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MLG builds to steal PvZ, with some Analysis

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
June 10 2011 00:34 GMT
#1
I guess i should open this by saying that i was making some notes for these games when i thought it would be kind of cool to post what i found onto Team Liquid... Please note that these build orders don't need to be followed to the T and obviously if you don't have the execution to do it then do it in a fashion where you keep your money low (i.e instead of like a 13 gate go 14 or whatever you need to do). I chose these two games because i felt they were really educational and so i go into depth on some of the decisions that the players made (mainly applies to Naniwa vs Moon).

MLG replays to steal PvZ
MC 1 gate expo into 3 gate stargate
▪ expo on 35, or while 3rd sentry is building
▪ Gateway by your low ground pylon (the 30 food one) 35 food
▪ 37 food or after starting your 4th sentry add another gateway totaling 3
▪ 37 food stargate (note slight probe cut)
▪ 42 food or when you have 5 sentries make a forge (4 made 1 warped)
▪ 2 chrono boost on voidray
▪ 53 food or at ~34 probes add 2 extra gas at natural
▪ at around 10 minutes make a robo, assuming that you make 5+ units out of sg to snipe the zerg third base.
Picture of the sim city
[image loading]

Notice the placement of the Gate/pylon/zealot and also the pylon to the south, MC’s sim is an essential part to this build because as you can see he is not vulnerable to anything right now.

This build is a great build because it allows for not only a quicker nexus but also an easy defense from a roach ling all in. This replay demonstrates how well mc’s build is timed out. As you can see the void ray popped right when the roaches got to his base, which is what I call ehon timing. It is important to note that he saved chrono to get the void ray out fast and then rallied to his natural, which shows he knows this timing quite well.
[image loading]

I chose this replay because as I mentioned earlier it allows for you to get a quicker nexus (5:20) and still be safe against timing attacks meant to break your expansion.

For this replay go to http://s3.majorleaguegaming.com/2011-columbus-starcraft2-champ.html# then click losers bracket, then MC vs. wemadefox_Moon while the whole set is good, I really recommend the metalopolis game.


Next up for my builds I stole, I have Naniwa vs. Moon on Shakuras Plateau

I chose this replay because Naniwa not only shows a good opener but he shows the importance of positioning vs. a zerg opponent. While the opener is a standard forge expand Naniwa really shows that he has his building placement and build order down to a T. His forge expand interested me because instead of doing like a 5-7 wg timing or a void ray to kill the third Naniwa opened 4 gate and sold a 6wg all in by moving out on the map. This make Moon react by pumping roaches and lings.

MLG replays to steal PvZ Naniwa’s nexus first into 4wg robo
• 15 nexus
• 15 forge
• 17 gateway
• 18 pylon
• 18 second gateway (cancels when the first gateway finishes, simply used to prevent a ling run by) replaced by a cyber.
• 17-18 gas depending on if your scouting probe dies or not
• 23-24 second gas
• When core finishes start warp gate research before sentry, start sentry when you have your next 100 gas (between 31-33 supply)
• ~35 supply drop gates 2, 3 and 4
• you should be able to make 3 sentries before wg finishes.
• Here Naniwa kills his forge and remakes it and starts a robo and +1 when the forge finishes, ultimately this is where I stop doing this by food because it is really dumb… (to go by food because obviously every player has their own style). Just keep in mind that you want to get a relatively fast robo (Naniwa gets it around 8:25 ish in this game).

Basically from here Naniwa plays standard but there are some really keynotes of brilliance in this game.

[image loading]
Yes while this may be standard I think it can serve to be beneficial for people looking to refine their building placement.
[image loading]

Do you see what Moon sees; yes gateways finishing. This should lead Moon to become suspicious because he does not know if there are any more gateways, so what does Naniwa do… He sells it, and he does it so well.
[image loading]
Look at how smart Naniwa is, him pulling the probe and the units moving out really sells a 6wg timing, and if you look at the production tab he is really forcing a response. Without the probe it would look as if he was just trying to secure map control, but in most circumstances the probe signifies a warp gate all in. Very well done Naniwa =D.

[image loading]
Naniwa’s perfect observer positioning lets him get set up to fight in an area where he can get the positional advantage.
[image loading]

This is just the positioning Naniwa needed as you can see he cuts off the roaches and takes care of the banelings. This is important because it shows how big of a role positioning plays on major battles. Not only positioning but also how he uses the information in the picture with the observer to choose a location in which to engage without losing. Naniwa never ceases to amaze.

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]




These pictures all happen at around the same time (17:31). Basically it shows Naniwa not only denying an expansion of zerg, and taking map control but expanding as well. Naniwa’s excellent obs positioning allows him to do this poke because he knows that if the zerg is to attack into his excellent positioning he is fine and he also knows that the zerg will not counter attack. But to be honest that expansion kill is simply a bonus, what he was trying to do was gain map control so he can take his 4th with out any real risk.

[image loading]
This scene right here is what made me do this replay in the first place. It starts off with Naniwa poking through by the watch tower and ultimately denying the zergs expansion, but then when he engages he uses the choke and force fields to his advantage. It really is a great move by Naniwa, while even though he really doesn’t have the best arch and the colossi are taking heavy fire he still managed to isolate around 30-40% of the zergs roaches. Without those force fields this fight would have been extremely different.

[image loading]
[image loading]


Through out that whole battle Naniwa was not focusing corrupters, and it is now clear why. By not focusing corrupters Naniwa has left Moon with 20 useless supply in corrupters when Naniwa is deciding to make a tech switch into templar immortal. This is “bad news bears” for Moon who is already behind in supply so surely 20 useless supply won’t help him.

[image loading]

They engage once again but this time Moon decides to attack off creep with hydras and some ovys with banes. He ends up losing most of his corrupters so Naniwa responds by building 2 colossi. Naniwa knows that Moon sees that he has no colossi so it is very unlikely that he will re max with corrupters so Naniwa does an intelligent play by making 2 colossi.

[image loading]

Naniwa kills Moon’s expo uncontested…. That really hurts, essentially Naniwa has taken position at this base and unless Moon wants to get stormed to death he won’t walk down that choke.

[image loading]

Where once a zerg army stood. Naniwa played exceptionally well and ends up winning the game shortly after this play.
To find this replay go to http://s3.majorleaguegaming.com/2011-columbus-starcraft2-champ.html# then click on the Naniwa Moon section and it is the game on Shakuras.

I hope you enjoyed this blog, i am considering doing one for pvt matches from MLG. In particular i was thinking about Tyler's 1-1 6 gate and Maybe some of Naniwa's or MC's games. Please note that this was just me taking notes and then thinking hey i could post this on Team Liquid, but either way i hope you enjoyed it. =D
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
MaestroSC
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2073 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-10 00:42:25
June 10 2011 00:40 GMT
#2
Ive stolen the 1gate expand build and its actually pretty solid and not nearly as dangerous as i thought it would be... im not sure how or why it works but it seems to be working atm.. the only thing im worried about is a mass ling build or something like that and he just completely will not let u get ur nexus down off 1 gate...

but with sooooooo many people doing that roach ling all in/heavy aggression into taking 3rd base this build kinda hardcounters it imo and since thats 90% of my ladder games.. its workin wonders
preCurser
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States78 Posts
June 10 2011 00:40 GMT
#3
Well done, I say that and I'm a fucking zerg player.

God help us all...
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
June 10 2011 00:58 GMT
#4
Nice write-up. Would it be okay for me to put this in the strategy forum?
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
June 10 2011 00:59 GMT
#5
On June 10 2011 09:58 iamke55 wrote:
Nice write-up. Would it be okay for me to put this in the strategy forum?

sure i don't see why not, i was thinking about posting it there but i was unsure if it had enough content.
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
June 10 2011 01:01 GMT
#6
Okay thanks, awesome posts like this are exactly what the strategy forum needs!
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
garlicface
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada4196 Posts
June 10 2011 01:02 GMT
#7
On June 10 2011 09:59 Yamulo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2011 09:58 iamke55 wrote:
Nice write-up. Would it be okay for me to put this in the strategy forum?

sure i don't see why not, i was thinking about posting it there but i was unsure if it had enough content.

haha it's DEFINITELY enough content. Nice job.
#TeamBuLba
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
June 10 2011 01:03 GMT
#8
On June 10 2011 10:01 iamke55 wrote:
Okay thanks, awesome posts like this are exactly what the strategy forum needs!

thanks
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
edc
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States666 Posts
June 10 2011 01:08 GMT
#9
You really should analyze more replays, as this is a great read. I recommend the MC vs. IdrA games in MLG Columbus Day 1.
“There are two kinds of people in this world, those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.” - Clint Eastwood
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
June 10 2011 01:09 GMT
#10
Haha, you make a post that takes up 9/10ths of my page and has awesome pictures and detailed BOs, and you're not sure it's enough content? You have HIGH standards.

Anyway, thanks a ton for this. Really helps out - I saw a ton of PvT strategy posts, but it seemed that PvZ strat posts were lacking. Very helpful!
SkaPunk
Profile Joined October 2010
United States471 Posts
June 10 2011 01:11 GMT
#11
Dude, you are fucking awesome. Please analyze more. Or set up a stream where you do protoss only analysis. It'll help out our race greatly.
Team Fallacy
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
June 10 2011 01:11 GMT
#12
On June 10 2011 10:09 HolyArrow wrote:
Haha, you make a post that takes up 9/10ths of my page and has awesome pictures and detailed BOs, and you're not sure it's enough content? You have HIGH standards.

Anyway, thanks a ton for this. Really helps out - I saw a ton of PvT strategy posts, but it seemed that PvZ strat posts were lacking. Very helpful!

That is nothing, it was 10 pages on word before i copied it over... But thank you =D
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
Gradius
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States112 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-10 01:14:41
June 10 2011 01:14 GMT
#13
Great post. I copied MC's 1-gate earlier but lost horribly to zergling rushes and 3rr. As a ladder build it's just not safe enough IMO.

The nexus first build seems to be quite map situational. On Shakuras it's just so easy to forge FE, and I believe he put the nexus down first because he didn't scout an early pool. The info on positioning & building placement is key though.
StarCraft: Subjection: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=410514
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-10 01:24:16
June 10 2011 01:17 GMT
#14
On June 10 2011 10:14 Gradius wrote:
Great post. I copied MC's 1-gate earlier but lost horribly to zergling rushes and 3rr. As a ladder build it's just not safe enough IMO.

The nexus first build seems to be quite map situational. On Shakuras it's just so easy to forge FE, and I believe he put the nexus down first because he didn't scout an early pool. The info on positioning & building placement is key though.

The important thing with both builds is relying on information you gather, so obviously both builds are situational but as shown in both replays both naniwa and MC had great scouting so it wasn't a problem. Also if you have the tower and you see the stream of lings you can just cut your losses and cancel your nexus and play from about even footing. Naniwa also did a build similar to this vs losira on Test Bug and held with ease vs a large number of zerglings.
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
soullogik
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1171 Posts
June 10 2011 01:22 GMT
#15
sweet thread bro.

pvz is such a mess these days.

need more posts like this
young ho
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
June 10 2011 01:43 GMT
#16
On June 10 2011 10:08 edc.initiative wrote:
You really should analyze more replays, as this is a great read. I recommend the MC vs. IdrA games in MLG Columbus Day 1.

I will add that, i think game 1 is probably the more interesting of the 2. Also, thank you for your kind words.
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
spacek
Profile Joined June 2010
United States213 Posts
June 10 2011 01:43 GMT
#17
this is amazing, i hope you live a happy life sir
yaya
DropTester
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia608 Posts
June 10 2011 01:51 GMT
#18
this is really helpful, I didn't manage to catch many, if any of the games at all during mlg. Saves abit of time knowing which replays to go through, given that there seems to be hundreds. really nice notes.
I hope you keep it up, my PvZ really needs alot of help
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
June 10 2011 01:57 GMT
#19
On June 10 2011 10:43 spacek wrote:
this is amazing, i hope you live a happy life sir

thanks, i am planning on maybe doing something like this weekly or something. And i already have some more replays in mind so i will see how it goes.
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
EliteReplay
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Dominican Republic913 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-10 02:19:57
June 10 2011 02:18 GMT
#20
On June 10 2011 10:14 Gradius wrote:
Great post. I copied MC's 1-gate earlier but lost horribly to zergling rushes and 3rr. As a ladder build it's just not safe enough IMO.

The nexus first build seems to be quite map situational. On Shakuras it's just so easy to forge FE, and I believe he put the nexus down first because he didn't scout an early pool. The info on positioning & building placement is key though.


u have to gather information, if the zergs opens speedlings, u cant do this build
but if see the zerg doing 14-15hatch or gasless expo, u can do this build.
reason behind this is due to fact that MC, pressure the zerg with his Initial Stalker and buy time to get the expo up and wall off and since there wont be any speed done u can get away with it.
if play random i can't call any race imba?
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