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Fruitalchemist
Greenland51 Posts
On February 28 2012 17:20 CecilSunkure wrote: Changes from matchup to matchup, from game to game, and from opinion to opinion. My general opinion: < 8 early > 8 and < 12 mid > 12 late thank you for the quick replay..the reason im asking is for PvZ, im trying to found out what is the latest time you should take your third and forth.. | ||
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-y0shi-
Germany994 Posts
Cant post a replay right now since I have no idea how but Ill just give you the breakdown, nothing too exiting in the replay anyways.. I scout 1 Gas and a marine, so I have no idee whats coming. I get my second gas after the first stalker cleared the scv, get a robo, get a second stalker, then take my nat, then build 2 more gates. I get an obs, an immortal, a robo bay, a second obs (something like that) and warp some more units. Obviously terran has expanded before me since you can expand whenever you want as terran with no real way to punish or even scout it before you're behind. So I get my first colossi, start thermal lance, I have an obs over his army and he build marauders, gets 2 medicavs, walks across the map.. And now I dont have any idea what Im supposed to do.. I usually have 2 more gats at that point (barely). I try to sit at the ramp with my colossi, like 6 zealots and 3/4 sentrys and have the Stalkers in the main. Obviously the double drop comes so I move my stalkers over there while ffing my ramp barely in time. But the problem is that 2 medivacs is just too much for any amount of stalkers to kill, especially when hes behind the mineral line. My income also goes down, even if I pull the probes awa theyre still not mining. I just dont know how to clear that stupid drop, Id probably need my whole army to clear it and then he stims up the ramp and Im dead. So I basically have to leave only the sentries at the ramp and need to rely oin getting perfect forcefields? Because its super hard to ff off an army that can stim and run up your ramp at any moment and defend a drop at the same time. And even if I somehow manage to hold it, Ill always take SOME damage and terran is obviously never all in, he probably has taken another base already and Im sitting on 2 bases with a bunch of beat up gateway shit and 2 colossi... I can see how I can hold it somehow if I have a good day and perfect scouting/ff/unit split but even then I probably lost a bunch of stalkers and maybe even a few probes while he can just pick up and leave whenever he runs out of free marines... Sorry for the whine, Im just super frustrated right now, drop defence is soo hard and the moment you miss ONE, everything else you did doesnt even matter and youre probably dead... Might just go 3 gate stargate against terran >_> Please someone give me a hint / a replay / ANYTHING... | ||
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
Thanks in advance. | ||
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Audemed
United States893 Posts
I *can't* win PVP anymore. I just seriously can't. It feels like whatever I do, I just can't pull a win out. Phoenix/Immortal is strong at a certain timing, but fragile, and dies to 4gate unless they fuck up. Mass Immortal dies to sentries/blink, and they can keep you down the ramp forever. 1 base colossus just dies to almost everything, unless i'm playing against it. Expansion, lol Immortal drops are risky, god forbid he moves out as your WP is mid transit. I'm just feeling so lost here, especially since I"m doing *pretty* well (~60-65% win) in both other matchups | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On February 29 2012 12:53 Audemed wrote: Low/mid masters here. I *can't* win PVP anymore. I just seriously can't. It feels like whatever I do, I just can't pull a win out. Phoenix/Immortal is strong at a certain timing, but fragile, and dies to 4gate unless they fuck up. Mass Immortal dies to sentries/blink, and they can keep you down the ramp forever. 1 base colossus just dies to almost everything, unless i'm playing against it. Expansion, lol Immortal drops are risky, god forbid he moves out as your WP is mid transit. I'm just feeling so lost here, especially since I"m doing *pretty* well (~60-65% win) in both other matchups so what is your question exactly? Generally speaking you have to adapt your strategy and rely on scouting. As you stated you know the weaknesses so why don't you exploit them? | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On February 29 2012 12:16 Selendis wrote: So I'm finding that my 7gate (~7.5mins) is not working anymore against 3 base zerg. Initially when it started happening I figured my macro must have slipped or something, but this seems to be happening again and again. How do I reliably stop zerg from powering ahead on 3 base while I am stuck on 2? Thanks in advance. i think 7 gate works really well against Zerg. I have done it a lot the last weeks and i have close to 100% winrate at high master with it. I only stopped doing it because i got bored. A clean execution is super important. ~40 probs, proxy pylon, wall off your base to prevent counter attacks. It really works very well in the current metagame because nearly everbody is going fast 3 base or 2 base mutas. If you want to switch it up just here in the strategy section are a lot of builds explained. e.g. voidray zealot all in, warp prism sentry harasse, 2 immortal +1 +1 push, stargate etc... | ||
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Audemed
United States893 Posts
On February 29 2012 13:01 OrbitalPlane wrote: so what is your question exactly? Generally speaking you have to adapt your strategy and rely on scouting. As you stated you know the weaknesses so why don't you exploit them? I feel like there's nothing I can do. I want to be the agressor, but sentries prevent that. If I try to take the lead with expanding, I get killed. Archons and colossi bust FF's, but there's huge windows of vulnerability. Not to mention that if you want to scout without dying, you need to go early robo. How can I actually DO an immortal push? How do I not die if I got 3/robo blink and he goes mass immortal or colossi? What happens if he contains me with sentries and expands behind it? I've lost so much I don't even feel like I have a basis to improve upon. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
How can I actually DO an immortal push? why do you want to do an immortal push? In most cases you won't accomplish anything with that. The only thing that comes to my mind that would be useful would be against 1 gate nexus which you rarly see. How do I not die if I got 3/robo blink and he goes mass immortal or colossi? If he tries to attack your base you blink in his main as soon as he leaves his base. If he doesn't pull back you will basetrade and win. What happens if he contains me with sentries and expands behind it? Never happend to me. I don't think this is a viable build. Sentrys early out on the map would just auto loose against most builds.But if he does just use your tech and kill him. (colosses, blink, warp prism, phoenix...) | ||
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phyren
United States1067 Posts
On February 29 2012 12:00 -y0shi- wrote: Feel like breaking my keyboard right now, please help me Q_Q I just cant beat terrans anymore... Cant post a replay right now since I have no idea how but Ill just give you the breakdown, nothing too exiting in the replay anyways.. I scout 1 Gas and a marine, so I have no idee whats coming. I get my second gas after the first stalker cleared the scv, get a robo, get a second stalker, then take my nat, then build 2 more gates. I get an obs, an immortal, a robo bay, a second obs (something like that) and warp some more units. Obviously terran has expanded before me since you can expand whenever you want as terran with no real way to punish or even scout it before you're behind. So I get my first colossi, start thermal lance, I have an obs over his army and he build marauders, gets 2 medicavs, walks across the map.. And now I dont have any idea what Im supposed to do.. I usually have 2 more gats at that point (barely). I try to sit at the ramp with my colossi, like 6 zealots and 3/4 sentrys and have the Stalkers in the main. Obviously the double drop comes so I move my stalkers over there while ffing my ramp barely in time. But the problem is that 2 medivacs is just too much for any amount of stalkers to kill, especially when hes behind the mineral line. My income also goes down, even if I pull the probes awa theyre still not mining. I just dont know how to clear that stupid drop, Id probably need my whole army to clear it and then he stims up the ramp and Im dead. So I basically have to leave only the sentries at the ramp and need to rely oin getting perfect forcefields? Because its super hard to ff off an army that can stim and run up your ramp at any moment and defend a drop at the same time. And even if I somehow manage to hold it, Ill always take SOME damage and terran is obviously never all in, he probably has taken another base already and Im sitting on 2 bases with a bunch of beat up gateway shit and 2 colossi... I can see how I can hold it somehow if I have a good day and perfect scouting/ff/unit split but even then I probably lost a bunch of stalkers and maybe even a few probes while he can just pick up and leave whenever he runs out of free marines... Sorry for the whine, Im just super frustrated right now, drop defence is soo hard and the moment you miss ONE, everything else you did doesnt even matter and youre probably dead... Might just go 3 gate stargate against terran >_> Please someone give me a hint / a replay / ANYTHING... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133 try that build. It has been working really well for me. I get a decent amount of map control, so it is harder for the terran to push both the front and do drops as he has to worry I will overwhelm his frontal push before his drops reach me. Also, blink stalkers can catch medivacs, and if they do and get free kills, you are far far ahead. Most importantly, it is so macro focused that I just have more stuff. I can split my units to defensive positions to be ready for drops before they ever arrive. Even when a drop does a good amount of damage, terran is usually so invested to have enough army and tech to drop while also pressuring/defending a direct engagement, that I basically just have to survive and keep expoing and win once I'm maxed with collosus/storm and 15 gates. edit: srry, forgot to address your specific example. If you scout the gas, then that build doesn't really apply. Against that, the 2 gate robo is very safe but will put you behind most economic follow ups from terran. I personally prefer to 1 gate expand anyway but with more stalkers and chronoing warpgate. With your more defensive version you would need to do some pressure against an early expanding terran (say marauder expand or reactor expand). You don't want to press too hard off 2 gate robo as you wont have the most units. Still, an immortal or 2 can be scary for terran as they don't know if you will all in. Warp prism harass is also an option, though it usually only kills a couple depos or add ons agaisnt a good terran. It's hard to be more specific without a replay. Defending drops with collosus and unupgraded gateway units is hard though. You may want to plant some cannons as you will have a lot of extra minerals w/o getting the fast 3rd or chargelots. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
So my question is should I blindly make this first zealot or if I see them making a zealot what should I do? | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
If you open 1 gate into tech (robo, later gateways, stargate, twilight,...) e.g i would always get the zealot. It helps to defend against early agression, against gas steal and korean 4 gate. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On March 01 2012 09:53 ThePianoDentist wrote: Hi, if a terran lets me see his factory and basically confirm he's 1-1-1ing is one base colossus a good response. I find one base colossus is very gas starved so should I delay range to keep non-stop colossi production, is it better to have faster ranged colossi but maybe have one less for the major battle? also it it wise to just not expand at all until he's pushed and I've held it off. no 1 base colosses is not ideal. it can work but if the terran knows what he is doing he will win. look at this guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On February 29 2012 12:00 -y0shi- wrote: Feel like breaking my keyboard right now, please help me Q_Q I just cant beat terrans anymore... Cant post a replay right now since I have no idea how but Ill just give you the breakdown, nothing too exiting in the replay anyways.. I scout 1 Gas and a marine, so I have no idee whats coming. I get my second gas after the first stalker cleared the scv, get a robo, get a second stalker, then take my nat, then build 2 more gates. I get an obs, an immortal, a robo bay, a second obs (something like that) and warp some more units. Obviously terran has expanded before me since you can expand whenever you want as terran with no real way to punish or even scout it before you're behind. So I get my first colossi, start thermal lance, I have an obs over his army and he build marauders, gets 2 medicavs, walks across the map.. And now I dont have any idea what Im supposed to do.. I usually have 2 more gats at that point (barely). I try to sit at the ramp with my colossi, like 6 zealots and 3/4 sentrys and have the Stalkers in the main. Obviously the double drop comes so I move my stalkers over there while ffing my ramp barely in time. But the problem is that 2 medivacs is just too much for any amount of stalkers to kill, especially when hes behind the mineral line. My income also goes down, even if I pull the probes awa theyre still not mining. I just dont know how to clear that stupid drop, Id probably need my whole army to clear it and then he stims up the ramp and Im dead. So I basically have to leave only the sentries at the ramp and need to rely oin getting perfect forcefields? Because its super hard to ff off an army that can stim and run up your ramp at any moment and defend a drop at the same time. And even if I somehow manage to hold it, Ill always take SOME damage and terran is obviously never all in, he probably has taken another base already and Im sitting on 2 bases with a bunch of beat up gateway shit and 2 colossi... I can see how I can hold it somehow if I have a good day and perfect scouting/ff/unit split but even then I probably lost a bunch of stalkers and maybe even a few probes while he can just pick up and leave whenever he runs out of free marines... Sorry for the whine, Im just super frustrated right now, drop defence is soo hard and the moment you miss ONE, everything else you did doesnt even matter and youre probably dead... Might just go 3 gate stargate against terran >_> Please someone give me a hint / a replay / ANYTHING... 1. Probe scout. 2. Zealot-stalker poke. 2.5 Leave a scout near his base to see if he's going for a push 3. Obs scout. For everything else replay is needed. But here are general tips. I once saw mTwUnderdark doing a thing like leaving a coloss with couple of zealots in main to prevent from drops. Also if you are not playing some 1base allin, i don't see a reason not to FE against T. Double Forge all the way. Best of all - Become cool, get a glass of water, watch replay on SLOW (yes it's frustrating) 1 or 2 times, compare economy. Do you always build probes? do you supply block? do you constantly build units? have you scouted everything? | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
I usually open HerOic FFE (+1 4gate on Zergs fast 3rd) and then transition to robo + twilight and drop his main with zealots and maybe DT's. Something like this, and then I try to take my 3rd with units~~. So while playing like this, it's probably easy to say he is either going infestor or mutalisk with 2 bases but how to tell which one? I assume I want observer ASAP for this? Well that's solved then. However it's sometimes little harder to scout spire when he has 3 bases, maybe few spores, maybe you lose your observer... I don't really want to rely my scouting on seeing his base with observer - SO I ask, is there other way to scout Zergs Spire/Equal tech without observer? | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On March 01 2012 19:45 Ryndika wrote: Hi people ! I just wonder how you scout out for muta switch? 2 base muta AND 3 base roach into muta. Double gas at natural, lots of lings, lots of spines are clear indicators that he is going something gas-heavy, so it's: 1. Muta 2. Infestor 3. Crazy fast hive-tech. If you are not going air, then muta is more possible than infestor and Vice-Versa. | ||
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phyren
United States1067 Posts
On March 01 2012 19:45 Ryndika wrote: Hi people ! I just wonder how you scout out for muta switch? 2 base muta AND 3 base roach into muta. I usually open HerOic FFE (+1 4gate on Zergs fast 3rd) and then transition to robo + twilight and drop his main with zealots and maybe DT's. Something like this, and then I try to take my 3rd with units~~. So while playing like this, it's probably easy to say he is either going infestor or mutalisk with 2 bases but how to tell which one? I assume I want observer ASAP for this? Well that's solved then. However it's sometimes little harder to scout spire when he has 3 bases, maybe few spores, maybe you lose your observer... I don't really want to rely my scouting on seeing his base with observer - SO I ask, is there other way to scout Zergs Spire/Equal tech without observer? imo stargate and hallucination openings are the most reliable. My standard is a 4 gate +1 zealot with void ray opening. I get 1-2 voids and 1-2 phoennix afterwards while pressuring the third. The phoenix pretty much guarantee scouting as lair has finished. If zerg did not open fast 3 base, I'll make plenty of sentries and an extra cannon in case he is all-inning and research hallucination to hallucinate phoenix periodically and so have near perfect scouting. I grew to dislike blindly opening with a robo when mass mutas was the common zerg go to build. The robo and any collosus/immortals you've made are pretty much crippling against mass mutas. Still, if you want to stick with the robo, I think you'll find quick warp prism play best. With the shield buff, you can tank a little queen damage and get the same scout an observer would at that timing. You also threaten an offensive and force some units from zerg while keeping him back in his base. If you manage to drop a few sentries by a ramp you can threaten to perma ff and warp in to win the game. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On March 01 2012 19:45 Ryndika wrote: Hi people ! I just wonder how you scout out for muta switch? 2 base muta AND 3 base roach into muta. I usually open HerOic FFE (+1 4gate on Zergs fast 3rd) and then transition to robo + twilight and drop his main with zealots and maybe DT's. Something like this, and then I try to take my 3rd with units~~. So while playing like this, it's probably easy to say he is either going infestor or mutalisk with 2 bases but how to tell which one? I assume I want observer ASAP for this? Well that's solved then. However it's sometimes little harder to scout spire when he has 3 bases, maybe few spores, maybe you lose your observer... I don't really want to rely my scouting on seeing his base with observer - SO I ask, is there other way to scout Zergs Spire/Equal tech without observer? Without an observer I can't recommend hallucination highly enough. Its absurdly underused and sentries are useful to have against most things zerg can put out anyway (either guardian shield or force fields). And its not as if your Cyber Core is going to be doing much else anyway after you've got Warpgate tech unless you're going heavy air. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
I got on Yabot to try to practice mechanics. I'm currently trying to practice Warp Ins. What is the hand motion people use to make things be fluid? I don't want to be clicking on the minimap to build units (unless this is the best) I'm currently keeping Pylons at control group 2 so that to warp in I double tap 2 and then press W and then I start building units and as they're warping in I box select them then press shift+3 to add them to control group 3 (my main army control group) My control group setup is currently 1-Nexus 2-Pylon/s 3-Main Army 4-Special Tactics I've rebound 0 to ~ and I've rebound backspace to spacebar. I've also rebound Probes from E to S because my muscle memory tells me to build SCVs that way. Am I doing this wrong or am I just having a hard time with the new format? Been working on this for a few days so far. When I play Terran I use spacebar to bounce from Orbital to Orbital. I also normally use the ~ to hold on to an upgrade Structure. I also sometimes add upgrade structures to control group 1 and have them bunch up with my Orbital Commands. I was curious if this is a good idea for Protoss because the Nexus doesn't change form so you don't have to tab through too many buildings to make units. Any help to improve practice will be appreciated. | ||
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