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On June 03 2011 02:03 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 01:32 NB wrote:
i have a practice partner who used this build a lots of time. The fact that you only has 1 chrono boost on your probes make you always behind in probes counts as well as you cut probe at 20. Any sign of high chrono count in PvP would result 1 side get more than 1 sentry to solve the problem. In fact with the sentries build time buff and pylon range nerf, i could open 1 gate robo with 2 gases and hold your build just fine as long as there is a ramp and its not close spawn. You will always behind in 5-8 probes once your pressure stop and it is huge entering mid game.
Also a dis advantage by applying early pressure early on in PvP is that you always miss scouting proxy pylon. In this case when you cut probe at 20, you cant afford any probe scout mid game either. I also forgot to mention the 2 gate block at ramp which delay any sort of stalker rush forever.
In conclusion, it is TRUE that the 4 gate timing still can be revoke post patch but we already held it just fine pre patch. Doing it now, post patch, with the pylon nerf and sentries buff, just is as risky as 2 gates proxy: if he doesnt scout+react to it he die.
Btw: only 1 chrono on probe is WAY behind since most people spend like 3 now and still safe. The reason you wont be behind on probe count is because you should continue probe production while attacking. I know this sounds wild, but having only 3 gates, you can easily have continuous probe production, get a second assimilator up, and still continuously warp in units. In one of the replay, a 1100 master player gets sentries and even 2 canons at his ramp..he still did manage to stop the initial push. You can not open onegate robo and think you'll be safe against this. You mention close position, which makes me think you haven't even read the build. You will be warping in all your units, distance does not matter.
you are talking about do you want 2 probes advance at 1 minutes mark or EVEN probe at 6 minutes mark. The profit of 1 or 2 workers advance INCREASE over time and this apply to and sort of RTS.
I did read the build and i hope you knwo the different between close and far spawn in PvP. Its about the timing of the initial units moving out as well as possible hidden pylon location. Close spawn limit a lots of your option makes offensive play styles much better than defensive.
Far spawn on the other hand, make rushes fail harder than ever. I could pump out mass sentries to held the ramp while wrapping in at a proxy pylon you didnt check when you execute the "pressure".
I do understand that 3 gate production WILL give you room to pump probes after the 1st wrap round but again, at that time you are already 4-5 probes behind with no intel advantage WHILE exposing your army composition to the enemy. It is not a straight up lose but if your pressure deal no damage like that, the rest of the game you basicly fight an up hill battle, the same way 1 gate proxy works on xelnaga.
Again: im not saying its an impossible build. It will work at some extend but with proper counter, any sort of rush/probe cut will be punished.
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an early gate, only 1 gas + putting only 2 probes, and hoarding chronoboost pretty much broadcasts your intent. I'd think it was some kind of low eco fast warpgate rush or k4g upon seeing something like this which is what it basically is. After that it's only a matter of adjusting my build to hold off your aggression without cutting probes and the game would be pretty much over
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On June 03 2011 02:52 MARISA wrote:
an early gate, only 1 gas + putting only 2 probes, and hoarding chronoboost pretty much broadcasts your intent. I'd think it was some kind of low eco fast warpgate rush or k4g upon seeing something like this which is what it basically is. After that it's only a matter of adjusting my build to hold off your aggression without cutting probes and the game would be pretty much over
And yet, people still lose to it 
Most of the answers in this thread is theorycrafting. I implore you, go try the build before you think its bad. I can promise you it will surprise you in its efficiency. I too was very skeptic before trying the build. At first glance you'd think it would be easily defendable and leaves you with less resources, probes and tech than your opponent. That is, however, not the case at all 
Most, if not all, of my losses with this build has been cases of "I should improve in this area", and not "I can't ever win in this situation".
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Most onegate robo builds gets a straight up buildorder loss vs this one. You need something like 12 sentries to be able to continuously forcefield the ramp so you can't warp above it with a pylon.
With that said, I haven't specifically tested it vs the build you posted. I will try it tomorrow and update you on how it goes
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It seems like this build puts you all-in against every other common protoss build, all of the adaptions are "do a lot of damage or you're far behind."
To me this isn't a pressure build at all, just a rework of the old 4gate push sacrificing even more economy with only 1 chrono on nexus and 11gate with probe cuts later
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yeah, this is the build i mentioned in previous post.
Tyler and day9 tested this vs 4 gates prepatch and they got alots of success. (watch Tyler stream)
Basically skip wrap to get gas for immo right away and only start wrap tech when needed. This build is designed to held off anysort of 1 base rush but bad vs expand and tech :-/... If you see lots of chrono saved, this is not a bad choice
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still lose to 2 gate fast wg...what are the exact timings by the way? for the units to pop
the replays are the latest patch right?
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I am excited to try this out.
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I used a very similar build right before the patch, and it was insanely strong. Because of the 11 gate and earlier warpgate, you can be aggressive so that either your opponent has to cut probes to defend, or you can just do a lot of damage early on if they play greedy. Then because you continue to make probes, you actually catch up and surpass your opponent in economy even though earlier on you had to sacrifice a bit of economy.
However, with the patch, I've found that this build is much more weaker. Players can be much more greedy while still being safe against your initial attack/poke, since warpgate timing is slower plus sentry building time is faster.
It's still a good build, but now I rarely use it. A few seconds does make a world of difference in this build, and the patch killed those few seconds of advantage you get.
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Sure, I've seen this before. This build is essentially a faster 4wg attack with -1Gate -1probe -1unit.
The main thing holding you back is wg timing, so 10gate may be better.
From reps it looks like you are often getting delayed timings, which can easily end badly since that very slight timing window is the whole reason for this builds existence.
Slightly worse due to patch, now have to only spend 1cb on nexus, sentry play slightly better vs it.
Decent build to pull out occasionally, but would not recommend it as someones standard play.
Edit- Tested 11gate and it looks like it can get timings 5stalk/1z <5:30 so it seems fine instead of 10gate.
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EPT
