2nd pylon, cut probes at 16 to get a fast zealot (for the 18 cap while a pylon finishes) and wall my main trying to keep pylons from going down in the main specifically? I want to have an idea on what to work on when I practice vs someone and not just jump in and experiment on execution. Thanks again guys :D I faced this today and won simply thanks to my simcity lol (the guy was low master). Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/179257; notice the pro sentry being trapped which ends up saving the day :D. I just kind of went up to 3gates and kept making units, pulling probes when necessary; i was able to force his pylons far enough so eventually i overwhelmed him. Also gratz on the promotion
Thanks Nice gtfo 
The only issue I have with that replay is that he only had one pylon down when you found the probe so he had to send another, but if he had 2 or 3 or even the standard 4 pylons up with the 400 minerals he was banking idk how you would have held. You really needed the travel time and additional pylon warp in time to defend there.
My question is what if you see the probe and it puts up some 3 pylons or even 4 of them. Should I be pulling what is ostensibly all my probes to kill the pylons? I guess sim city is the first step to helping defend this though and I will try to work on that for sure.
I might hop on my 2nd account and just k4g a bunch and see how others hold it whenever a PvP comes up and use that as a learning tool for myself too.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah the offensive gg might have pissed me off. Plus i was riding a badass 20 game losing streak (i even lost to hydras with colossi yesterday lol) so eh.
Anyway i agree that if he lays down more pylons im in serious trouble, but i'm not sure that's so realistic (plus the k4g is pretty slow since the wg nerf). I think (not 100% sure) that if you see the k4g coming you should always pull as many probes as possible to at least force the pylons away and to kill his probe, kinda like you would vs a cannon rush.
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When I go FFE or 1 gate- Nexus, when should I expect Zerg third? When do I know for sure that he's going 2 base all in?
Any tip about moving out against Terran when I just have 3 base up? It feels so risky when T can double drop two of my bases... Should I just turtle and max out on 3 base?
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 14 2012 16:46 Quochobao wrote:
When I go FFE or 1 gate- Nexus, when should I expect Zerg third? When do I know for sure that he's going 2 base all in?
Any tip about moving out against Terran when I just have 3 base up? It feels so risky when T can double drop two of my bases... Should I just turtle and max out on 3 base?
4.30 ish off no gas openings, 5.30/6 ish off speedling expand in theory. However often times people are straight up shit in lower leagues and do not take a fast third vs those openings, going 2base roach like it's a gate/cyber opening.
Regarding pvt, on 3base stage you should have a templar with storm per base and a couple cannons, before that it is indeed a bit risky to move out.
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 14 2012 18:28 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 16:51 Teoita wrote:On May 14 2012 16:46 Quochobao wrote:
When I go FFE or 1 gate- Nexus, when should I expect Zerg third? When do I know for sure that he's going 2 base all in?
Any tip about moving out against Terran when I just have 3 base up? It feels so risky when T can double drop two of my bases... Should I just turtle and max out on 3 base? 4.30 ish off no gas openings, 5.30/6 ish off speedling expand in theory. However often times people are straight up shit in lower leagues and do not take a fast third vs those openings, going 2base roach like it's a gate/cyber opening. Regarding pvt, on 3base stage you should have a templar with storm per base and a couple cannons, before that it is indeed a bit risky to move out. Templar is more for Feedback against drops. Knock the Medivacs out of the sky! A Templar with 3-4 Chargelots at each base will shut down single Medivac drops pretty hard. Moreover, if you're really having trouble against drops then make extra Observers and have them patrol along obvious drop paths. This is a good idea if you go Chargelot/Archon before going Colossi, because your Robo wouldn't be doing anything in that time anyway.
I agree with this but we really need more information from quochobao. What kind of opening is he doing? If he opens collossus into HT then he will need to be more turtley up until he has storm available to bolster his main force. If you are behind in upgrades leaving 30 supply of zealot/ht at home is really bad if you want to be aggressive.
Cannons and Hts once you hit 3 or 4 base is atually really good. we dont like to build cannons as protoss but terran and zerg build missile turrets and spores so we can too
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Is there any standard way to play PvP other than cheese, or hold off cheese?
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On May 15 2012 08:19 Orazio wrote:
Is there any standard way to play PvP other than cheese, or hold off cheese?
Sure. Colossus wars.
PvP is a quite interesting and very volatile matchup. It's all about trying to stay alive in the early game with something like a 3-gate robo and then expand painstakingly while constantly trading armies on the edge and trying to either outnumber your opponents colossus count or go for something more interesting like carrier+mothership.
I feel PvP has an undeserved bad rep, and I love to watch it.
I hate to play it though, too many cannon rushes and 1-base colossus 
User was warned for this post for editing out his warning
Edit: I think it's hilarious that you can actually edit out your own warnings, even though in this case it wasn't intentional :D
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 15 2012 13:17 TheExodus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:19 Orazio wrote:
Is there any standard way to play PvP other than cheese, or hold off cheese?
Sure. Colossus wars. PvP is a quite interesting and very volatile matchup. It's all about trying to stay alive in the early game with something like a 3-gate robo and then expand painstakingly while constantly trading armies on the edge and trying to either outnumber your opponents colossus count or go for something more interesting like carrier+mothership. I feel PvP has an undeserved bad rep, and I love to watch it. I hate to play it though, too many cannon rushes and 1-base colossus
One base collossus isn't so bad. Its a weird dynamic but if you open robo and see robo with gas saved and a support bay for the other guy you can do speed prism 2 immortal drops and either contain or flank collossus with dropped immortals. As far as one base collossus goes, if they lose their colo they lose the game. Alternativel, if you think they want to do a ranged collossus all in that hits later, you need to make colo range after prism speed. Since you have defenders advantage at home range is more important than having 2 collossus when he has 2 collossus. As long as you have 2 or almost 2 when he engages you should hold fine with range. 2 collossus without range are worse than one collossus with range when the opponent has collossus with range.
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HI guys !
I'm in trouble in PvT right now, since all Terran are cryin toss OP im facing a lots of "mass rax" timings on 2 bases. I use Creator style double Forge but it seems 3 gates robo is not enough to hold the push. I read that u need some cannons but terrans can dodge em with dropship.So Can you give me some advice guys ? thanks !
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On May 15 2012 21:44 Serge89 wrote:
HI guys !
I'm in trouble in PvT right now, since all Terran are cryin toss OP im facing a lots of "mass rax" timings on 2 bases. I use Creator style double Forge but it seems 3 gates robo is not enough to hold the push. I read that u need some cannons but terrans can dodge em with dropship.So Can you give me some advice guys ? thanks !
Go 1-gate FE (I still think MCs is the safest and best, even though it's not the fastest) in order to get a quick economy, get up to 5-gate robo with a colossus bay, take your third once your first colossus pops out and drop another robo and some more gates. Your third will come down at 12 mins or so.
Your macro is insanely important, you need to be on the ball with your probe production in order to afford all the stuff without missing any warpins (which is HORRIBLY important). Also remember you need to have a proper zealot/stalker mixture with some sentries. The mixture depends on his marine/marauder mixture. The more marauders he has, the more zealots you want.
GL!
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 21:44 Serge89 wrote:
HI guys !
I'm in trouble in PvT right now, since all Terran are cryin toss OP im facing a lots of "mass rax" timings on 2 bases. I use Creator style double Forge but it seems 3 gates robo is not enough to hold the push. I read that u need some cannons but terrans can dodge em with dropship.So Can you give me some advice guys ? thanks !
Post a replay. You shouldn't need cannons versus a terran that goes fast medivac and if your opponent masses rax into very slow medivac, the cannons will go a long way in your defense early on until you can get more units/tech for the later medivac harass.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 15 2012 13:36 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 13:17 TheExodus wrote:On May 15 2012 08:19 Orazio wrote:
Is there any standard way to play PvP other than cheese, or hold off cheese?
Sure. Colossus wars. PvP is a quite interesting and very volatile matchup. It's all about trying to stay alive in the early game with something like a 3-gate robo and then expand painstakingly while constantly trading armies on the edge and trying to either outnumber your opponents colossus count or go for something more interesting like carrier+mothership. I feel PvP has an undeserved bad rep, and I love to watch it. I hate to play it though, too many cannon rushes and 1-base colossus One base collossus isn't so bad. Its a weird dynamic but if you open robo and see robo with gas saved and a support bay for the other guy you can do speed prism 2 immortal drops and either contain or flank collossus with dropped immortals. As far as one base collossus goes, if they lose their colo they lose the game. Alternativel, if you think they want to do a ranged collossus all in that hits later, you need to make colo range after prism speed. Since you have defenders advantage at home range is more important than having 2 collossus when he has 2 collossus. As long as you have 2 or almost 2 when he engages you should hold fine with range. 2 collossus without range are worse than one collossus with range when the opponent has collossus with range.
Robo openers struggle really badly with phoenix openers, I wouldn't quite go so far as to call it an automatic win for the phoenix player but it's very hard to win from that position as the robo player. There was a time when Artosis was touting the strength of phoenix openers and blink stalker/obs openers because those are really the only two builds that don't really get 'hard countered' blindly.
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After watching the replay, i found thats not mass raxin but still, i have a lots of trouble dealing with this kind of terran sharking around and droppin everywhere.Please check where are my weaknesses :
Total Fail Replay
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On May 15 2012 23:15 Serge89 wrote:After watching the replay, i found thats not mass raxin but still, i have a lots of trouble dealing with this kind of terran sharking around and droppin everywhere.Please check where are my weaknesses : Total Fail Replay
Sorry, but I can't check the replay right now as I'm at work. Some general tips though;
Make sure you have vision around your bases. Use observers or pylons and keep an eye on the minimap to spot the drops.
Try having a HT at each drop location that can feedback the medivac when it shows up. If you're not at templar tech yet, have a few stalkers and zealots spread around. No need to keep all your forces at the front. Blink helps too, but as charge is usually better against terran you probably need to think about your positioning instead.
Get a few cannons at key locations around your base, they tend to scare of the medivacs.
If possible, keep a few warpgates idle to warp in at the closest pylon when you see a medivac close in.
Always, and I can't stress this enough, always have an eye on the minimap.
User was warned for this post
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Hi TL. Platinum protoss here, that needs some help with my PvZ
I'm really having some trouble with figuring out what to do on certain maps these days.
On many of the maps, like Ohana, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley, Daybreak I really like taking a early third.
Most zergs that are taking a early third almost always goes max on roaches these days, and my Robo 4gate with good sim city, cannons and forcefield defense works pretty well most of the time.
On other maps like Shakuras, Tal'Darim, Metalopolis and Antiga, I'm really strebbling with what to do.
My main problem is that I have no plan, wich is because i'm not really confident in going all-in. Im the kinda player that always macroes I really wanna learn some vs Z allins properly, but I dont really get the feel for what timing to hit, as I feel the zerg is always strong.
Can anyone give me some advices on strategies that still works ? I dont really know when the zerg is weak either, so i think its hard to read whats going on as well. When he is going for roaches, i feel that he can easily deny everything i can throw at him earlier too.
I'm open for everything. All-ins, different way to macro, etc. I dont really like going early air tho
So can someone share any strategies that is pretty strong, that still work? Preferably also with some ideas on how to execute them, what timing i would want to hit, link to VODs, replays etc.
Thanks in advance
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On May 17 2012 03:17 hersimp wrote:Hi TL. Platinum protoss here, that needs some help with my PvZ I'm really having some trouble with figuring out what to do on certain maps these days. On many of the maps, like Ohana, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley, Daybreak I really like taking a early third. Most zergs that are taking a early third almost always goes max on roaches these days, and my Robo 4gate with good sim city, cannons and forcefield defense works pretty well most of the time. On other maps like Shakuras, Tal'Darim, Metalopolis and Antiga, I'm really strebbling with what to do. My main problem is that I have no plan, wich is because i'm not really confident in going all-in. Im the kinda player that always macroes I really wanna learn some vs Z allins properly, but I dont really get the feel for what timing to hit, as I feel the zerg is always strong. Can anyone give me some advices on strategies that still works ? I dont really know when the zerg is weak either, so i think its hard to read whats going on as well. When he is going for roaches, i feel that he can easily deny everything i can throw at him earlier too. I'm open for everything. All-ins, different way to macro, etc. I dont really like going early air tho So can someone share any strategies that is pretty strong, that still work? Preferably also with some ideas on how to execute them, what timing i would want to hit, link to VODs, replays etc. Thanks in advance
Please take a look at this thread that Alej has very kindly set up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333477 This will give you a good idea of what kind of allins are more common in the proscene/ladder and the ones that actually have high win rates. (I was very partial to the 7 gate +2 blink allin but I'm trying to refine a version of an 8 gate +1/+1 immortal/prism timing atm)
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United States8476 Posts
On May 17 2012 03:40 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 03:17 hersimp wrote:Hi TL. Platinum protoss here, that needs some help with my PvZ I'm really having some trouble with figuring out what to do on certain maps these days. On many of the maps, like Ohana, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley, Daybreak I really like taking a early third. Most zergs that are taking a early third almost always goes max on roaches these days, and my Robo 4gate with good sim city, cannons and forcefield defense works pretty well most of the time. On other maps like Shakuras, Tal'Darim, Metalopolis and Antiga, I'm really strebbling with what to do. My main problem is that I have no plan, wich is because i'm not really confident in going all-in. Im the kinda player that always macroes I really wanna learn some vs Z allins properly, but I dont really get the feel for what timing to hit, as I feel the zerg is always strong. Can anyone give me some advices on strategies that still works ? I dont really know when the zerg is weak either, so i think its hard to read whats going on as well. When he is going for roaches, i feel that he can easily deny everything i can throw at him earlier too. I'm open for everything. All-ins, different way to macro, etc. I dont really like going early air tho So can someone share any strategies that is pretty strong, that still work? Preferably also with some ideas on how to execute them, what timing i would want to hit, link to VODs, replays etc. Thanks in advance Please take a look at this thread that Alej has very kindly set up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333477 This will give you a good idea of what kind of allins are more common in the proscene/ladder and the ones that actually have high win rates. (I was very partial to the 7 gate +2 blink allin but I'm trying to refine a version of an 8 gate +1/+1 immortal/prism timing atm)
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67175/?set=2&lang=
This game is the most clean immortal all-in I've seen yet. It gets only 6 gates, but you can keep your money at 0/0 with 44 probes and 6 gates of production. Any 8 gate immortal all-in is really inefficient imo, because you're probably overprobing if you can afford to spend off 8 gates or you're not macroing properly.
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Thanks alot for the tips, guys.
Did some practice with the "4Gate +1 Zealot into +1/+1 7Gate Immortal + WP", wich really suits me.
I like the idea of forcing some units before i do the real attack.
Just tried it in a game on ladder, and i kinda crushed him^^
That genius game was pretty good as well
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EPT
