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The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 236
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AuraFire
United States21 Posts
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whistle
United States141 Posts
On entombed it's also possible to create a full wall between the close side of your natural ramp and the far side of your main ramp, which allows traffic between your main and nat. I've only seen SsSe wall like this, I guess the advantage is that you get a full wall with fewer buildings but the disadvantages are that you've got less space for cannons cannons, and you can't "include" your third behind that wall. | ||
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AuraFire
United States21 Posts
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
How many obs do I need? When exactly do I expand and drop the robo? When do I add more gates or a second robo for hardcore colossus production? Should I cut probes at any point? thanks! Diamond NA by the way. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On May 17 2012 13:25 Mikelius wrote: Hey guys, quick PvP question. What is the best way to go about 2 gate robo expand into colossus? I'm looking for a very stable and safe build and Axslav has talked about this type of build that works pretty much vs everything? How many obs do I need? When exactly do I expand and drop the robo? When do I add more gates or a second robo for hardcore colossus production? Should I cut probes at any point? thanks! Diamond NA by the way. I do 2 gate robo a lot and there is unsurprisingly a lot of intricacy. You need to scout for not only gas timings initially and potential fourgate but also secondary scout for early expansion or very little gas spent. This being said, with the above scouting in mind this build is super safe and very good. I often make from my initial gateway - Zealot - 2 Stalkers (chronoboosted) - sentry I place my robo before the sentry is queued up and get my 2nd gas pretty fast after I queue the first zealot but i am messing about with getting it before the zealot. You need to place the zealot and 2 stalkers on your secondary ramp to be able to kill any probes that push up in case of a 4 gate attack. You also need to never be supply blocked and you need to have the robo closer to the ramp but not exposed and away from the edge of a base that a blink in can come from. In addition you need a pylon close enough to the ramp (think PvZ positioning) so that you can warp in sentries and forcefield with them. Against a 4 gate, you make immortals non stop and try to section part of his army on the ramp at a time as long as he can't warp in on the high ground making primarily zealots and immortals. If he goes for blink I really like to get a 3rd gateway up and often get my support bay before I expand. This is because immortals and collossi kill stalkers very quickly in tandem and you can expand pretty safely with 2-3 immortals and a collossus. Though, if i scout no robo from the opponent with my observer, I don't get the collossus out. I always make 3 observers vs blink obs and only one vs no blink obs. The reasoning is as follows: If he has blink and no obs I can watch for expansions with the initial obs and use my robo build time to make immortals. If he goes blink obs i need to try and snipe his observer any chance I get to shut down his use of blink. I often expand once I have 2 immortals in most cases and put my support bay down before I expand. If I see one base robo from the opponent, I get warp prism speed while making my 2nd immortal and queue up a warp prism. I then do speed prism immortal drops because I know he will be low on gas units that shoot up. The nice thing is even if I expand a little bit later, I am not far behind because I can start collossus production before him (i have support bay) and I can contain him or do some damage with the speed prism while my expo finishes. If I scout no gas or little gas being used (less than 250 total spent gas) with my secondary probe scout around the 5-6minute mark I always make 2 obs, I always hold position 2 stalkers and a zealot on the ramp (to block) and I keep my sentry around nearby. I used to send my 2nd obs to the opponent base and keep the first at home in case of DTs but with the latest change I can send the 1st obs to opponent base and keep the second at home. If you see super fast zealot archon or they one base DT transition to zealot archon just remember to build a wall, make collossus and keep zealots in front. The cool thing is, if the opponent decides to attack into your wall not only is he attacking into a choke, but if the archon is not in front, you can forcefield near the zealots of your opponent or behind your own. Focus the archon with your immortals and stalkers, while focusing the opponent zealots with your collossus and letting lots kill lots. You need the collossus to balance out the archon splash but once the archon is dead you can place a forcefield and kill whatever walked up the ramp easily. If you start to lose the zealot wall fight just warp in more zealots behind the dying ones and use a forcefield if necessary. As long as you force the zealots to back off and the archon forward to break the forcefield at the top of the ramp, you can focus the archon down and kill it quickly all while the opponent is doing zero dps in order to break the forcefield. Hope this helps somewhat, when it comes down to particular build orders, I am still ironing mine out and trying to squeeze out one more worker so that when I cut to get my tech down I have 6 in gas and 16 on minerals. Right now I have 14 MAYBE 15 and i think its down to my 3rd pylon placement timing. Not sure though. OH and i forgot to add, get collossus when you feel safe, generally as soon as my expo goes up and I know he isn't doing a one base all in I make collossus. I also go for range before making a collossus only because the only thing I ever had MAJOR issues holding with this build was a ranged collossus push. It sounds weird but when they go 2 immortal into ranged collo one base its actually really good. You need the ranged collossi to hold since the immortals won't ever hit the ranged collossi. The nice thing about range first is that with defenders advantage from the robo you can afford to start collossus later and still come out reasonably ahead. Same thing as vs zealot archon applies here too with FF usage. Try to ff the ramp at the top to force the collossi to walk into immortal range to break the ffs so that you can weaken them by hitting them a bit. It also buys just a little time for your own collossi. When expanding, you will see you have a LOT of gas, don't use it on sentries, I know its "good" macro but use those gas stores to get range asap and then collosi when you have the minerals to afford them. After you make collossi and range then you can add sentries if you want. Also, you only need the third gas at the nat right away. If you get 2 nat gas asap then you float way too much gas and you can't do double robo collossus. Better to delay the 4th gas for when your natural saturation is getting better. This helps you always make collossi and it also helps you to defend all ins better, since you won't be floating gas, the extra 3 probes on minerals can help you get more gates up or make more zealots sooner. Hope this helps and as always if I am wrong let know  | ||
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On May 17 2012 13:52 Mikelius wrote: So you never expand until you basically have the 2nd immortal and the robo support bay building? This depends on my scout. If i see one gate greed expand with obs i expo sooner. Otherwise you are correct. I primarily speed prism drop. If I see pheonix or other stargate builds I cancel the bay start a templar archives and go for fast charge. I sit about 4 stalkers in my mineral line and then I try to go for zealot archon with HT archons. IF I see him expand i make my expansion. If he expands and attacks with robo units and his pheonix and 3 gates of production (while retaining expo) I cancel my expo, I defend with zealot archon on my ramp and then I counter for the win. The reason for charge first is that I can feedback pheonix making them useless with some HTs once I have them and chargezealots are infinitely better than blink stalkers against the ground army that will be supplementing the pheonixes. Plus, When you have a lot of zealot archon, pheonix lifts become less effective. If I have 20 zealots and 2 archons and he has 6 pheonix I retain 14 zealots, and 2 archons. Immortal stalker or immortal sentry or immortal zealot wont be able to kill a 6 gate zealot archon army. Keeping in mind if he lifts my stuff near my pylon i can warp in hts and get some feedbacks. Killing pheonix with feedback is so so much fun. :D So, My pvp is actually quite complex in terms of decision making. My fault comes in making horrible one base all in decisions when I fail to scout a super early expansion in time (such as hidden base) or in misappropriating my double robo timing which is something I am still working on since there is a timing off one robo where you can transition to zealot archon if they opened zealot archon and failed an attack while always making collossus off of one base with +2 attack. But Im exploring the later mid game a lot in terms of when double robo is and isn't good. | ||
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bowenkhong
Singapore43 Posts
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On May 17 2012 23:44 bowenkhong wrote: Someone please help, I'm feeling damn mad with Terran right now. Can someone tell me how to stop 2 port banchee? Make an observer and half as many phoenixes as he has banshees. Stalkers are bad against mass banshees. | ||
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bowenkhong
Singapore43 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 17 2012 23:44 bowenkhong wrote: Someone please help, I'm feeling damn mad with Terran right now. Can someone tell me how to stop 2 port banchee? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266786 | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On May 18 2012 00:10 bowenkhong wrote: Can you explain to me a little when will you drop down the stargate? The moment you saw 2starport, and how about the 3rd and 4th gas? Drop it when you see two ports with tech labs. Get enough gas to sustain phoenix production. You won't face a lot of marauders or tanks, so no need for a lot of immortals. | ||
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bowenkhong
Singapore43 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 18 2012 00:55 bowenkhong wrote: Hi Monk I have been using MC 1 gate expend all the time, how to do you react to the 2port banchee. There wasn't any info on that. I have checked the link. Linked wrong link. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269312 | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On May 18 2012 00:57 NrGmonk wrote: Linked wrong link. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269312 Is the reason for that many cannons that you won't get out enough phoenixes in time? | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 18 2012 01:49 TheExodus wrote: Is the reason for that many cannons that you won't get out enough phoenixes in time? I wrote that a long time ago when maps like Xelnaga were in the map pool. With modern maps that all have one choke to the natural, sometimes a ramp, and longer rush distances, about 3 cannons is enough. The reason for them is that without them, the marines will kill you, as you don't have a good counter for them and the marines cover the banshees from phoenix too well. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On May 18 2012 23:50 Alejandrisha wrote: just recorded some commentary on gate-robo-gate expands in pvp. it focuses on dealing with 1 base pushes so obviously no colossusing will go down, though. encoding it into smaller vids and will link it from youtube Awesome! This is what I do in my PvPs as well; so thanks | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On May 18 2012 23:50 Alejandrisha wrote: just recorded some commentary on gate-robo-gate expands in pvp. it focuses on dealing with 1 base pushes so obviously no colossusing will go down, though. encoding it into smaller vids and will link it from youtube Expanding our horizons yet again, thanks alej :D | ||
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