EPT[G] TvZ Mech Play Timing Push - Page 3
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Milith
France10 Posts
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Pam
France33 Posts
If there's any points missing feel free to pm me about it I add another replay against mass speedlings | ||
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TheBigO
United States97 Posts
However, as a personal preference, I am not a fan of transitioning into mech after the opening attack. My reason is simple: I am terrible at macroeing when playing mech because I am terrible at managing my mineral to gas spending when playing this style as terran. Instead, I prefer to go marine tank after the build and getting a starport for medivacs. My question to you is how would you change the build order during and after the push to accomodate for a marine tank composition? First, I would like to know how many barracks I should create (and what add ons and upgrades I should get first for my marines). Second, I don't know if I should build one engineering bay with an armory, two engineering bays, or two engineering bays with an armory since getting several upgrades at once can be quite expensive. Thirdly, I don't know if I can even get a starport before getting to 3 bases since two factories and upgrades are already gas intensitve enough. Finally, if the zerg player is going mutalisks, should I still produce two thors since I will now have more marines to counter the mutalisks? Thank you for reading this and any advice you can give my would be really helpful. | ||
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Pam
France33 Posts
You can refer to the doctor's guide, which is really accurate, and seems to be marine/tank related I think, in order to be efficient, it's better to go either mech or marine tank, and don't invest on technology which won't help you through the game If you really want to keep the push as it is, you may switch the rax with a fac with tech lab, start a starport on the reactor and add 4 - 5 rax don't double armory, one is enough and get only +1 attack for vehicles, start double ebay instead If you find yourself limited on gaz, create helions instead of tank, use them to scout and stuff, it's always good to have quick units on the map About my build, I'm going to rewrite it in order to aim for a ghost/mech comp', maybe a video to work on my accent here's a replay of preview http://replayfu.com/r/3sTr2j | ||
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TheBigO
United States97 Posts
Secondly, I want to thank you for the advice. I never would have thought of swapping so many add-ons. I can tell one of your greatest talents is your ability to manipulate building add-ons in your build orders. I hope you continue to do that in your future build orders. Finally, I want to comment about rewriting your build for a ghost/mech composition. I feel there are both pros and cons about the build that I can think of. There is also a recent post about the composition, which I will link here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256880 As the post explains, ghost/mech is a powerful LATE game composition. I agree with that, and as your replay shows, you are easily able to transition into adding ghosts once you are on 3 bases. However, I think it would be very difficult to add in ghosts directly after the opening push when you are on two bases because of their gas cost. Most of the gas should be devoted to thors and more upgrades while on two bases because gas is so limited. At the same time, ghosts are situational units. If the zerg player doesn't have infestors to EMP or brood lords to snipe, adding ghosts would not be as cost effective as adding more thors. Whatever you do though, I am sure that the polished build will be just as deadly as the current one. Again, thanks for the advice Pam and good luck. | ||
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Silentness
United States2821 Posts
It was my first time trying the build and I still rolled my opponent. Siege tanks are so powerful and I have a constant production of reactor marines so it faked my opponent into thinking I was going bio until I pushed out with a ton of siege tanks and blue flame hellions. I didn't even have any thors because he went ling + heavy infestor. *thumbs up to this build* | ||
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Pam
France33 Posts
I'm going to change the video into a more standard one, it's really rare that I go battlecruiser, taking that game was a little bit of a mistake (even if others points were made) As TheBigO noticed, the ghost/mech play is not viable on two bases (and it wasn't my intention to do so), it's something which depends on the z behavior, but it's rare that they stick to muta lings/full roach at 15" in the game I think it's possible to orientate this build into a 3 bases play, with the thirth cc coming at 10" There are some adjustements that I need to make, especially about the transition while pushing, but with the possible modification of blue flames I'm quite enthusiast about how I can change this build into a quick +1 push | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
On August 21 2011 04:18 TheBigO wrote: Hey Pam. I checked out the doctor's guide, and there is a build created by SlayerS that opens reactor helion expand, but it ops for a faster starport for an elevator drop for a major attack. The one advantage I can think of is that this elevator drop bypasses the wall of spinecrawlers I see zergs doing nowadays, but I feel the attack is weaker without the tanks. Still, I can't wait to try out that build and transition. Secondly, I want to thank you for the advice. I never would have thought of swapping so many add-ons. I can tell one of your greatest talents is your ability to manipulate building add-ons in your build orders. I hope you continue to do that in your future build orders. Finally, I want to comment about rewriting your build for a ghost/mech composition. I feel there are both pros and cons about the build that I can think of. There is also a recent post about the composition, which I will link here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256880 As the post explains, ghost/mech is a powerful LATE game composition. I agree with that, and as your replay shows, you are easily able to transition into adding ghosts once you are on 3 bases. However, I think it would be very difficult to add in ghosts directly after the opening push when you are on two bases because of their gas cost. Most of the gas should be devoted to thors and more upgrades while on two bases because gas is so limited. At the same time, ghosts are situational units. If the zerg player doesn't have infestors to EMP or brood lords to snipe, adding ghosts would not be as cost effective as adding more thors. Whatever you do though, I am sure that the polished build will be just as deadly as the current one. Again, thanks for the advice Pam and good luck. Not quite true, ghosts are very good against mutalisks obviously and still do decent damage vs zerglings. Also, you use them to nuke around the map. Extremely cost effective, and easier for you to do than for him to defend. Also, because snipe is instant, having a lot of ghosts is really powerful even if he goes mass roach or mutalisks, since you can take out like 20 mutalisks with 10 ghosts with 150 energy each in the first few seconds of the battle, or like 15 roaches. And like all spell casters, ghosts are very supply efficient. On August 25 2011 11:45 Pam wrote: Ok, so I think I'm going to update this after the 1.4 patch, to see what can be removed or not depending on the changes I'm going to change the video into a more standard one, it's really rare that I go battlecruiser, taking that game was a little bit of a mistake (even if others points were made) As TheBigO noticed, the ghost/mech play is not viable on two bases (and it wasn't my intention to do so), it's something which depends on the z behavior, but it's rare that they stick to muta lings/full roach at 15" in the game I think it's possible to orientate this build into a 3 bases play, with the thirth cc coming at 10" There are some adjustements that I need to make, especially about the transition while pushing, but with the possible modification of blue flames I'm quite enthusiast about how I can change this build into a quick +1 push BFH still kills lings in 2 hits, so really there need not be any changes regarding the patch. Also, ghost mech does work on 2 bases, if you get ghosts immediately after your usual hellion/marine poke so you can stack up on energy, and then push with a couple thors (or without, depending on zerg's infestor/muta timings). Your ghosts and/or thors deal easily with infestors and mutas, and you have a hellions to deal with lings. The only problem is mass roach, which isn't hard to deal against you just need to make some marauders and cut a few ghosts, and push with scvs to repair thors. The idea is that you snipe a 5-10 roaches to death instantly, so that the strength of the thors being repaired is much more significant. At least, it's been working for me so far. May be it won't work at the GM level, or maybe it won't work at the pro level, but it works at mid-high masters, which I think is good enough for most people. I'm thinking on posting a guide sometime if i keep finding success with it. | ||
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Matalon
Israel9 Posts
On August 25 2011 11:45 Pam wrote: Ok, so I think I'm going to update this after the 1.4 patch, to see what can be removed or not depending on the changes I'm going to change the video into a more standard one, it's really rare that I go battlecruiser, taking that game was a little bit of a mistake (even if others points were made) As TheBigO noticed, the ghost/mech play is not viable on two bases (and it wasn't my intention to do so), it's something which depends on the z behavior, but it's rare that they stick to muta lings/full roach at 15" in the game I think it's possible to orientate this build into a 3 bases play, with the thirth cc coming at 10" There are some adjustements that I need to make, especially about the transition while pushing, but with the possible modification of blue flames I'm quite enthusiast about how I can change this build into a quick +1 push I don't think the build should be affected too much by the potential BFH nerf after 1.4 patch. Lings will still get 2 shot (and still 3 shot without blue flame, even if +1 mech attack is researched). The major change will be drones - will be 3 shot instead of 2 (untill +1 mech attack, then blue flame will 2 shot drones). So I don't understand why +1 will be important for the push. Edit: Also, thank you for posting and updating this build. I use something similar but going to try your version. I also love 3 rax ghost transition after 3 base. It helps so much vs all the weakness of mech late game. | ||
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Autunno
Brazil147 Posts
Btw, NA master terran (I was diamond before the build ;D). Edit: I would not get too concerned about being in 2 bases for a little while (say start 3rd CC @ 12ish) because the push usually does a lot of damage or at least keeps the zerg wondering. Also, is very rare for the zerg to engage you while you are on 2 bases, and mutas are easily nulified by thors + couple of turrets, and by the time you float your third you have the army to defend it. I also think that the blue flame is still viable army wise, it'll just be an upgrade that people will not get when solely using them for harass. | ||
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BONE
United States176 Posts
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SaberNodoka
151 Posts
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Autunno
Brazil147 Posts
On August 30 2011 04:18 SaberNodoka wrote: Saw a guide similar to this and tried but failed. Do you scan his main before you move out for a spire? I manage to punch thru zerg's 3-4 spines at front then the mutas came and took out my push. You probably didn't hit the proper timing. For this push to be effective you need to hit @ around 9 minuts mark, no later than this. And you should also have about 9-10 marines and keep them alive, so if he throws mutas out you can hold em (he will never have gas to produce more than 7 mutas at once at this point in the game, and if he is producing that many mutas, he won't have ground units and you can just to roast his drones). Edit: also, you cannot hope to always win or do major damage with this, you need to know how to transition from this properly. this is a macro mech build with a strong timing with relatively fast expansion, if it would win you all games it would be broken =). Edit 2: If I don't see many units in the front while poking with hellion I assume he is teching and waiting to get his third right when the infestor or spire tech comes out, you can throw out a scan but I think is unecessary in light of the points I discussed before. | ||
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SaberNodoka
151 Posts
On August 30 2011 04:32 Autunno wrote: You probably didn't hit the proper timing. For this push to be effective you need to hit @ around 9 minuts mark, no later than this. And you should also have about 9-10 marines and keep them alive, so if he throws mutas out you can hold em (he will never have gas to produce more than 7 mutas at once at this point in the game, and if he is producing that many mutas, he won't have ground units and you can just to roast his drones). Edit: also, you cannot hope to always win or do major damage with this, you need to know how to transition from this properly. this is a macro mech build with a strong timing with relatively fast expansion, if it would win you all games it would be broken =). Edit 2: If I don't see many units in the front while poking with hellion I assume he is teching and waiting to get his third right when the infestor or spire tech comes out, you can throw out a scan but I think is unecessary in light of the points I discussed before. Thanks, it is probably as what you said, I played too rigidly to the build. Will try again! | ||
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Pam
France33 Posts
If there's no unit, you can a-move the spine, they don't do that much damage against helion, and it can be preferable to kill them fast then siege really close to his hatchery (here you need a scan when you enter his creep) I've tried 2 - 3 variation to the push, the thing which remains the most important is the timing you hit the zerg wait for a third tank, supposedly it's better if there's roach, but the delayed timing => more roach to kill Add a third factory on the reactor => delayed timing, less money, less marine (which are great), less gas for the following go armory for fast +1 => kills the timing é_è, not enough gas at this state of the game Going ghost mech on 2 base => I don't think it's the good choice even if the z goes heavy on the infestor, good tank sieging + focus fire is enough for 5 - 6 inf' | ||
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Callandor
Australia57 Posts
I've used this mech opening for a month now. I've won so many more tvz's than I used to. The most absolutely important thing about this push is the timing. If the zerg gets too greedy he dies, if he makes too many units you've done your job. Also the hellions stop him from getting any vision outside of the front of his base on most maps. | ||
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lukasdesign
Switzerland93 Posts
I love your play as it keeps up pressure while gaining (or keeping up) an economic lead (without a sneaky third or something like that). as a big fan of Thor/hellion play I just would like to add some suggestions. I believe that Thor/Hellion/SCV+Repair is strong enough to beat every Zerg combination. Against Broodlords I sugget to read Griffith' post about Hellions + SCVs following the Thors. Same trick is used against mass Zerglings. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205159http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205159[/url It works works like a charm While if you face masses of roaches its key to pull the Hellions in front of the Thors and manually placing the SCVs behind the Thors ON the other side i believe that Banshee or Ghosts could be integrated in this build once the 3rd is up and running. Banshees when facing too many roaches, or even against Infestors as they don't die to quickly to fungal. Ghosts on the other side are great against BL and Infestors. Hold Fire + Hold Position and Shift clicking Snipe kills BL in no time. 3-4 (maybe cloaked) Ghosts with full energy also take out a complete mineral line + 2 Queens in a couple of seconds. Another trick I often use is something like a "Macro CC" or "Macro OC". Having an additional CC in the mid game gives access to unlimited SCVs and are another great mineral sink. They get killed quickly in these battles so we need a lot of them. This also allows to get a PF at the third without ever being short on MULES or Scans. Please keep up this great work. Cant wait to learn about ur findings about the 1.4 Patch. I hope its not ru | ||
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Autunno
Brazil147 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:07 lukasdesign wrote: ON the other side i believe that Banshee or Ghosts could be integrated in this build once the 3rd is up and running. He does get ghosts or banshes after 3 bases in some games, I think he didn't specify the transitions in the guide as it's army dependent (did he go infestors? did he go mutas?). There's even a game where he went ravens with HSM on late game, which is nice to be tinkering with since it'll have a buff in the next patch. | ||
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Molgate
United Kingdom1 Post
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lukasdesign
Switzerland93 Posts
Split the SCVs and make each little group following one Thor with autorepair on it does wonders. I also prefer to prioritize Armor over Attack upgrades. | ||
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