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BO
14 Pool and rally the 14th drone to the enemy base to scout.
15 Gas (drones on gas asap)
15 Overlord
15 Four lings and queen as soon as pool finishes. Send lings to scout.
19 Roach warren
19 Overlord
21 Four roaches
31 Expo (pump drones and roaches at your discretion at this point)
30 Overlord
35 Evo chamber
~38 Queen at main and transfer old queen to expo
~40 Missile attacks level 1
Transfer excess drones at hatchery completion
~43 Get a second gas gyser (put only 1 drones on it, more if needed)
~46 Metabolic boost
EDIT: Nerchio himself has stated his opinions on the style in the comments below.
From here on, get a decent saturation at your expo. A Destiny style +1 roach ling all-in is very easy to do at this point. Larva production is very high, so the 35 lings in the screenshot could have easily been a large amount of drones. The build transitions easily into standard 2 base infestor roach.
From what I can see, this build is safe to EVERYTHING in the zerg verses zerg match-up and is very easy to do for lower level players. Any player below grandmasters should be able to safely outplay their opponent.
The Destiny style roach speedling all-in can be easily countered by getting a baneling nest around the time of the metabolic boost. One can tell the opponent is going for the Destiny build by seeing the spine crawler in the mineral line with the first four zerglings. While very similar to the Destiny roach ling all-in, this build has two gasses, has upgrades, and is slightly slower, improving economy.
This is my first of many guides that I plan to do. Many thanks to Nerchio!
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Nice! I hope this thread turns out better than the "[D] Zerg equivalent to a 4-Gate"-thread.
I think this is stronger than the destiny variation as the +1 roaches eat lings and almost nullifies a speedling counter, plus it's not as much of an all-in.
I'll quote my post from the other thread:
Nerchio did a similar (but a little later with a little more eco, 28 drones) build vs morrow in the Dailymotion Cup Grand Finals. Nerchio opened 14p into 4 lings and he moved out at 8:43 with 12 roaches. When he arrived @9:25 he had 12 roaches with +1 attack and 20 speedlings, with an additional 1 roach and 12 lings reinforcing and another 12 lings just about to hatch. It was a really nice timed attack with impeccable execution. Here is the rep: http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/dailymotion/playoffs/download/25462676/
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Btw, this isn't a speedling expand. It is a semi all-in timing attack. It opens up roach expand, the ling speed is the last thing you build.
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On June 01 2011 08:03 VoirDire wrote:
Btw, this isn't a speedling expand. It is a semi all-in timing attack. It opens up roach expand, the ling speed is the last thing you build.
While it ended up all-in in the replay, speedlings and +1 roaches are very usefull in the mid to late game, and a player can easily drone up instead of going all-in. Even after going all-in, there is a great eco to back it up, so even masters players can back off and still have a ton of useful units.
If the enemy is going heavy ling baneling ---> all in.
If the opponent is going heavy eco ---> all in.
If the opponent is going roaches and has either 1 base or 2 bases with low saturation ---> drone up, get four gasses, get lair and +1 carapace. Roach pushes aren't a danger to this build, especially if one wants to be safe with a spine crawler.
I do somewhat agree that it isn't a speedling expand, and more of a style.
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On June 01 2011 08:11 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 08:03 VoirDire wrote:
Btw, this isn't a speedling expand. It is a semi all-in timing attack. It opens up roach expand, the ling speed is the last thing you build. While it ended up all-in in the replay, speedlings and +1 roaches are very usefull in the mid to late game, and a player can easily drone up instead of going all-in. If the enemy is going heavy ling baneling --> all in. If the opponent is going heavy eco ---> all in. If the opponent is going roaches and has either 1 base or 2 bases with low saturation ---> drone up, get four gasses, get lair and +1 carapace. Roach pushes aren't a danger to this build, especially if one wants to be safe with a spine crawler.
The build clearly builds up to that one timing attack from the start.
Notice how ling speed and +1 finishes just when he gets to the opponents base. Notice how he stops building drones after 28 and barely has enough money to sustain constant ling production. Notice how he has 3 roaches on his ramp all the time to deny scouting of the lings building up in his base.
As he didn't have speedlings, he couldn't even scout the defenses before the attack. He had no idea at all what his opponent was doing. The opponent might even have canceled his expand and gone for 1 base muta for all he know. He had to make that attack. It was borderline all in.
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He makes a good point, you're sacrificing all scouting info until lair tech. Plus a build that opens with roaches for defense completely sacrifices all forms off early aggression meaning your opponent can drone as hard (harder than you can) as he wants until you have enough units to stop him from destroying your nat. It then splits your forces and makes your initial timing push weak.
I honestly think you need to add banes to this build, otherwise you're relying on your opponent to not be confident with his micro and take the gentlemens agreement to build just roaches.
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On June 01 2011 08:55 Griefer wrote:I honestly think you need to add banes to this build, otherwise you're relying on your opponent to not be confident with his micro and take the gentlemens agreement to build just roaches.
Roaches with +1 attack demolishes lings as they die of just 2 shots (instead of 3 shots with unupgraded roaches). Mass ling isn't that much of a problem.
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Hmm, so under weaknesses we can put fake expo into 1 base muta, and really good drone timing with a hatch first and speedlings. The drone timing would have to be really good to have a better eco and army if the user of this build decides to go all-in.
EDIT: Wouldn't 1 base muta just die to any type of roach ling timing even if the mutas pop before the roaches move out?
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1 base muta was just an extreme example of a zerg build I used to illustrate the point that he had no scouting information until he attacked.
Let's say instead that his opponent recognized the timing and had something like a few roaches, 5 spine crawlers and a couple of banelings in preparation for the attack. His timing would have been nullified and he would have been to far behind in eco to ever catch up in eco with that level of opponent.
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On June 01 2011 09:13 VoirDire wrote:
1 base muta was just an extreme example of a zerg build I used to illustrate the point that he had no scouting information until he attacked.
Let's say instead that his opponent recognized the timing and had something like a few roaches, 5 spine crawlers and a couple of banelings in preparation for the attack. His timing would have been nullified and he would have been to far behind in eco to ever catch up in eco with that level of opponent.
Couldn't he just back off and get a third while containing his opponent with a larger army? He could pump drones nonstop while this is happening. 5 spine crawlers is 500 minerals and 5 drones.
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To back off and work on a 3rd could work if the opponent has committed too much to static defenses. But he would still be at just 28 drones and have invested in 44 lings with limited attack power due to banelings. I feel that he would have a hard time defending a counter roach timing-attack from 2 saturated bases.
The 5 spines might or might not be overkill, but a properly prepared defender will always has the economic advantage due to faster reinforcements and the relative cost effectiveness of static defenses.
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I have been facing this a lot lately and I can easily deal with it by making 2 extra drones after pool pops and pumpings lings and my first injects worth of lings and sending them out to deny his expo while already having mine on the way and there is nothing he can really ever do i drone behind it tech to roaches have an earlier 2nd hatch and more drones and just push out before his eco kicks in.
Btw i do 14g/14p and around 21 hatch
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Variations of +1 Roach timings are showing up a lot on the ladder lately. It makes for some annoying early-mid play as your expansion sets you behind 350 minerals and the gas deficit of a FE vs 1 base play is quite significant.
You end up with a few too many drones and not enough time to make your money back before the timing attack comes.
Word to the wise would be to keep even on drones with a 1-base player (or as best you can guess), put down 2 or 3 spines in a position to protect both your nat and the ramp to your main, and wait for him to attack in to you while you wait for your expo to pay itself off.
This timing attack isn't a guaranteed win if you play it right on the other end, but it's easy to mess up, and even if you DO play it right, it's nullifying the benefits of having an earlier expo.
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Good general use build, could see it having a lot of trouble against a speedling baneling expand simply because of the mobility and harassment, but overall nice solid opener.
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How do you survive a 15 hatch into ling all-in, or simply a ling all-in?
I tried this build twice, and died twice to this.
When the all-in comes you are doing
21 Four roaches
31 Expo (pump drones and roaches at your discretion at this point)
30 Overlord
35 Evo chamber
~38 Queen at main and transfer old queen to expo
When your hatch pops you have 2 queens, 4 lings if they survived scouting and 4 roaches. Yes you can scout a 1 base all-in easily, but you can't vs 15 hatch, and with a 14 pool it's pretty much impossible to punish a 14 hatch nowadays unless there's a micro mistake. You don't have ling speed before him so you can't scout anything but worker saturation on most map, and I don't think that is sufficient to know you need to produce more roaches. Yes you can hold the ramp with 2 queens or 3 roaches, but you'll lose your expo guaranteed.
I'd love to do your build because I love roaches but now I just lost twice and ZvZ makes me rage. Please enlighten me.
Edit: Oh yeah, please tell me how to pull this off, but also how you modify this build for maps such as scrap station and taldarim altar. Thanks
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On June 01 2011 12:32 Steel wrote:How do you survive a 15 hatch into ling all-in, or simply a ling all-in? I tried this build twice, and died twice to this. When the all-in comes you are doing Show nested quote + 21 Four roaches
31 Expo (pump drones and roaches at your discretion at this point)
30 Overlord
35 Evo chamber
~38 Queen at main and transfer old queen to expo When your hatch pops you have 2 queens, 4 lings if they survived scouting and 4 roaches. Yes you can scout a 1 base all-in easily, but you can't vs 15 hatch, and with a 14 pool it's pretty much impossible to punish a 14 hatch nowadays unless there's a micro mistake. You don't have ling speed before him so you can't scout anything but worker saturation on most map, and I don't think that is sufficient to know you need to produce more roaches. Yes you can hold the ramp with 2 queens or 3 roaches, but you'll lose your expo guaranteed. I'd love to do your build because I love roaches but now I just lost twice and ZvZ makes me rage. Please enlighten me. Edit: Oh yeah, please tell me how to pull this off, but also how you modify this build for maps such as scrap station and taldarim altar. Thanks
In the replay in the OP, MorroW had to get a fast roach warren or he would die to banelings if Nerchio decided to go them instead of roaches (he couldn't see the roach warren at that point). Overall, mass speedlings are usually somewhat of a gamble, or at least that is what IdrA constantly says.
I'l try to get more experience with ling all ins. I think that on 2 player maps, overlords should be enough to scout drone saturation and speedling amounts. The initial drone should be able to scout any fast gas for speedlings. Nerchio had 6 roaches at the time when MorroW chose to build drones instead of speedlings. Overlord scouting is really easy on scrap station, but on Tal'darim this build would be very hard to pull off. Speedling into roach would be much better for both maps.
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This is sure a solid opener vs early pressure
But you can't put any pressure to 14/15 hatch nor to a 21 speedilng expand.
On both you can just pump more roaches from a better eco.
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I don't think you can put this build order in a strict food count because the timings differ on what your opponent is doing(harass, ammount of units etc.). Some people say it's not so safe or it's easy to counter but from what i understood up to this point it's one of the safest builds in ZvZ(as safe as possible and at the same time with quite good economy - talking about expanding not the roach/ling attack @ about 9 mins).
We must also remember it's ZvZ so there will never probably be 100% safe build ever.
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I don't really like Roach expand on maps with a semi-open/open natural.
A speedling expand build can easily deny the expo for a significant amount of time which weakens the all-in alot. Also you have zero scouting and a counter attack (or just ling runby) is really easy since you delay meta boost that much.
P.S. your title says "Roach Speedling Expand" but you get your slings way after expo'ing.
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On June 01 2011 19:40 Kraelog wrote:
I don't really like Roach expand on maps with a semi-open/open natural.
A speedling expand build can easily deny the expo for a significant amount of time which weakens the all-in alot. Also you have zero scouting and a counter attack (or just ling runby) is really easy since you delay meta boost that much.
P.S. your title says "Roach Speedling Expand" but you get your slings way after expo'ing.
Having an open natural isn't really much of an issue with this build. The big deterrent is having a wide ramp to your main. On a map like Tal'Darim or Scrap Station, it just doesn't work because speedlings can runby and kill your drones.
On a map like Xel'Naga Caverns, it's not much of an issue because your Roaches can block the ramp while providing cover for your natural hatch.
In fact, if you continue to spend speedlings on denying my nat, I will just wait until I get a mass of roaches then go kill you.
That's where the strength of the build comes. Your opponent HAS to let you expand or he risks losing the game outright.
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I've had some experience with the build now. I find it is usually better to put down a lair as one pushes out if the opponent has fast exanded early game because the gas isn't doing much and the minerals are only enough for 6 lings, which wont do much at this point.
If the oppenent has a good defense, grab all 4 gas, make an overseer asap, and go for infestors while droning to use up minerals. It is very hard to hold off the counter attack or mutas without infestors. Use the overseer to contaminate their infestor energy upgrade so that their infestors spawn without extra energy. A third takes too many minerals that are needed for defending the counter attack so one has to use their game sense on that. I managed to get 5 infestors to pop at once when my oppenent reaches my base.
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On June 01 2011 18:27 Nerchio wrote:
I don't think you can put this build order in a strict food count because the timings differ on what your opponent is doing(harass, ammount of units etc.). Some people say it's not so safe or it's easy to counter but from what i understood up to this point it's one of the safest builds in ZvZ(as safe as possible and at the same time with quite good economy - talking about expanding not the roach/ling attack @ about 9 mins).
We must also remember it's ZvZ so there will never probably be 100% safe build ever.
What would you say one should is the best way to identify and counter this build? The only thing that really gives this away is the poor saturation on the natural and the early evo chamber that goes up before the roaches pop and deny scouting. Missile attack takes 2m30s to evolve and the opponent should suspect that the attack timing waits for that to complete giving him a time window to drone and prepare for an attack. The strength however lies in that it looks like a pure roach build and the speedling switch is unscoutable (save for a ol sacrifice) as it happens in the main behind the roaches. The opponent would be unlikely to build any banelings against an apparent roach build.
What would you say about maynarding ~15-20 drones and take the 2nd gas on the natural, saturating that instead of the main as the main is unscoutable due to the roaches on the choke. Or do you think that leaves your too vulnerable as you can't scout the opponent?
It seems like an extremely powerful build that might be a zerg standard. It's virtually unscoutable and even if you anticipate it, the only advantage you can squeeze out is a marginal drone lead as it hits extremely hard.
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Really nice build
Think this will be my new opener, i love how it gives you the option to all in if you want or go strait up macro.
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Great guide. I think this should be added to the liquipedia, at least as stub but most likely will become a certified build
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The problem with these sort of guides and transcribed build orders is that they often don't include or talk about the variations the players use based on scouting.
As the zerg player who has probably studied the most nerchio ZvZ-reps, I feel there's one big omission in the guide (apart from many small nuances that important but OK to omit).
If the opponent opens hatch first nerchio likes to skip the roach warren and go into a delayed ling speed opening instead, with an immediate expansion of his own. I saw someone reference to nerchio using this vs. morrow who always opened hatch first.
I want to try my special build vs you more nerchio.
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I'm having a lot of problems against speedling expand with this build.
Things I've tried:
Transition to a bling/roach timing push as soon as I see him pull off gas. I can't make the timing work though, and he has roaches and a better econ when I hit. I want to say that he'll have roaches out before I can hit any bling timing, but more experimentation is needed.
Continuing with the build just seems to cause me to fall behind on econ. It's fairly fragile until +1 is out unless I want to produce a lot of roaches, but timing pushes are hard due to the constant threat of ling backstabs. Basically it's really hard to keep tab on how many lings he's producing especially on maps where it's not easy to have an overlord check saturation at his natural.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CMtBn.jpg)
