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i haven't seen anyone comment on the opener nestea used in game 1 vs hongun in GSL july ro4 on Dual Sight, where he did:
10 OL (extractor trick drone)
12 pool
15 overlord
15 Queen + 4lings
19 hatch
2nd queen
rest of the build in that game, truncated because it's mostly reactionary due to his opponent's FFE:
+ Show Spoiler +
(scouting OL +lings sees FFE ~4min)
24OL
tumor from 2nd queen first inject
32 Hatch 3rd
35OL
37OL
3rd queen
geyserx2 at main ~6min
6:58 evo chamber time
4th queen
warren @~7min
7:45 ling speed + spore(s)
5-6 OLs
8:30, some roaches/drones, +1 ranged
8:45 3,4 geyser (nat)
60 drones @9 minutes, lair, 5, 6 gas (3rd), more roaches, fewer drones
16-20 lings, spines (x2-4 ~9:50)
1-stargate = 1 spore at each base
2-stargate = 2 spore at each base
hydra tech, roach speed, +2 range, hydra range, burrow
3-4 OLs at a time
bane nest, +1 armor, speed
1:1:1 hydra roach ling.
He did this without drone scouting (on a 2 player map).
Anyone have any comment on why he chose this opener specifically (considering it was blind)?
I've never seen anyone 12 pool in a game, but perhaps this is more efficient if you don't take a gas until 43 supply??
(edit: the general consensus so far is that this is a solid and viable opener on 2-player maps where FFE + expansion block is likely. This includes none of the current maps in the season 3 ladder pool though.)
My only thoughts on this are directly pulled from jdeesmoreglass's thread here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464
In this thread, he shows that 12pool standard is only 10-20 minerals behind the 14 pool standard over the 6 minutes he tracked. This is essentially the identical.
(see here + Show Spoiler +
Aside from the obvious plus of having an earlier pool and hence queen + lings, the 12 pool is unique in that it has the most larva production at the time when you take your natural expansion:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5oV8m.png)
So my question is, why don't zergs use this opener in zvp?
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I've used this opener or the very similar 11 overpool 19 hatch for a while on maps where forge expand is likely.
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On August 02 2011 22:10 DeltruS wrote:It is the same as the 11 pool 18 hatch build except, since normally the pool goes down the same time as the overlord pops, he gets and extra drone and delays the pool a few seconds. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/11_Pool_18_Hatch
Yeah, I guess that's my real question. Why is the 11 pool 18 hatch so popular against protoss when this option exists which is superior in every way I can see?
I mean in beta we saw the 13 pool give way to the 14 pool, perhaps the 11/18 will give way to 12/19? Every drone counts I suppose!
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What's the advantage of the extra larva against FFE then? Since 15 hatch has been "proven" to be more economical on TL, AFAIK.
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On August 02 2011 22:15 Daniel C wrote:
What's the advantage of the extra larva against FFE then? Since 15 hatch has been "proven" to be more economical on TL, AFAIK.
Well, against ZvP I can't really think of any pro who recommends opening 15hatch. (darkforce, idra, sheth come to mind). But if I'm not mistaken, all three of those guys recommend something very much like a 15gas/pool, which is what I usually try to use unless I'm feeling cheesy.
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On August 02 2011 22:17 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:15 Daniel C wrote:
What's the advantage of the extra larva against FFE then? Since 15 hatch has been "proven" to be more economical on TL, AFAIK. Well, against ZvP I can't really think of any pro who recommends opening 15hatch. (darkforce, idra, sheth come to mind). But if I'm not mistaken, all three of those guys recommend something very much like a 15gas/pool, which is what I usually try to use unless I'm feeling cheesy.
Ah you're right sorry I mixed up the builds.
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On August 02 2011 22:15 Daniel C wrote:
What's the advantage of the extra larva against FFE then? Since 15 hatch has been "proven" to be more economical on TL, AFAIK.
Are you sure you mean 15 hatch? Losing an expansion to a cannon rush is not economical, which unfortunately is the reality against a forge first protoss.
In terms of comparing this build to a normal 14pool opener the Inherent advantage in this i think is to stop the Protoss from blocking your natural with pylon (then gate/core) delaying your natural hatch. Having the lings out that small time earlier would definitely allow for a guaranteed expansion, rather than having your timings thrown off by Protoss shenanigans.
Afaik It has less to do with the Early pool's advantage of producing additional larvae at certain points in the game and more with allowing Nestea to follow through with a set planed BO that he can have prepared before the game. If you teach yourself and invest the week of practice in a ton of timings vs forge first play only to have everything thrown off by a significant margin because the protoss decided to invest 250 minerals in stalling your expo, you can find yourself in very awkward situations. By the looks of it the 12pool has minimal side effects and certifies that Nestea has control of the early game to do what he wants.
Edit: I'm totally stealing this shit.
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i use this build for some time now (because i read the stats from jdsee). It has similar advantages like 11 overpool, but is slightly more economic and there is no larvae idle time. However the pool is some seconds later (which is ok regarding typical cheese/attack timings).
You can safely expand fairly early with a good economy. You use lings for scouting instead of drones, which yields ~100 more mins @5'00.
Consider a slightly more economic variant compared to nestea:
9 ov, 12 pool, 16 ovie, 16 queen, 18 extracotr trick into a pair of lings to scout nat and incoming bunker/cannon cheese. 18/19/20 expand
You get a quite early queen and can put a really early spine if necessary. A very safe and reliable build especially for ladder.
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That graph doesn't make sense. How can the vertices of the drone-count lines occur at non-integer drone numbers?
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On August 03 2011 01:43 gastro54 wrote:
That graph doesn't make sense. How can the vertices of the drone-count lines occur at non-integer drone numbers?
The builds were played several time and the average numbers where taken. SC macro has a small amount of random
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Holy Moly, NesTea is a Genius.
This build is ridiculously good for tournaments and games you want to prepare extensively for. It smooths out some major exploitable areas on large maps inherent in 14pool or gas/pool builds against Protoss FE's that lets a Protoss gain a considerable timing and economic advantage that leaves the zerg either behind for the early/midgame* or with the decision to allin to try to end it early, often very scoutable by top Protoss'
*The economic advantage of the protoss would be comparable to something slightly more than a 16nexx vs 14/14 gas-pool whilst also throwing off a zerg's ingrained timings and larvae management. However i might need to test this ingame more.
TLDR; Super Impressed!
It's more than viable, I would go so far as to say it's better.
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I would say that Nestea did this 12/19 blindly because
a) combined knowledge of dual sight being a good map to FFE with studying hongun, Nestea knows that hongun will "likely" FFE with the possibility of cannon rushing if Nestea goes hatch first which would be devastating
and
b) this is a 2-player map so Nestea knows that hongun knows exactly when to send out his probe to block the normal hatch timings with pylons until lings are out, which is why Nestea got a 12 pool to get early lings.
I cannot watch the match so I have no idea why nestea would go banelings after he already got roach/hydra tech, and how he would know if hongun is doing either
a) 7gate
b) DT
c) stargate
d) standard colli ball
Did Nestea throw down blind spores after evo was done? But I still don't know how nestea would know if kiwi's 7gate +2 with blink and obs is coming or P is just going fast 3rd and turtling because he won't have ovi speed in time (I was sure he would get ovi speed along with burrow but in this game you said he didn't go for them) and slow ovi would never scout anything against a good protoss.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with nestea's opening vs protoss, but when does he get a 4th? in this case i would guess after he holds off P's first push/aggression.
If possible, do you know what hongun did that game? So I might know why Nestea makes those decisions during the mid-game.
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I am beginning to use this build in every one of my ZvP (even on Xel Naga) because it's safe and economical.
FFE being more and more popular I think that the delayed gas is really not an issue.
Cannon rush should also become a free win.
But this build have weaknesses. The delayed gases makes you more vulnerable to gateway pressure. For example the Hister's PvZ pylon pressure is hard to defend.
As soon as you have cleared your nat with the 4 lings you have to scoot is front door to know if he is chronoing some units. In case of more than one zeal, you have to throw down a gas and a roach warren immediately.
A smart toss can also be very greedy and expand of one gate knowing that you wont have any speedlings to punish it.
On Xel Naga or as a precautionary measure if I don't know if he is FFEing or not I like to throw the first gas at 20 supply just before the expo (as his probe will delay it a little bit anyway, 19 expo is really a best case scenario). That's depending on the map obviously, don't do that on Tal Darim.
So to sum things up I would recommend this build on any FFE favorable map. The 4 lings will allow some early map control (make them active though) and you don't have to commit too early in taking your gas.
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11pool 18hatch is the most economic pool-first build, but I remember that the programs that came to that conclusion didn't use a scouting drone. Perhaps 12pool 19hatch is more optimal if you intend to drone scout?
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What kind of damage did he manage to do with his 8 lings? I think this is very important to add to the OP.
8 lings from a 12 pool can usually kill the zealot in the front with a little micro, but can they stop the cannon from going up in a FFE?
Also, why are people comparing the economic aspect of the build? The OP outlined a pressure build with 8 lings, not an economic build!
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On August 12 2011 21:48 Sbrubbles wrote:
What kind of damage did he manage to do with his 8 lings? I think this is very important to add to the OP.
8 lings from a 12 pool can usually kill the zealot in the front with a little micro, but can they stop the cannon from going up in a FFE?
Also, why are people comparing the economic aspect of the build? The OP outlined a pressure build with 8 lings, not an economic build!
No he meant 4 lings as in 2 pairs of lings. So the supply jumps from 15 to 19 with the queen.
The 4 lings aren't there to do damage but to get the earlier expo (kill any pylon block) and map control. If you are lucky and the Toss doesn't complete the wall of in time you can at best sneak them in, do minor damage and get unlimited scouting but really it's not a pressure build.
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Personally the reason I find 12 pool to be effective is that it punishes nexus first very easily even on Tal'Darim. Secondly it gets your hatch down faster than 12 pool since you secure your natural faster.
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The build also feels very smooth. When you are at 15 supply, the next larva pops and you have exactly 100 Minerals for an overlord. The overlord finishes at the same time as the pool and you will have exactly 250 minerals for queen + 2 sets of zerglings.
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ok so I watched the game and tried it out in a tester, and like the above poster says the timings line up really nicely for the 15 ov and the queen + lings. Unfortunately this doesn't leave room for a drone scout at all, which I don't really like, but if Nestea does it then I suppose it must be safe. Anyway I won't be using it in my own games but it's a nice build, and definitely a viable standard opener, to answer the OP's question.
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Just my personal experience here: when doing an 11/18, my economy feels sluggish and behind. When I do a 15/15/15 my economy feels slow, but it ramps up really quick, especially with a money drone transfer  and pumping drones like a boss <3
As I've never done a 12/19 i have to imagine the difference is marginal when comparing it to a 11/18, but would be willing to try it in certain circumstances. As I have Zel'Naga vetoed, would you be so kind as to note how drone scouting would affect this? To me, a drone scout would really not work with this, but a drone scout is sooo crucial, at least in my opinion.
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Why do you feel the drone scout is crucial?
I do this opener on every protoss FFE map and I typically find the lings sufficient for scouting purposes.
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On August 14 2011 16:41 Kalekin wrote:
Why do you feel the drone scout is crucial?
I do this opener on every protoss FFE map and I typically find the lings sufficient for scouting purposes.
Do you actually play Zerg? The only scouting you'll ever do is in the beginning b4 the great wall sets in and you can't scout at all. Lings can't do anything.
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The 12 pool would force a protoss into going forge cannon nexus instead of forge nexus cannon I'd imagine, I don't think it arrives soon enough to get lings into the main if the protoss goes forge cannon nexus though which means that a drone scout could still be useful?
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On August 12 2011 16:05 Trakky wrote:
I would say that Nestea did this 12/19 blindly because
a) combined knowledge of dual sight being a good map to FFE with studying hongun, Nestea knows that hongun will "likely" FFE with the possibility of cannon rushing if Nestea goes hatch first which would be devastating
and
b) this is a 2-player map so Nestea knows that hongun knows exactly when to send out his probe to block the normal hatch timings with pylons until lings are out, which is why Nestea got a 12 pool to get early lings.
I cannot watch the match so I have no idea why nestea would go banelings after he already got roach/hydra tech, and how he would know if hongun is doing either
a) 7gate
b) DT
c) stargate
d) standard colli ball
Did Nestea throw down blind spores after evo was done? But I still don't know how nestea would know if kiwi's 7gate +2 with blink and obs is coming or P is just going fast 3rd and turtling because he won't have ovi speed in time (I was sure he would get ovi speed along with burrow but in this game you said he didn't go for them) and slow ovi would never scout anything against a good protoss.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with nestea's opening vs protoss, but when does he get a 4th? in this case i would guess after he holds off P's first push/aggression.
If possible, do you know what hongun did that game? So I might know why Nestea makes those decisions during the mid-game.
If I remember correctly, the evos were blind, but preemptive to deal with 1-stargate or dt play--a calculated investment due to him having almost no defensive units at that time (unless you count 70 drones)
On August 12 2011 21:24 barrykp wrote:
11pool 18hatch is the most economic pool-first build, but I remember that the programs that came to that conclusion didn't use a scouting drone. Perhaps 12pool 19hatch is more optimal if you intend to drone scout?
He doesn't drone scout with this build.
What I'm really curious about though is if he did this opener against a player who didn't FFE, how would he transition from that?
I've tracked some of his ladder games lately (and customs) and I haven't found an instance where he has tried this build again, but there are some commonalities (mainly, upon scouting a FFE, he drops a 3rd before 30 supply).
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I´m a huge fan of 12 pool on 2 player maps in ZvP. 2 players maps garantee that your hatch first plans are thwarted against a competent opponent, or even worse lead to a direct loss against cannons. 12 pool is the fastest pool build that doesnt waste larvae, 11 hatch does so a little, and allows the fastest expansion because have lings to unblock the expo really quickly. The quick lings also mean you don´t need to scout and even put some potential pressure on a FFE build.
If you assume that the P will always block your expansion untill you have lings out ´on a 2 player map then 12 pool is the most econimical opening. It doesn´t allow a dronescout in the build but there is no need for that on 2 player maps anyway.
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On August 14 2011 16:03 Hossinaut wrote:Just my personal experience here: when doing an 11/18, my economy feels sluggish and behind. When I do a 15/15/15 my economy feels slow, but it ramps up really quick, especially with a money drone transfer and pumping drones like a boss <3 As I've never done a 12/19 i have to imagine the difference is marginal when comparing it to a 11/18, but would be willing to try it in certain circumstances. As I have Zel'Naga vetoed, would you be so kind as to note how drone scouting would affect this? To me, a drone scout would really not work with this, but a drone scout is sooo crucial, at least in my opinion.
"feelings" are quite misleading. Builds which are short on larvae often times feel "economic" as you always have money when there is larvae. However if you do exact tests, it might turn aout you simply have produced less drones overall...
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12 pool 19 hatch was what i did back in patch 1.0 vs protoss.. it was the only build where you could beat 2 gate zealot with pure lings. I used it since on Jungle Basin to be safe from all the cannon possibilites/kill back rocks and drone very nicely on 3 base.. Great to see NesTea has found a better way to use it
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Been doing this on all toss FFE maps since I saw nestea do it as I really liked the idea. Sometimes you can even get a pair of lings inside their base because they don't expect the early pool. Keeps you safe from cannon shenanigans aswell.
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Well it's good on 1v1 maps in which he will most likely fast expand... Theres a few GSL maps like that but no ladder maps like that. You can't afford to drone scout. Maybe on Shakuras it would be viable but it's a risk on Tal'darim. Maybe Antigua Shipyard...
Yeah basically it's viable but you have to know where your opponent is without drone scouting for it to be truly effective. Protoss are greedy though and you might get away with it even if you have to scout a base wrong.
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On August 14 2011 16:57 Jaxtyk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 16:41 Kalekin wrote:
Why do you feel the drone scout is crucial?
I do this opener on every protoss FFE map and I typically find the lings sufficient for scouting purposes. Do you actually play Zerg? The only scouting you'll ever do is in the beginning b4 the great wall sets in and you can't scout at all. Lings can't do anything.
lings are able to scout for 4 gate, Forge first builds, expand or one base. The only crucial thing you miss is gas timing. However you can get this information later using an ovie from behind the mineral line. Also if a P does not expand always expect stargate play or dt. The early drone scout does actually not give you that much more information, and it is very expensive that early in the game..
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On August 14 2011 16:57 Jaxtyk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 16:41 Kalekin wrote:
Why do you feel the drone scout is crucial?
I do this opener on every protoss FFE map and I typically find the lings sufficient for scouting purposes. Do you actually play Zerg? The only scouting you'll ever do is in the beginning b4 the great wall sets in and you can't scout at all. Lings can't do anything.
You don't get really get information with the drone scout. All you see is if all his stuff is there. Lings can do that. Protoss gas timings really don't tell you a lot. He will normally kill drone before it sees anything vital
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i'll have to try this out on some two player maps when i do some practice games today. it seems that it's a safe choice, and as the OP pointed out, it would be exceptionally good on a map like dual sight where FFE is common and effective.
that said, i'm not sure i'd use this on four player maps. i'd much rather 15p-16h on maps where FFE isn't necessarily a standard, since it's also safe and can power more effectively after the 5 minute mark. it's also not quite as weak against zeal/stalker harass as the other pool first alternatives are due to earlier gas and natural creep spread. i'm assuming 12p-19h is a bit weak against this harass.
i'll post back later with my reaction when i play around with this build in a bit.
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On August 14 2011 22:03 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:05 Trakky wrote:
I would say that Nestea did this 12/19 blindly because
a) combined knowledge of dual sight being a good map to FFE with studying hongun, Nestea knows that hongun will "likely" FFE with the possibility of cannon rushing if Nestea goes hatch first which would be devastating
and
b) this is a 2-player map so Nestea knows that hongun knows exactly when to send out his probe to block the normal hatch timings with pylons until lings are out, which is why Nestea got a 12 pool to get early lings.
I cannot watch the match so I have no idea why nestea would go banelings after he already got roach/hydra tech, and how he would know if hongun is doing either
a) 7gate
b) DT
c) stargate
d) standard colli ball
Did Nestea throw down blind spores after evo was done? But I still don't know how nestea would know if kiwi's 7gate +2 with blink and obs is coming or P is just going fast 3rd and turtling because he won't have ovi speed in time (I was sure he would get ovi speed along with burrow but in this game you said he didn't go for them) and slow ovi would never scout anything against a good protoss.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with nestea's opening vs protoss, but when does he get a 4th? in this case i would guess after he holds off P's first push/aggression.
If possible, do you know what hongun did that game? So I might know why Nestea makes those decisions during the mid-game. If I remember correctly, the evos were blind, but preemptive to deal with 1-stargate or dt play--a calculated investment due to him having almost no defensive units at that time (unless you count 70 drones) Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:24 barrykp wrote:
11pool 18hatch is the most economic pool-first build, but I remember that the programs that came to that conclusion didn't use a scouting drone. Perhaps 12pool 19hatch is more optimal if you intend to drone scout? He doesn't drone scout with this build. What I'm really curious about though is if he did this opener against a player who didn't FFE, how would he transition from that? I've tracked some of his ladder games lately (and customs) and I haven't found an instance where he has tried this build again, but there are some commonalities (mainly, upon scouting a FFE, he drops a 3rd before 30 supply).
Once you find a game where losira/nestea does this opening and doesn't see a FFE, I would love to see their transitions. If it's such a great opening, I wonder why this doesn't get used more (even Nestea himself as you mentioned).. Overall, great writeup. What I do now against FFE to scout for those tech is to sac an ovi (sometimes 2 if I'm lucky depending on map positions) at around 7:30 and getting 1 blind spore in each base in case of DTs.
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Been using a similar build for a while now. Not only against ffe. I just hate it when my natural gets pylonblocked, and with this build you have the lings out in time.
If your opponent doesnt go ffe I recommend to build a gas right before the pool finished at 15 supply and delay the overlord. then go queen+2lings and an expansions at 18, then overlord + drone on 
This will allow you to finish ling speed at the time a 4gate would be incoming.
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I like too much make 9 pool against toss.
It's a very strong against FFE and from the beginning u make a pressure (with 6 lings), normally I focus the pylon and with he have zelot kill him with a little micro, but I just plat and I don't know if work with u.
Link 9 pool
But this BO is more economic that 9 pool.
I'll test this BO
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I think that the scout drone is a non issue, you don't really see that much with it, on non 1v1 maps could be an issue but other than that, and you'll have very early lings so you can scout with that, and Zerg has been finding ways to figure what the opponent is doing just with the info on the front of their base, sentry counts etc.
I think that even though they don't really use it much on ladder and public games, I'm sure losira and nestea practiced this build quite a bit, and I think they may be holding it back so they can then surprise some protoss on GSL.
I haven't tried this build, I actually haven't played in the last 3 weeks :S but from the feedback on the comments I think that this is very good as a standard vs FFE, now I think that we should use this against FFE but wait until they do it more against other protoss builds so we can see how they transition.
Overall I don't really think that the opening is even that important once you get to the mid game, I think that the openings are very important to keep you alive, but once you get 3 base and reach mid game it really doesn't matter. Now a good opening will get you to the mid game more often and in better shape but that's the only thing that matters in my opinion because Zerg can switch mass production of X to Y really quickly, in other races it's more of an issue because you have to begin to make the production facilities really early to have a good production mid game, with zerg that doesn't matter, so I think that openings are more important than in other races in the way that other races can just block the ramp so they can easily stay alive, but are less important for zerg on the production side of things.
So with that I think that we can conclude that what really matters is that you stay alive for the mid game with this build, and as many already said this is very good versus a lot of early/cheesy shenanigans, now I think that you can pretty much do anything you want in the mid game, so I see that "oh but the transition" kind of a non issue, even though I think that we should wait and see what transitions they make, this is before we can make this a standard opener versus Protoss, but I think that this build really had the potential for that.
What do you think about what I said guys? Looking forward to your reactions and sorry for the long comment
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fc6j0.png)
