|
Russian Federation88 Posts
Everyone knows that in teamgames you can share resources. But I didn't see strategies based on this ability. I've took pretty simple idea:
- one player builds productions. Protoss is ideal for this role because this race can convert money to units very quickly with warpgates.
- another simply pumps up economy to give resources at 5 minutes.
With help of SCFusion I've created a couple of builds targeted to 5 minutes mark (below).
Short video about:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GzzLc.png)
We've won about 80% of games with this build (gold league). As we didn't play a whole bulk of games so I cannot talk about best maps, good transitions out of it, modifications. I'll definitely add them so this topic can be [G].
Strengths of strategy:
- pretty weird timing - first wave comes at 5:10-5:15;
- good economy after - one player has a weak economy but another one is super fine. Usually you'll end up "debut" with 3 again 2 bases;
- good amount of units - you'll warp from 6 gates and at time of 4 wg rush you'll have 12 units against 8-10 if you playing vPP.
Some execution notes:
- your teammate should constantly scout and make sure that opponents do not rush;
- share control. It’s good for any other game and especially for this strategy: only one player has got army;
- add centries to army mix to separate armies of opponents.
Build orders:
+ Show Spoiler [Protoss agression] +
0:02 6/10S - Build Probe
0:19 7/10S - Build Probe
0:36 8/10S - Build Probe
0:44 9/10S - Build Pylon
1:10 9/18S - Build Gateway
1:18 9/18S - Build Probe
1:35 10/18S - Build Probe
1:52 11/18S - Build Probe
1:52 12/18S - Build Assimilator
2:09 12/18S - Build Probe
2:15 13/18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:23 13/18S - Move 2 Probes To Gas
3:05 13/18S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:05 13/18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:05 13/18S - Move Probe To Minerals
3:05 13/18S - Move Probe To Minerals
3:25 13/18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:45 13/18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:47 13/18S - Build 5 Gateways
3:50 13/18S - Move 3 Probes To Gas
3:58 13/18S - Build Probe
4:05 14/18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:15 14/18S - Build Probe
4:19 15/18S - Build Pylon
4:25 15/18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:32 15/18S - Build Probe
4:45 16/26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:52 16/26S - Convert Gateways To Warp Gate
+ Show Spoiler [Zerg agression] +
0:02 6/10 - Build Drone
0:13 7/10 - Build Drone
0:24 8/10 - Build Drone
0:34 9/10 - Build Drone
0:47 10/10 - Extractor Trick Drone
1:00 11/10 - Build Overlord
1:25 11/18 - Build Drone
1:33 12/18 - Build Spawning Pool
1:40 11/18 - Build Drone
1:47 12/18 - Build Drone
1:53 13/18 - Build Drone
2:26 14/18 - Build Hatchery
2:44 13/18 - Build Queen
3:16 15/18 - Build Hatchery
3:22 14/18 - Build Drone
3:29 15/18 - Build Drone
3:46 16/18 - Build Queen
3:56 18/18 - Build Overlord
3:56 18/18 - Queen Spawn Larvae
4:18 18/20 - Queen Spawn Larvae
4:18 18/20 - Build Overlord
Replays:
Khaydarin Depths PZvPT, Protoss is agressor
Khaydarin Depths PZvTZ, Zerg is agressor
Discord IV PZvPZ, Protoss is agressor
Original article (usually I update TL thread more often than it ^_^)
|
Anything above gold league and you'd almost certainly die before the 5 minute mark came around, so you'd have one guy sat on a few thousand minerals whilst watching your bases die.
|
You're basically dead to any form of early aggression. As abaitor said this won't work above gold league. As well as this, winning 4/5 games at gold league isn't a large sample of evidence, and the fact that you only won 80% of games in that small sample size really says something about the strategy.
Now that I read through the zerg buildorder you posted I can't help but laugh. The best part is the 12p 14h 15h. I think this would be a very powerful zerg buildorder in BGH 15 mins no-rush.
|
Russian Federation88 Posts
On June 04 2011 21:34 aztecx wrote:
You're basically dead to any form of early aggression
that's why you should scout hard and throw away this if opposite team rush you.
On June 04 2011 21:34 aztecx wrote:
Now that I read through the zerg buildorder you posted I can't help but laugh. The best part is the 12p 14h 15h. I think this would be a very powerful zerg buildorder in BGH 15 mins no-rush.
There is a pretty big difference between 5 and 15 minutes.
From my experience of 2v2 games: not so many players take 2 zealots and 2 stalkers and go to do some attack as they can meet bunch of speedlings.
|
On June 04 2011 21:21 abaitor wrote:
Anything above gold league and you'd almost certainly die before the 5 minute mark came around, so you'd have one guy sat on a few thousand minerals whilst watching your bases die.
I have messed around with money dumping strategies like the one mentioned in the op in diamond league and we have held many rushes, it just takes some scouting. Me and my friend starting doing these strats after watching Day[9] Daily #296 - 2v2 Week: Money Dumping.
There are quite a lot of strategies you can do and I havn't really fleshed them out but basically for the money dumper I have several openners. For a terran money dumper you can 2rax fe or 1rax fe to give mass minerals to your partner. This is good for mass t1 aggression like crazy mass marines. Tech heavy opennings are more fun in my opinion and to do that a terran money dumper can go pretty much a 1rax or 2rax fe but with double gas fast and you dump all your money at 5minutes. From this you can do a very quick mass tech attack like mass air or mass mech really fast with TT. The 1rax versions are a lot more risky but pretty safe on maps with a shared choke where you can turtle easily with double T.
I think Day[9] explains it better but money dumping strats can be done in 2v2 and there is a lot of potential strategies you can do.
|
On June 04 2011 23:18 ru.meta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 21:34 aztecx wrote:
You're basically dead to any form of early aggression
that's why you should scout hard and throw away this if opposite team rush you. Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 21:34 aztecx wrote:
Now that I read through the zerg buildorder you posted I can't help but laugh. The best part is the 12p 14h 15h. I think this would be a very powerful zerg buildorder in BGH 15 mins no-rush. There is a pretty big difference between 5 and 15 minutes. From my experience of 2v2 games: not so many players take 2 zealots and 2 stalkers and go to do some attack as they can meet bunch of speedlings.
As the other guy said, any team against gold league will stomp this build with scouting and early pressure. How can you afford any early lings to defend pressure when you have 12~ drones and have just started building a second hatchery?
On June 05 2011 00:19 Devlawl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 21:21 abaitor wrote:
Anything above gold league and you'd almost certainly die before the 5 minute mark came around, so you'd have one guy sat on a few thousand minerals whilst watching your bases die. I have messed around with money dumping strategies like the one mentioned in the op in diamond league and we have held many rushes, it just takes some scouting. Me and my friend starting doing these strats after watching Day[9] Daily #296 - 2v2 Week: Money Dumping. There are quite a lot of strategies you can do and I havn't really fleshed them out but basically for the money dumper I have several openners. For a terran money dumper you can 2rax fe or 1rax fe to give mass minerals to your partner. This is good for mass t1 aggression like crazy mass marines. Tech heavy opennings are more fun in my opinion and to do that a terran money dumper can go pretty much a 1rax or 2rax fe but with double gas fast and you dump all your money at 5minutes. From this you can do a very quick mass tech attack like mass air or mass mech really fast with TT. The 1rax versions are a lot more risky but pretty safe on maps with a shared choke where you can turtle easily with double T. I think Day[9] explains it better but money dumping strats can be done in 2v2 and there is a lot of potential strategies you can do.
One of the top 3 2v2 AT teams on SEA uses mineral dumping in a few of their strategies. The difference is they use a huge amount of static defense to protect from any form of early pressure. As well as this, I'll tell you that Terran is far more efficient for the role of 'harvester' because they are able to put up static defense for effectively much less minerals (bunkers are salvageable).
Mineral dumping is a very viable concept but OP's buildorders and overall strategy have fundamental flaws.
|
There are lots of possibilities here.
I tried it once with a friend playing zerg.
I went two early assimilator and zealot/cannon defencemode
fed him all the gas when his spire popped, wayyyy more mutas than should have been on the field at that point =D
|
I think these strategies have a lot of merit if well thought out. We had it done to us with terrran / toss opponents and I think the best chance of rolling it is with very early aggression. After that it snowballs on your very quickly.
The point about static defenses seems pretty valid to me. If you took a terran / toss team with just 2 cannons / 1 bunker then that is usually enough to deter or fend off the trickle that can come before 5 minutes.
I think your strategies could use some more work but I love the idea. Don't let the detractors put you off from trying something off the straight and narrow.
|
Russian Federation88 Posts
On June 05 2011 00:19 Devlawl wrote:
I think Day[9] explains it better but money dumping strats can be done in 2v2 and there is a lot of potential strategies you can do.
Yea, I think that first time I've see money damp at day[9] show. But I think that we can find some cool and reliable "dump-openings".
As for "it's for gold league" - I do not believe that mechanics that works good in gold will stop eventually in master. Probably it'll be more sophisticated/not so hardcore.
|
A ZP shared resources build similar to this is viable up to diamond level. I used it more before the warpgate nerf, because with a 10 gate and chrono you could actually have warpgate done at 5:00, with 6+ gateways finished, making the rush really brutal. It is still viable since the nerf, but hits later and requires you to build more units pre-warpgate instead of going all in at 5:00.
The main complain people have stated above is correct: with no early units, you will lose to a rush.
In the proper build, the zerg player should be getting fast speedlings. We use a 10 pool, 6 ling harass for early map control, then he gets fast speed, drones up to about 20, and pumps lings after he's saturated. The lings help to put the enemy in a defensive posture and allow the protoss to plant proxy pylons aggressively without fear of them being picked off. Even with a decent ling force, there should be enough excess resources to help fund 6-8 gateways.
This strategy is best vs PP and PT, as they are the most passive and immobile. If you can get a proxy pylon+overlord to warp directly into a protoss base before their warpgate finishes, it will usually end the game. I do NOT recommend this strat vs double zerg, unless your zerg player is good at early game baneling micro.
I can provide some plat/diamond replays for anyone who is interested in seeing the strat in action.
Shared resource builds are definitely underused in team games, and I think we will see a lot of development in this area in the future.
GLHF!
|
I remember the European VS America showmatches HD and husky casted together, I think the european team did this, Jinro and TLO?
|
Completely viable more so on shared maps. If it's individual ramp, still doable with forge or Bunker in the beginning. Usually go for fast mass mutas or something. Don't doubt because he is gold. 2v2 masters
|
You're not killing the scouts... Scouting probes gets to see your 6 wg and can easily react. If your opponents went for 10 pool, they just have to rally lings to your base at 4:30 and win. If they went for 14 pool, they can still hit a timing like 5:00 in your base with lings. Terran ally just has to bunker up or if protoss, get units out of 3 gates and stall for time.
I don't see this working at all at high levels. since you are winning 80% of your games, you should reach masters soon and prove me wrong though 
The ressource sharing idea though has some potential I think. As said before Day[9] has decent success and TLO did some nice usage of this strat in EU vs USA 2v2. Maybe a version of your strat a little less all-in with more map control could work ?
I posted a PZ build with gaz sharing into aggression and DT rush a while ago that works at high master, so I think there are definitely some interesting things to do with ressource sharing.
|
Russian Federation88 Posts
On June 05 2011 22:41 Geiko wrote:You're not killing the scouts... Scouting probes gets to see your 6 wg and can easily react. If your opponents went for 10 pool, they just have to rally lings to your base at 4:30 and win. If they went for 14 pool, they can still hit a timing like 5:00 in your base with lings. Terran ally just has to bunker up or if protoss, get units out of 3 gates and stall for time. I don't see this working at all at high levels. since you are winning 80% of your games, you should reach masters soon and prove me wrong though The ressource sharing idea though has some potential I think. As said before Day[9] has decent success and TLO did some nice usage of this strat in EU vs USA 2v2. Maybe a version of your strat a little less all-in with more map control could work ? I posted a PZ build with gaz sharing into aggression and DT rush a while ago that works at high master, so I think there are definitely some interesting things to do with ressource sharing.
Yea, I believe that thi build is viable with some modifications. As for proof by hit master league - I'll try to ^_^
|
On June 05 2011 22:41 Geiko wrote:You're not killing the scouts... Scouting probes gets to see your 6 wg and can easily react. If your opponents went for 10 pool, they just have to rally lings to your base at 4:30 and win. If they went for 14 pool, they can still hit a timing like 5:00 in your base with lings. Terran ally just has to bunker up or if protoss, get units out of 3 gates and stall for time. I don't see this working at all at high levels. since you are winning 80% of your games, you should reach masters soon and prove me wrong though The ressource sharing idea though has some potential I think. As said before Day[9] has decent success and TLO did some nice usage of this strat in EU vs USA 2v2. Maybe a version of your strat a little less all-in with more map control could work ? I posted a PZ build with gaz sharing into aggression and DT rush a while ago that works at high master, so I think there are definitely some interesting things to do with ressource sharing.
Yeah Geiko the build I use is similar to your "unbeatable" 2v2 cheese but adds in resource sharing and more gas so the toss can get stalkers/sentries. Stalkers are a huge help in DPS and chasing down kiting units, and having a sentry inside their base to FF their ramp agains their ally is ** awesome =D
Definitely get lings early to kill scouts and control the map, and this build works great.
|
LOL Geiko I just read your unbeatable no2 and we also do the DT transition. Funny that our builds evolved in the same way independently. I wasn't going to bring it up cuz I didn't want too many people using it on me now that I try to play more macro games =D
With the resource sharing it's even more brutal. You can afford to drop the twilight council and dark shrine really fast by getting gas from the zerg, and are warping in off 6 gates instead of 4.
|
Oh yeah, the final cheesy aspect to this build is that it only requires 1 player to be very good. The zerg player really just needs to know how to execute a pretty simple ling rush and dump funds. For instance, the player I started using this build with was bronze at the time, and we played in high plat. If the zerg player is good and can help with micro, expect even better results.
|
there is also an option to do this earlier than 5min:
one player just builds workers (and maybe take gas) and then leaves. then all his resources will go straight to the other guy, resulting in shared resources (and control) before 5min
|
On June 06 2011 06:37 tomnov wrote:
there is also an option to do this earlier than 5min:
one player just builds workers (and maybe take gas) and then leaves. then all his resources will go straight to the other guy, resulting in shared resources (and control) before 5min
Which leaves one guy to micro and micro versus 2. Hardly an ideal situation.
|
well yeah but it's pretty easy to build pure drones and do a 10-gate without expanding =p
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
