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Hey!
Im Mellon, i'm roughly 1600 masters on EU and i've been having a very easy time with Terran lately, keeping around 80% win vs them. I've been feeling recently that something must be fundamentally wrong with some of the Terran openers. Nowadays many people are doing double rax w/ reactor and tech lab, researching concussive, and pushing out between 5:30-6:00 trying to score some free kills. Taking some map control and putting down a CC at around 7:00 in their base. Later on adding reactored starport for medivacs and vikings.
If the toss opens with 1 gate robo, your safe against any 2 rax pressure, and your also safe if your opponent tries some kind of all-in, since you'll have scout information and are able to react properly. After having added a robo you put down another two Gateways. Since the Terran attack can hardly do any damage, you can add your robo bay very early, while going quite zealot heavy, and eventually chronoing your colossi+range. I generally attack when i got 2 colossi and range finished. Once in the fight it's easy to micro, focus colossi on the Marines, shoot the few vikings with your stalkers, if any even is out. And while attacking, you'll have added a Nexus on your own if the attack is failed. Thing is, it's always been a complete freewin vs this kind of opener.
Important note: Haven't actually encountered it on maps with a easy-to-hold expansion, on maps like Shakuras or Tal'darim. But with the sight advantage of Observers and Colossi i don't see how it would matter. Most terrans don't do it on those maps.
So the topics for discussion: Is it remotely safe to do 2 rax > CC vs a 1 gate robo opener? Can it ever be held? What's the proper response if so? Also, is 1 gate robo a safe opener on all maps with a ramp?
Replay(s)
+ Show Spoiler +
This guy made some obvious mistakes, spent a couple of Scans resulting in nothing. He didn't see my Robotics bay so that obviously hurt him alot. Unfortunately i haven't saved any more replays vs 2 rax CC, will add more once i face more.
Hopefully this post is ok! 
/Discuss
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That's how we used to play PvT 5 months ago, when everybody was thinking that tech is more important than eco.
The problem is that drops are going to hurt you really hard and then there's no chance for you to move out until he's already prepared for the colossus.
And the build get's destroyed by the 3/1/1 all-in many Terrans are still doing.
I'll try it out myself though, I'm a bit higher ranked than you (2000 Masters), I'll post some replays!
StarGate Opening is the most awesome thing ever btw 
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He can't really drop me that early, and if he does i'll crush his front either way. I can hold it off with a colossi coming out + warp-ins. If the game would take a few more minutes i'd agree on it!
Also, i'd never do colossi vs some kind of all-in. If i scout a factory with tech lab i put down council and chrono charge asap. If i scout starport with tech lab i can go phoenix.
The point is, with the early maphack (well kinda )) I see exactly whats going on, and react properly to it. I don't start the game thinking, "no matter what im gonna rush for colossi and attack". It's more a reaction towards what he's doing. I add my bay before i scout him, and cancel if i smell something funny.
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The game you posted was an example of you doing an all-in VS a Terran who was ready to play a straight up game.
How can I prove this is all in. Generally, if you see 20-30 gas is in the Terran's pocket once the first barracks is finished, you can assume that if the Terran attempts to go for a raven + banshee timing, it will be heavily delayed. This allows you to say "Okay, I know he CAN NOT do that" and your scouting told you just that much. The way you reacted (build order wise) was as if he was doing some sort of tank banshee raven timing as an all-in, which a 3 gate robo isn't the worst way to hold it off... yet certainly not the best.
You chronoboosting was extremely sloppy and because of it, your probes were timed completely off meaning even with the expo your income wouldn't be enough to suffice for the possibility of your all-in push not working out. However, if you DO chronoboost the probes while doing this build, you won't have the collosus / range timed correctly. This is the problem with expanding behind an all-in, is they practically contradict each other.
Good builds allow constant probe production, ability to scout, and the ability to transition from the current strategy, to a next.
Without something like that, you are hopeless in a match up.
Considering you may level higher in play and begin to match up against semi-pros / pros (which I have had very much experience with), I will suggest a few build orders considering it SEEMS like that's what you posted about. As you continue to do this 3 gate 1 robo expo... yet gimmicky push on the side, your 80 percent ratio will begin to fall immensely.
1: 2 Gate Robo FE - Allows a generally well timed expansion, a lot of scouting because of observers, early sentries to hold off aggression, and the ability to go for fast defensive collossi to hold off all-in's or very high amounts of pressure.
2: 3 Gate Expo - Very high amounts of sentries / zealots generally, and allows you to normally hold off attacks and allows you to counter attack afterwards and very much map control. The expo is earlier than the 2 Gate Robo FE, however ability to scout is limited. This build is susceptible to cloak banshee, so make sure you steal the Terran's gas if you do this build, otherwise do a robotics related build order.
3: 1 Gate FE - Normally opened with a 1 stalker 1 zealot poke, expo around 30 food or so, HUGE economy advantage if you can hold off any sort of pressure etc. I would suggest it versus a gas-less expand or a 1 rax expo. (Another build that works if you steal Terran's gas, yet it DOESN'T allow you to pressure, and LIMITS SOME SCOUTING!!!
Okay man... these are my standard openers, however I do have some builds I plan to keep secret and rape with at MLG Raleigh. Going for championship bracket. I wish you luck and hope you get further in skill level as you go down this road of improvement!
- MaDKuDoKu (Andrew Gundlach)
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You're putting down robo before you know anything about what T is doing, and then 2 more gates without seeing anything more. You gear up for this blind 1-base attack at ~11min. If I had to pick a T build that this would work best against, it would be a marine-heavy expand build where the expand gets up and running a few seconds before you attack... which happens to be exactly what T did.
Plus, T was at a disadvantage for a number of reasons, since he brought 4 scvs with his initial push, lost 5 units when making the push, and made medivacs instead of viking or more rax units.
Maybe a 2-rax CC build with more rax added on for marauder afterward (instead of fac/port for med) would be safe vs. your build.
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Modern PvT (MC-Puma for example) seems to be very focused on dropping and the Protoss being able to defend. This old-school opening is great in close spawns and smaller maps, but I can't imagine anyone playing it successfully on maps like Tal'Darim. Of course it's just an opening but it sets you 1 minute behind on additional gates/twilight which could cost you the game in some situations.
You can't basetrade versus a Terran btw
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I win 100% vs terran (high diamond- low master) with 2 gates proxy robo. Even with scout, and 2-3 bunker at ramp, 2-3 immortal and gateway units own terran. You don't need to tech to collosus. The only problem occur is banshee or drop but the timming make your immortal push a little bit faster.
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On July 16 2011 22:21 palanq wrote:
You're putting down robo before you know anything about what T is doing, and then 2 more gates without seeing anything more. You gear up for this blind 1-base attack at ~11min. If I had to pick a T build that this would work best against, it would be a marine-heavy expand build where the expand gets up and running a few seconds before you attack... which happens to be exactly what T did.
Plus, T was at a disadvantage for a number of reasons, since he brought 4 scvs with his initial push, lost 5 units when making the push, and made medivacs instead of viking or more rax units.
Maybe a 2-rax CC build with more rax added on for marauder afterward (instead of fac/port for med) would be safe vs. your build.
I know the guy i faced made alot of mistakes and it was over before i even attacked, but it was the only replay i had. I put a robo down to find out properly what he's doing. And i will have enough time to respond to any airplay, tank rush or thor rush. Immortals are really good vs tanks obviously, and as soon as i scout banshee play i put down stargate, as soon as i see tech lab on factory working i put down a council and get charge. I'd say it's a very stable opener, and i can break his expo if he puts it up too early whatever strat he does. I scout a refinery, which is actually enough to know if i want a robo or not. If he doesn't have a refinery i know he will do mass marine into either some fast exp or some ridicoulus push which is freewin anyway.
Some other guy said that it's not safe for higher level, and that wouldn't surprise me. There gotta be some good counter-strat for terran on maps like XnC. But from what i've seen, it's never been held with some 2 rax CC, ever. Sometime they lift their cc off and back off, sometimes they got 3-4 bunkers which will die either way. Sometimes they add turrets aswell to shoot at colossi.
If they skip startport and go mass marauder, that will be a mistake imo. I go very zealot heavy, and marauders aren't that good vs them. They wont get to my colossi with some decent forcefields, so those will be very safe. Onlything i can think of is skipping medivacs, getting 4 vikings or so by that time, and having several bunkers.
Thanks for all the feedback, eventho many posts are not discussing the topic
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On July 16 2011 22:21 Kudoku wrote:
The game you posted was an example of you doing an all-in VS a Terran who was ready to play a straight up game.
How can I prove this is all in. Generally, if you see 20-30 gas is in the Terran's pocket once the first barracks is finished, you can assume that if the Terran attempts to go for a raven + banshee timing, it will be heavily delayed. This allows you to say "Okay, I know he CAN NOT do that" and your scouting told you just that much. The way you reacted (build order wise) was as if he was doing some sort of tank banshee raven timing as an all-in, which a 3 gate robo isn't the worst way to hold it off... yet certainly not the best.
You chronoboosting was extremely sloppy and because of it, your probes were timed completely off meaning even with the expo your income wouldn't be enough to suffice for the possibility of your all-in push not working out. However, if you DO chronoboost the probes while doing this build, you won't have the collosus / range timed correctly. This is the problem with expanding behind an all-in, is they practically contradict each other.
Good builds allow constant probe production, ability to scout, and the ability to transition from the current strategy, to a next.
Without something like that, you are hopeless in a match up.
Considering you may level higher in play and begin to match up against semi-pros / pros (which I have had very much experience with), I will suggest a few build orders considering it SEEMS like that's what you posted about. As you continue to do this 3 gate 1 robo expo... yet gimmicky push on the side, your 80 percent ratio will begin to fall immensely.
1: 2 Gate Robo FE - Allows a generally well timed expansion, a lot of scouting because of observers, early sentries to hold off aggression, and the ability to go for fast defensive collossi to hold off all-in's or very high amounts of pressure.
2: 3 Gate Expo - Very high amounts of sentries / zealots generally, and allows you to normally hold off attacks and allows you to counter attack afterwards and very much map control. The expo is earlier than the 2 Gate Robo FE, however ability to scout is limited. This build is susceptible to cloak banshee, so make sure you steal the Terran's gas if you do this build, otherwise do a robotics related build order.
3: 1 Gate FE - Normally opened with a 1 stalker 1 zealot poke, expo around 30 food or so, HUGE economy advantage if you can hold off any sort of pressure etc. I would suggest it versus a gas-less expand or a 1 rax expo. (Another build that works if you steal Terran's gas, yet it DOESN'T allow you to pressure, and LIMITS SOME SCOUTING!!!
Okay man... these are my standard openers, however I do have some builds I plan to keep secret and rape with at MLG Raleigh. Going for championship bracket. I wish you luck and hope you get further in skill level as you go down this road of improvement!
- MaDKuDoKu (Andrew Gundlach)
Well thanks for your feedback, although i wouldn't call it a all-in, considering i can always do very heavy damage. He will never be able to keep on mining from his natural. At best he wont lose scv's and will fly his cc to his main again, and not losing too many units while waiting for vikings to chase my colossi away. And by the time he pushes out, my natural is up and running and i will have equal number of workers. If he tries to drop i can scout it (observers remember), and should be able to handle it properly. Lategame pvt is not the topic of this thread so won't go into that.
Point is: I don't consider it an all-in, more-so a punishment for greedy play.
EDIT: And also, i know im far from playing good or perfect, chrono probably sloppy, no real probe-plan and so forth. I could've done a thousand things better, i know that! But i just wanna keep the discussion about the Bo vs Bo, not my level of skill or execution. Thank you either way for posting and helping me on improving!
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all realy "good" terran obv i see allot flaw in their play but they still win play 1 / 1 / 1 or 1 rax expand without gas both is impossible to stop for toss / to get ahead against / to crush it 1 gate robo will work against terrans that still think they are at disadventage mid / lategame .
Also mcs stargate council expo style is extremly greedy and tailored on terran not constantly poking its not solid nor safe he also sometimes dont get a robo early wich cost him the game instantly vs cloak.
I have no solution for PvT that allows me agression or atleast defend that long to get ahead at some points and im not a fan of greedy builds that rely on a sleeping terran.
But yes of course 1 gate robo vs 2 rax is "best" what can happen for you but it still doesnt cost the terran the game nor puts it him behind.
If i talk bullshit enlighten me at wich point you got a realisitc chance vs terran without him doing mistakes , even if you decide to think further and tech more ultimately i faced already terrans who mass bc / tank / viking / turret / ghost toss has no answere in the arsenal for that. all get outmicroed / outmathed in stats all u can hope for realy is a terran playing sloppy that kinda reflects top terran winratio % wich is 80 % ish and they dont play ever top notch in ladder etc meeting them seeing flaws but imagine them not doing a mistake like toss already has to be plyed while being greedy and while relying on terran being less intelligent.
Id love to see a patch :>.
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OP, your dead on with the main point your trying to make: a 2rax pressure opening actually sucks at applying pressure, even against heavy tech builds like 1gate robo or eco builds like 2gate expand. IMO, the standard 2rax pressure build (with tech lab and reactor, concussive, and a push right before or right as warp gate finishes between 5:30 and 6:00) is pretty much dead. For the push to be effective, SCV's almost HAVE to be pulled, and then the build is so all-in your better off just going for a 3-rax.
EDIT: I've been exploring a modified 2rax that's considerably more all-in but also more effective and difficult for a toss to scout, I'll get back to everyone if I have good results
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On July 17 2011 01:07 Skank wrote:OP, your dead on with the main point your trying to make: a 2rax pressure opening actually sucks at applying pressure, even against heavy tech builds like 1gate robo or eco builds like 2gate expand. IMO, the standard 2rax pressure build (with tech lab and reactor, concussive, and a push right before or right as warp gate finishes between 5:30 and 6:00) is pretty much dead. For the push to be effective, SCV's almost HAVE to be pulled, and then the build is so all-in your better off just going for a 3-rax. EDIT: I've been exploring a modified 2rax that's considerably more all-in but also more effective and difficult for a toss to scout, I'll get back to everyone if I have good results
Yeah, you wont get anything out of attacking early on a map with a ramp unless the protoss actually expanded, then some decent pressure can be applied. It felt like my opponent was expecting some kind of fast expansion, since pulling scv's to attack up a ramp can only work if i have no sentrys whatsoever.
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I went from Silver to Diamond using 2 gate robo, but I can't win a game using it anymore. Insanely weak to drops, takes a while to get colossus, Immortals after the 10-12 minute mark are useless and you have late Charge + upgrades.
3 gate robo is the way to go, but you need a fair share of scouting to make sure they dont go cloak banshee, if so forge + cannons at both expo is the safest bet I think, the money is worth it because of the sick econ advantage. Later robo for obs/warp prism(Because of the high gateway count and later storm drop.
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On July 17 2011 01:09 Kammalleri wrote:
I went from Silver to Diamond using 2 gate robo, but I can't win a game using it anymore. Insanely weak to drops, takes a while to get colossus, Immortals after the 10-12 minute mark are useless and you have late Charge + upgrades.
3 gate robo is the way to go, but you need a fair share of scouting to make sure they dont go cloak banshee, if so forge + cannons at both expo is the safest bet I think, the money is worth it because of the sick econ advantage. Later robo for obs/warp prism(Because of the high gateway count and later storm drop.
The point with 1 gate robo into 3 gate is that u can hold every all-in, with decent micro/macro, and you can also punish a terran who takes a greedy expansion. I have yet to play a game where i didn't end up killing a terran who did 2 rax CC before i actually took any advantage of my expansion, but i imagine a terran who gets a few vikings and several bunkers can actually hold it quite well, and vs that i'd have to get an expo up.
Reason i started going this was because i could never hold a 1-2-3 gate expo, with a decent stim timing, if my opponent 1based. So i played around 20-30 games with some terran friends, who beat me all the time if i did my expo before them. After getting to know the matchup better i can't even lose to my friends anymore, and this build is really good at transitioning out of aswell as applying pressure and getting very good scouting information. Most of the cases i don't need to transition out, since i beat them on the spot either way.
At least i beat players who are supposed to be better than me, with about 200 higher rating than me. Whereas i can still lose to zergs who are 400 points below. Points isn't everything, but it's still a indication of skill. So i'd say it's a really strong opener which i've never lost a game with, unless playing really bad.
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The terran player didn't really play the 2rax right I feel. I'm a masters protoss and I also switched to terran, playing exclusively 1400-1700 masters players, and that 2rax wasn't done optimally. He brought 4 scvs, which you really do not need to bring, and his 2nd rax was after his 2nd depot. These tiny things delay the push, and dont give as big as an economic lead. The main point of 2rax is to delay or punish an early 1gate or even 3gate expo. Its primarily aimed to hit the timing of when the nexus is still building. When he tried to break up your ramp and scan, and go around, he lost units as well as mules.
Now with those extra units and mules, he probably would have been able to muster out a larger force when you attacked, but he probably still would not have held, unless he microed really good, or had a flank on the collosus or something like that. Personally, I don't really like this build, as it does count on doing damage, but it will most likely do damage in most cases. It is a bit all in-ish, because if you manage to lose your 2 collosus, and your expo is delayed that much, it probably isnt looking good for you.
The thing is, you went a blind robo. Most people go for blind gateway expands, since it is probably the safest build to go depending on maps. 1gate for larger maps, 3 gate for most other maps. When you went the robo, the only thing you saw was a naked rax and a gas, nothing else, and you dropped the robo based on this. It is probably not the best response to a terran, but it is good for the 2rax vs 3gate robo build order match your looking at. But if the terran were to 1 base all in (and you wouldn't have known because of no scouting) you might not have been able to hold. A 1 base all in from terran can be held with an expansion from protoss, but not always 1 base collosus, of course unless the terran does not micro it right. The PDD and banshee will quickly kill the collosus and 1 base collosus usually does not have that many stalkers.
Basically, your asking if 1gate robo into 3gate robo vs 2rax CC is good, yes it is. But its not good to go every game blind, just based on your scouting of 1 naked rax and 1 gas.
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On July 17 2011 01:24 chaopow wrote:
The terran player didn't really play the 2rax right I feel. I'm a masters protoss and I also switched to terran, playing exclusively 1400-1700 masters players, and that 2rax wasn't done optimally. He brought 4 scvs, which you really do not need to bring, and his 2nd rax was after his 2nd depot. These tiny things delay the push, and dont give as big as an economic lead. The main point of 2rax is to delay or punish an early 1gate or even 3gate expo. Its primarily aimed to hit the timing of when the nexus is still building. When he tried to break up your ramp and scan, and go around, he lost units as well as mules.
Now with those extra units and mules, he probably would have been able to muster out a larger force when you attacked, but he probably still would not have held, unless he microed really good, or had a flank on the collosus or something like that. Personally, I don't really like this build, as it does count on doing damage, but it will most likely do damage in most cases. It is a bit all in-ish, because if you manage to lose your 2 collosus, and your expo is delayed that much, it probably isnt looking good for you.
The thing is, you went a blind robo. Most people go for blind gateway expands, since it is probably the safest build to go depending on maps. 1gate for larger maps, 3 gate for most other maps. When you went the robo, the only thing you saw was a naked rax and a gas, nothing else, and you dropped the robo based on this. It is probably not the best response to a terran, but it is good for the 2rax vs 3gate robo build order match your looking at. But if the terran were to 1 base all in (and you wouldn't have known because of no scouting) you might not have been able to hold. A 1 base all in from terran can be held with an expansion from protoss, but not always 1 base collosus, of course unless the terran does not micro it right. The PDD and banshee will quickly kill the collosus and 1 base collosus usually does not have that many stalkers.
Basically, your asking if 1gate robo into 3gate robo vs 2rax CC is good, yes it is. But its not good to go every game blind, just based on your scouting of 1 naked rax and 1 gas.
Thanks for your post! But i don't think you've read everything. I won't make colossi if i scout a techlab on factory or starport, and i will get to scout what he's doing with my chronoed Observer. He can never break my front on a map with small ramp, ever, with this build. So im safe against any rax push early on. I have lost to 1 all-in which was a tank/marine/banshee push, and he played way better than me so i can't blame him. I know what i could've done differently to win that game. This build is very safe vs all-ins, that also my point. It's a reaction-type build.
If he goes for some funky all-in, i know what units/upgrades to build and how to stop it. I never respond with colossi vs all-ins, ever. Even vs some all-in air build it is safe, since i can pop a stargate and just completely destroy his banshees and raven with phoenixes, and having him with only marines left.
I guess you can call it a blind robo, but i do it so i know exactly what he's doing. I respond with a robo because he grabbed his gas, and he will very likely go 2 rax w techlab/reactor. If he doesn't, ill see what he got when my observer arrives. Everything he does is counterable by the unit composition i can grab, as i can easily just counter all his units!
And yes, i know this replay shows a terran who does alot of mistakes, and i wish i had more, but i didn't save my previous pvt's where they did this strat. Wish i could just play some more terrans who does this so i can post
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On July 16 2011 21:51 Binabik wrote:That's how we used to play PvT 5 months ago, when everybody was thinking that tech is more important than eco. The problem is that drops are going to hurt you really hard and then there's no chance for you to move out until he's already prepared for the colossus. And the build get's destroyed by the 3/1/1 all-in many Terrans are still doing. I'll try it out myself though, I'm a bit higher ranked than you (2000 Masters), I'll post some replays! StarGate Opening is the most awesome thing ever btw
protoss tech > eco
User was warned for this post
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Hi Mellon,
Why I like this opener
This sounds similar to a build I used to do a long time ago and am considering switching back to now. The reason being that i'm sick of not knowing what the Terran is up to and losing to sudden stim timing pushes/banshees/drops/banshee tank marine all-ins.
I know I could scout better without observers, and things like stealing the gas to stop them going banshee sounds really good, but I hate guessing and want a build that I can do every game that's safe against most things, but won't get me too far behind if they do a greedy build.
The way i've been doing it
So i've been doing 10 gas, 13 gate, cyber@100%gate. I then have just enough gas to make warptech, sentry and a robo as soon as my cyber finishes. If I see a 2rax push coming with my scouting probe I can cb out an immortal in time to deal with it, otherwise I can cb out an observer and have it in their base before 6mins, as it travels I build a nexus, if I get there and find some kind of all in then I can cancel the nexus, if I arrive to find a CC building in their base I keep my nexus.
So basically I can hold almost any all in, and I see it coming in good time, and the only way they will be ahead is if they do a greedy 1rax expand or 15CC I think.
Transitioning out
- Tank marine banshee raven all in (which I see a lot recently) cancel nexus, put down 2 extra gates (for 3gates+robo) and mass stalker/zealot/immortal - not sure if this is the best response?
- 1 base stim timing push, cancel nexus, 2 extra gates, sentries, zealots, immortals, start charge and teching towards storm.
- 2 base stim timing with medivacs/drop play, keep nexus, a few immortals, 2 stalkers at each mineral line, tech towards charge+storm
- banshees, keep nexus, make extra observers, 2-4 stalkers at each mineral line
That's most of what I see come out of Terran's at the moment I think, does that sound right to you? Your 1 base collosus timing sounds pretty effective, especially if it hits just before drops (10:30-11:30ish), I don't really like using collosus much though, i'll use them for a late game tech switch in PvT, but much prefer to get heavy forge upgrades and tech towards charge and storm if I can.
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EPT
