EPT[D] ZvP: Nestea's 12p 19h, viable standard opener? - Page 2
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barrykp
Ireland174 Posts
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
 and pumping drones like a boss <3As I've never done a 12/19 i have to imagine the difference is marginal when comparing it to a 11/18, but would be willing to try it in certain circumstances. As I have Zel'Naga vetoed, would you be so kind as to note how drone scouting would affect this? To me, a drone scout would really not work with this, but a drone scout is sooo crucial, at least in my opinion. | ||
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Kalekin
South Africa7 Posts
I do this opener on every protoss FFE map and I typically find the lings sufficient for scouting purposes. | ||
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Jaxtyk
United States600 Posts
On August 14 2011 16:41 Kalekin wrote: Why do you feel the drone scout is crucial? I do this opener on every protoss FFE map and I typically find the lings sufficient for scouting purposes. Do you actually play Zerg? The only scouting you'll ever do is in the beginning b4 the great wall sets in and you can't scout at all. Lings can't do anything. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6195 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 12 2011 16:05 Trakky wrote: I would say that Nestea did this 12/19 blindly because a) combined knowledge of dual sight being a good map to FFE with studying hongun, Nestea knows that hongun will "likely" FFE with the possibility of cannon rushing if Nestea goes hatch first which would be devastating and b) this is a 2-player map so Nestea knows that hongun knows exactly when to send out his probe to block the normal hatch timings with pylons until lings are out, which is why Nestea got a 12 pool to get early lings. I cannot watch the match so I have no idea why nestea would go banelings after he already got roach/hydra tech, and how he would know if hongun is doing either a) 7gate b) DT c) stargate d) standard colli ball Did Nestea throw down blind spores after evo was done? But I still don't know how nestea would know if kiwi's 7gate +2 with blink and obs is coming or P is just going fast 3rd and turtling because he won't have ovi speed in time (I was sure he would get ovi speed along with burrow but in this game you said he didn't go for them) and slow ovi would never scout anything against a good protoss. I'm not sure how familiar you are with nestea's opening vs protoss, but when does he get a 4th? in this case i would guess after he holds off P's first push/aggression. If possible, do you know what hongun did that game? So I might know why Nestea makes those decisions during the mid-game. If I remember correctly, the evos were blind, but preemptive to deal with 1-stargate or dt play--a calculated investment due to him having almost no defensive units at that time (unless you count 70 drones) On August 12 2011 21:24 barrykp wrote: 11pool 18hatch is the most economic pool-first build, but I remember that the programs that came to that conclusion didn't use a scouting drone. Perhaps 12pool 19hatch is more optimal if you intend to drone scout? He doesn't drone scout with this build. What I'm really curious about though is if he did this opener against a player who didn't FFE, how would he transition from that? I've tracked some of his ladder games lately (and customs) and I haven't found an instance where he has tried this build again, but there are some commonalities (mainly, upon scouting a FFE, he drops a 3rd before 30 supply). | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If you assume that the P will always block your expansion untill you have lings out ´on a 2 player map then 12 pool is the most econimical opening. It doesn´t allow a dronescout in the build but there is no need for that on 2 player maps anyway. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On August 14 2011 16:03 Hossinaut wrote: Just my personal experience here: when doing an 11/18, my economy feels sluggish and behind. When I do a 15/15/15 my economy feels slow, but it ramps up really quick, especially with a money drone transfer and pumping drones like a boss <3As I've never done a 12/19 i have to imagine the difference is marginal when comparing it to a 11/18, but would be willing to try it in certain circumstances. As I have Zel'Naga vetoed, would you be so kind as to note how drone scouting would affect this? To me, a drone scout would really not work with this, but a drone scout is sooo crucial, at least in my opinion. "feelings" are quite misleading. Builds which are short on larvae often times feel "economic" as you always have money when there is larvae. However if you do exact tests, it might turn aout you simply have produced less drones overall... | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
Yeah basically it's viable but you have to know where your opponent is without drone scouting for it to be truly effective. Protoss are greedy though and you might get away with it even if you have to scout a base wrong. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On August 14 2011 16:57 Jaxtyk wrote: Do you actually play Zerg? The only scouting you'll ever do is in the beginning b4 the great wall sets in and you can't scout at all. Lings can't do anything. lings are able to scout for 4 gate, Forge first builds, expand or one base. The only crucial thing you miss is gas timing. However you can get this information later using an ovie from behind the mineral line. Also if a P does not expand always expect stargate play or dt. The early drone scout does actually not give you that much more information, and it is very expensive that early in the game.. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 14 2011 16:57 Jaxtyk wrote: Do you actually play Zerg? The only scouting you'll ever do is in the beginning b4 the great wall sets in and you can't scout at all. Lings can't do anything. You don't get really get information with the drone scout. All you see is if all his stuff is there. Lings can do that. Protoss gas timings really don't tell you a lot. He will normally kill drone before it sees anything vital | ||
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listal
United States228 Posts
that said, i'm not sure i'd use this on four player maps. i'd much rather 15p-16h on maps where FFE isn't necessarily a standard, since it's also safe and can power more effectively after the 5 minute mark. it's also not quite as weak against zeal/stalker harass as the other pool first alternatives are due to earlier gas and natural creep spread. i'm assuming 12p-19h is a bit weak against this harass. i'll post back later with my reaction when i play around with this build in a bit. | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
On August 14 2011 22:03 michaelhasanalias wrote: If I remember correctly, the evos were blind, but preemptive to deal with 1-stargate or dt play--a calculated investment due to him having almost no defensive units at that time (unless you count 70 drones) He doesn't drone scout with this build. What I'm really curious about though is if he did this opener against a player who didn't FFE, how would he transition from that? I've tracked some of his ladder games lately (and customs) and I haven't found an instance where he has tried this build again, but there are some commonalities (mainly, upon scouting a FFE, he drops a 3rd before 30 supply). Once you find a game where losira/nestea does this opening and doesn't see a FFE, I would love to see their transitions. If it's such a great opening, I wonder why this doesn't get used more (even Nestea himself as you mentioned).. Overall, great writeup. What I do now against FFE to scout for those tech is to sac an ovi (sometimes 2 if I'm lucky depending on map positions) at around 7:30 and getting 1 blind spore in each base in case of DTs. | ||
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StoRm_res
Switzerland891 Posts
If your opponent doesnt go ffe I recommend to build a gas right before the pool finished at 15 supply and delay the overlord. then go queen+2lings and an expansions at 18, then overlord + drone on  This will allow you to finish ling speed at the time a 4gate would be incoming. | ||
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bmw_mat
Brazil24 Posts
It's a very strong against FFE and from the beginning u make a pressure (with 6 lings), normally I focus the pylon and with he have zelot kill him with a little micro, but I just plat and I don't know if work with u. Link 9 pool But this BO is more economic that 9 pool. I'll test this BO | ||
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HardBoy359
Portugal48 Posts
I think that even though they don't really use it much on ladder and public games, I'm sure losira and nestea practiced this build quite a bit, and I think they may be holding it back so they can then surprise some protoss on GSL. I haven't tried this build, I actually haven't played in the last 3 weeks :S but from the feedback on the comments I think that this is very good as a standard vs FFE, now I think that we should use this against FFE but wait until they do it more against other protoss builds so we can see how they transition. Overall I don't really think that the opening is even that important once you get to the mid game, I think that the openings are very important to keep you alive, but once you get 3 base and reach mid game it really doesn't matter. Now a good opening will get you to the mid game more often and in better shape but that's the only thing that matters in my opinion because Zerg can switch mass production of X to Y really quickly, in other races it's more of an issue because you have to begin to make the production facilities really early to have a good production mid game, with zerg that doesn't matter, so I think that openings are more important than in other races in the way that other races can just block the ramp so they can easily stay alive, but are less important for zerg on the production side of things. So with that I think that we can conclude that what really matters is that you stay alive for the mid game with this build, and as many already said this is very good versus a lot of early/cheesy shenanigans, now I think that you can pretty much do anything you want in the mid game, so I see that "oh but the transition" kind of a non issue, even though I think that we should wait and see what transitions they make, this is before we can make this a standard opener versus Protoss, but I think that this build really had the potential for that. What do you think about what I said guys? Looking forward to your reactions and sorry for the long comment | ||
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