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Hey!
Are you sick tired of facing and loosing to protoss deathball?
Are you tired of seeing pro players using roach corruptor and how they fail with this combo?
Do you want to have 200/200 Zerg army which can beat 200/200 of Protoss without much trouble?
If you answered „yes” to at least one of these questions, this thread is definitely for you. I'm presenting here ”Matiz Build”
Here are replays of the build against top notch players(MouzMaNa, Bischu, Nerchio) and how to execute defence against certain builds:+ Show Spoiler +MouzMana + Show Spoiler +Bischu + Show Spoiler +Bischu #2 + Show Spoiler +Aggressive 3 gate + Show Spoiler +http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29RGlMatiz_vs_%28P%29Tenpointfive_metalopolis_sc2rep_com_20110518/8492 TheFreshOne (GM toss eu) 5 gate into 2x robo collo allin. + Show Spoiler +http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29RGlMatiz_vs_%28P%29TheFreShOne_metalopolis_sc2rep_com_20110518/8494 Farmer (top50 GM) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio + Show Spoiler +This is against high master polish protoss, shows how to react to voidray collosus action. In general it was pretty good and long game. + Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29Vengeful_vs_%28Z%29RGlMatiz__sc2rep_com_20110619/9999 Me against nerchio; shows how to NOT engage against mass storms. Either way, shows a decent quite long game when i had advantage early and midgame. + Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29RGlMatiz_vs_%28P%29aAaNerchio__sc2rep_com_20110619/10001 Me again against nerchio: shows how to transition to offensive zerg out of my opening and mid game + Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29RGlMatiz_vs_%28P%29aAaNerchio__sc2rep_com_20110619/10000 I have a lot of other replays vs very good players but they are from previous patches. As I get more replays vs top players i will add them.
Part 0. Introducion of myself (if anyone cares at all lulz).:
+ Show Spoiler +Hey  I'm from Poland and I'm 19 years old. I've been top player in the world in Supreme Commander (TLO played this) and C&C Red Alert 3. I'm member of Team Rage (RG, not RAGE). My dream and goal is to become a progamer and since I passed my exams I train my ass off.
Part 1. Introducion of the build.
+ Show Spoiler +The main idea of this build is to get Broodlords relatively fast with strong economy and decent upgrades.
Why Broodlords?
MaNa called them „Broodimba's” and from toss perspective it might be right. They are the most cost effective (dps+hp/resources+supply) unit in Zerg arsenal after Ultras. The hugest problem of Zerg are not exactly the resources, it's the cost and supply efficiency of units. Other factions solve this problem by just teching to higher tier units like tanks or collosi. Why wouldn't zerg players do it ffs? Protoss has no good counter to well supported BL's. Even Blink Stalkers or Void Rays can't really counter it.
How and why?
This question smoothly transitions us into „Perfect unit mix” part, maybe the most important one.
Part 2. „Perfect unit mix”
+ Show Spoiler +Have you seen Idra vs MC on Metalopolis at Dreamhack Invitational? Idra made excellent timing attack with roaches and hydras and put himself into big economical lead. He got Broodlords afterwards, but he massed hydras as support, they got stormed few times, died really fast and BL's were left without support and got pwned too. Although Idra is awesome player, i'd dare to argue with the way he supported BL's.
In short: approximately the best zerg unit combo against standard protoss deathball is
6-10 Broodlords
5-8 Corruptors
8-10 Hydras
15-20 Roaches
3-4 Infestors.
It obviously varies on what do you face and how well your economy is going.
For example if you are on 5 bases and you face
Void Ray Collosus combo then you get less hydras, way more corrpotors, less BL's and more infestors.
Against Immortal Collosus Stalker you get more BL's, less roaches, a bit more hydras.
Against Immortal Stalker HT – no corruptors, way more broodlords, a bit more hydras, a bit more roaches.
However if you are on four or even 3 bases because you suffered to heavy pressure, you must consider making more roaches or hydras because you can't really afford such a heavy gas unit combo. You must bear in mind that you will not be able to fight toss deathball as effectively as with more BL's or infestors.
Every of these units has a very important role:
Broodlord – The unit which allows to fight deathballs on even foot, gives decent dps, but most importantly, has very good range and is high priority target unit. Which means you force protoss to blink into blob of your roach hydra or to sacrifice voidrays to kill BL's. IMO they are not supposed to harrass , their speed makes them vulnerable to basically everything. BL's can be considered as equivalent of collosus in Zerg army.
Roach- BL's can't operate without support (just like collosi!). They require meatshield, which can hold blink stalkers and that's role of roach. It covers hydras from Collosi fire, eats up stalker dps which otherwise would be corruptors, BL's or even hydras. Their dps with attack upgrades isn't that bad too.
Hydra. Those are surprisingly meaningful. When blink stalkers blink in to snipe BL's, hydras start to shine. Roaches can't kill stalkers fast enough to save BL's. They need dps support and thisis the role of hydras. They don't even have to take part in the battle and get fired from microed collosus, they can stay behind and enter then battle when stalkers blink in. They even can be used as meatshield in last stages of the battle when there are no or 1 collosi left and all roaches are dead. When there are only some stalkers left in the battlefield, it's better to loose some hydras than BL's
Corruptor – their role is obviously to snipe collosi, they do it slowly (due to low count) during the battle, but when your roach hydra reinforcements arrive, they will face no collosi and they will be much stronger. They also are (if upgraded with attack) decent answer to Voidrays, in case of sudden unit switch from protoss.
Infestor - it does good damage vs the whole deathball, in particular vs Voidrays, gives some control over blink stalkers and in general cuts movement of toss army. I don't recommend NP in ZvP, it's awesome in ZvT, but at max medicore in ZvP.
While good economy might give you decent advantage in late game, the correct unit composition can win you battles even if you are behind in economy.
„Perfect unit mix” is the concept worth to keep in mind
Part 3. The Build.
+ Show Spoiler +I divided this part into parts (lulz) because it's very huge. Part 0. The concept + Show Spoiler +What's so special about this build that I call it after my nickname? Well, few things: - Very fast +1 atk upgrade (early evo allows getting quite good upgrades on 1 evo) very fast 3rd base - Being very greedy but safe from any cheese or aggressive build. - Relatively fast BL's (I don't call it fast, because it's possible to get them faster but in exchange for economy and it's not the point of the build. It's faster than most of players get BL's anyway and BL's arrive just at the time when it's hard to fight deathballs without them) - Understanding the fact that ling roach hydra beats everything that isn't HT or Collosus heavy ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GiGyd.jpg) Yes, it beats gateway immortal hard. - Aiming at „Perfect unit mix”. Matiz build maxes out later than roach corruptor builds because it takes more time to get such a heavy gas unit composition uncommon opening - Huge base count in late game (since BL's are gas heavy, a lot of minerals are freed up, so Zerg player can have 6 bases at 20 min. Mark. You might have seen those things before, but I have never seen putting them together to make a good synergy like in the Matiz build. In short: -Fast +1 atk -Fast 3rd base -Fast BL's -Huge eco; ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/w7JYm.jpg) The pic taken from Bischu vs Me game. Part 1. Opening + Show Spoiler +The role of the opening is to set up as good economy as possible while being safe. I have my own opening, it's uncommon but works pretty well. - 15 pool. Safe against pylon cannon contain, vs cannon zealot rush and vs proxy 2x gate. - 2:20 min mark gas geyser - 15 hatch. If 15 hatch is blocked, try 16 hatch, if it's blocked too, get overlord and put 3 drones to the gas and then proceed like it would be normal speedling expo opening. If 15 hatch doesn't get blocked (and i manage to get it placed surprisingly often – gas makes toss think the expo comes later.) - 15 queen - 17 ovie - 18 2 lings. Because you placed down hatch, put 2 (TWO) drones to the gas, you can't afford 3 unless you cut economy. - Drones - 4:00 2nd Queen - 4:05 speed (get drones outta gas). The timing of speed is pretty good imo, upgrade ends a tiny bit before korean 4 gate hits your base. - More drones (unless 4 gate incoming) - 5:30 Roach warren. It's needed in case he's doing aggressive 3 gate or normal 4 gate. Don't build any roaches if he's passive. That's it for the opening. I like this style because it balances map control, safety and greediness very well. You can go for standard speedling expo, but it exchanges map control for greediness. I personally don't like it, it gives worse economy, so it's harder in mid game and tech to BL's comes later. You can try WZP's build too. You can read about it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190292. I strongly suggest it on close positions. You can win game outright and if not, with some smart adapting you can double expand and still be ahead economically. You can also try spanishiwa style. While it's awesome in ZvT, I think in ZvP it has some flaws, like inability to get really fast 3rd base (and it's very important) and hard time against 3 gate warpprism allins (or even blink stalkers). In short: On Close positions: Suggested: WZP's build, speedling expo Semi-suggested: Beta-alike hydra rush, Matiz build. Not suggested: Spanishiwa. On Distant positions: Suggested: Matiz opening, Semi-suggested: Speedling expo, spanishiwa Not suggested: WZP's build, Hydra rush (Note: WZP's part is not tested enough after release of the patch. I think patch weakened it a little bit BUT i work on the adaption where i snipe Cybernetics Core before warp gate tech finishes (it especially work well vs hallu first builds which appeared recently) and it cripples toss so much that i can double expo. Not sure if it's viable though) Part 2 Mid-game + Show Spoiler +Goals for the midgame: survive retardness like 4 gate, blink stalkers, 5 gate, 6 gate, DT rushes, 2x robo immortals etc. Get 3 bases fully running and 4th on the way Get fast +1 attack for roaches followed by +2 Set yourself up for hive awesomness. Ok so we builit Roach Warren at 5:30. We see the most standard thing, 3 gate expo. My build is designed to abuse 3 gate expo to the maximum. Aggressive 3 gate is rather bad and is easy to counter, while passive 3 gate doesnt have that good economy, it falls behind the zerg even more if he fast expands to 3rd. Although my opening is best vs 3 gate expo, it works fine against othe openings as well. I admit I'm inspired by December Build in early mid-game. I've refined it quite a bit, if you want to see the original here's the link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187551- 6:10 put drones back to gas, build 2 Gas Geysers and Evolution Chamber - 6:25 3rd base if maps allows it. (shakuras metal, typhoon, xelnaga etc). On maps like shattered or taldarim you have to take out rocks before, either with 6 lings or spine crawler) - With first 100 gas get +1 attack. The upgrade finishes just when 5 or 6 gate hits. IMO it's better than rushing burrow. The +2 ends a tiny bit before hive is done so you can start +3 immediately after. - 7:20. with next 100 gas get lair. (if he does the 3 gate moveout, delay lair a bit and get some roaches). You have evo chamber, if you see he has low sentry count it might mean it's phoenix build or DT expo build. Get spore crawlers at each base and you are actually ahead. - Your drone count should be around 45-48 now. - At 7:20 min mark start making units. About 7-10 roaches and some lings. Sacrifice one or 2 overlords(from diff angles of base) to scout what's coming. If it's 5 or 6 gate, keep making units, if robo get 7-9 drones and 2-3 roaches. If voidrays get 1-2 queens and hydra den asap. - At around 9:00 you should have either repelled some sort of aggression and you have 50 drones or toss was playing passive. In second case your drone count should be 60. You should get overseer, hydra den (if no voids b4) and overlord speed. When your overseer has 75 energy (ovie speed should be done now) fly into his base. If you see robotics bay, make 7-10 drones and take 4th. Try to contaminate it. IT'S SUPER IMPORTANT. If you get 2 contaminations on a robo bay, your BL tech will be ready at perfect timing and you will not have to worry about collosus timing attack. If you were pressured, get infestation pit at around 10:00, at max 10:30 min mark. If the toss is passive and takes his third base, drop it down at 9:30. Constantly scout and add few roaches and hydras as needed. In case he moves out you reinforce your standing army with a bunch (8-10) of hydras and you should hold most of attacks easily. 11:00ish - Infestation Pit is done, start spire and hive at the same time. Now we enter lategame. In short: 6:10 Evolution Chamber 6:20 Expansion 7:00 +1 ranged attack 7:20 Lair 7:20 Some units 9:00 Hydra den, overlord speed, overseer 9:30-10:30 infestation pit 11:00 ish Hive and Spire. 4th base around that time too. Part 3. Late-Game + Show Spoiler +The fun and pwnage begins right now ! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f6B7k.jpg) Goals: Survive till your BL's are morphed Do a massive attack when you reach „Perfect Unit Mix” and 200/200. Usually at 18:00 minute mark. Take 6 bases and full economy running. Adapt to tech switches from protoss. Ok so you have spire and hive researching. It's hardest part of the game. You have invested quite a lot into hive tech and it hasn't paid off yet. You are vulnerable to timing attack right now. Fortunately we were very greedy beforehand, (3rd base at 6:20 etc) we can afford teching while repelling protoss attacks. Immortal stalker isn't that hard to counter, just spam hydras. With +2 attack they deal riddiculous amount of damage. Some lings and roaches for support and you are fine. More scary think is Collosus timing attack. If you successfully contaminated his robo bay, it should come without Thermal Lances. If you see it coming (aka no or late 3rd base, high unit count) get a Spire a little bit earlier to be safe from Collosi. Your massive economy should be able to stop this, just flood corruptor+roach with tiny support of hydras. He will not have more than 2 Collosi at this time, it's still possible to beat it without BL's. You can't make many drones right now. Once Hive and Spire is done, get Greater Spire immediately. Make mostly Corruptors right now. Greater Spire should be ready around 14:30 minute mark. Morph your BL's. If he moves out at this time, try to buy time, fake engagements in middle of the map, this way he might waste Forcefields and will be more careful which will give your Broodlords time to morph. HUH BL's are done. WEEE, now finally you can feel safe and powerful. Take all bases that are possible (usually 6) at your part of map but mine mostly gas from them. You should not exceed 85-90 drones, this way your army will be too small. Ok so you got your BL's morphed, you are 200/200. THAT'S THE TIME TO ROLL. How to roll well? Read the part „How to engage”. From now there's really nothing special, get spore + 2 spines in each base to be safe from DT's. Watch out for tech switches, correct responses are in „Perfect Unit Mix” part. In short: 11:30 Units. Quite a lot of them. 14:30 Morph Broodlord's 15:00 – Take all bases possible 17:00-18:00 Make a powerful attack with 200/200 or even 220/200
Part 4 „How to engage”
+ Show Spoiler +There is one OMFGMEGAHUGE mistake you can make with your deathball. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xOHzn.jpg) DO NOT LEAVE YOUR BROODLORDS WITHOUT SUPPORT. It usually ends with: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0ChqD.jpg) The battle: Pick an open field for the fight. Despite of having BL's that fire over FF's, they are still riddiculously strong, so don't engage on chokes. Obviously set your roaches in the front. In most situations battle goes like that: 2 huge balls meet. Some fire is going on. You cast few fungals to weaken the ball. Protoss realizes he can't win the battle without sniping BL's. He blinks in. Your roach hydra broodling force takes them out or they blink out. You loose some BL's but only about half of them. Your ground forces will suffer from Collosi fire and usually all of your roaches will die. Corruptors shlowly take out Collosi. Now there are 2 ways of what might happen. Either you had economy advantage and his army wasn't upgraded enough or had too little Collosi. In this case you still probably loose roaches, but you can go forward and take out his bases. (Preferably his natural, so you can take out his tech structures)(Reinforces arrive while your attack is being done). OR you were on even foot and after loosing all roaches he still has a collosus or 2 left and some other stuff. If so, I suggest to retreat a little bit, morph all corruptors into BL's. Wait for reinforces and try again remaxed. This way you save your 10 hydras which are actually quite expensive. Reinforces should consist of roach corruptor and few hydras. Roaches to rebuild your shield and corruptors cuz they take out Collosi, help in case of voidray switch and morph later into BL's. Basically since now you repeat it all the time, till you finally win the game. Toss usually expands slower than zerg so you should be ahead, if he's being cocky use nydus to snipe some of his stuff.
Part 5.Tips 'n' Tricks.
+ Show Spoiler +- When you are 200/200 but somehow don't feel like attacking yet, build 20 evo chambers, remax, cancel them. 220/200 army means 5 more BL's or 10 corruptors. HUUUGE. -3, at max 4 queens are enough. You will have a lot of hatcheries and queens take precious supply. - If you scout that your opponent gets too greedy, you can switch into aggressive mode. Roach Hydra Corruptor attack when +2 attack finishes is very powerful. If he 1 gate expos, you might try mass ling or roach ling allin. You can also try roach drop style (like mondragon) if he expands too much. Then expand few times yourself and proceed with BL's hydras etc. - Nydus is excellent very late game when you both take all bases avaiable. - Be careful with getting stuff like burrow or roach burrow movement. It's definitely useful, but it's 250/200. That's already spire and a drone, or 8 drones. Before we get BL's, we are on razor's edge, every single mineral means a lot. Don't be afraid to get both ovie and speed overseer though. Scouting in this build is absolutely crucial. On May 19 2011 20:38 Anomandaris wrote:
If I can give a tip: Make an overseer to chase observer away from your main base so your infestation pit and hive is hidden.
NOTE:
It's kinda hard build to execute, if you are lower than diamond league, I'm not sure if I would recommend it, you might die to many things.(I can coach how to not die though  . The informations in this guide are like 30% of my knowledge of this builid. I feel like i scratched it just a bit. If you want to go into depth with me, details in next spoiler) There are so many aggressive builds which toss can use and this build holds them on very thin line.
Well, that would be it.
I hope TL staff will forgive me a tiny bit of advertising (coaching):+ Show Spoiler +If you liked the build, want to see my Broodlord Infestor oriented ZvT or interesting ZvZ action, tune into my stream: http://www.justin.tv/RGlMatiz (I launch streaming 1st june) I open coaching with my mates, mostly Grandmaster players our site is currently under construction. This build is kinda like 30% of my knowledge of this build in ZvP. I love to share this build with community but I don't want my future opponents to know EXACTLY every move I do. If you want to know how to counter 4 gate fake expo, scout that it is coming, if you want to know how to use every piece of information that protoss gives you to save overlord that you were about to sacrifice, if you want to see aggressive transitions out of this opening, if you want to see how to adapt to phoenix play and many many others; PM me for coaching here on TL or on EU battlenet RGlMatiz.747 (between RG and matiz there is small L). I charge 25$ per hour with big discounts for guys who buy more hours. First 3 guys will have 15$ per hour so hurry up If you are grandmaster player and you want to play against me, pm me, i need more GM practice partners, replays from our games will be good help for guide too. PS: For haters „if this build is so good why u dont win tourneys then?” I was having exams recently, I had no time to play that much so. Coaching is part of realizing my dream of progaming, if you buy even 1 hour it's huge for me.
Comment, feedback, send replays of your success or fails with it, everything appreciated
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I testify to the awesomeness of this build
As a 900 Masters zerg, i have been using this build for about 3 weeks since matiz taught it to me, with great success!
I have my own personal problems with 6 gates, but the build is defo able to defend it if its scouted with an overseer after lair gets up.
Great work matiz!
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As a protoss, I am now very scared xD
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Getting fast Broodlords safely is a cool concept.
Broodlords are basically the only thing that scare me in PvZ. When a Zerg stays lair tech for a very very long time, or goes ultralisk instead of Broodlord, my deathball eats it up easily, and I don't need to deviate my strategy or my army composition at all. Broodlords, on the other hand, make me sacrifice a lot of the strength of my deathball by either forcing me to make VRs, or forcing me to sacrifice blink stalkers.
Food efficiency is a late-game zergs biggest problem to face right now imo. Broodlords (4), Infestors (2), and banelings (.5) are the zerg's supply efficient units that zergs definitely should start sprinkling in more to their late game army to make up for their cost inefficient "core" units. Going for all three is a bit of a stretch, but adding broodlords/banelings (dropped from ovies) or broodlords/infestors into your army WILL put you on a more even ground with Protoss.
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As a RA3 player it's nice to see you again matiz
Huge guide <3
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This guide has been Zlexaccpeted!
Very nice! Well explained, detailed and great tips!
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in part 5 tips n tricks you wrote that 20 supply equals 10 broodlords while a broodlord takes 4 supply
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On May 19 2011 06:07 Sclol wrote:
in part 5 tips n tricks you wrote that 20 supply equals 10 broodlords while a broodlord takes 4 supply
He could have meant turning 10 existing corruptors into BLs.
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Yea true, my bad, editing it atm.
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looks great, good luck mate
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Wow i really hope my mechanics let me play this build :D. Is it just me or could something like this work against terran? i mean maybe no hydras i guess but something like that should work or not?
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Why did you do this thread ? Now i'm gonna meet zerg with a good build, instead of zerg with a good whine ability.
<=== Sad Protoss "imba"
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Ohh wow your screenshots are really impressive and really make your guide seem insane, will definitely try this out sometime
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I've been playing something like that (not same BO, but almost the same concept), and it can be really effective if played well. Every time I got to broods I won (I remember a guy saying 'broods imba gg' and quitting )
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On May 19 2011 06:36 Elthreann wrote:
Wow i really hope my mechanics let me play this build :D. Is it just me or could something like this work against terran? i mean maybe no hydras i guess but something like that should work or not?
I play infestor ling roach(or bling) style into broodlords in ZvT, I get them a little bit later than in zvp. Then i transition into imba corruptor broodlord infestor and i win most of my zvt's I recently started to experiment with roachhydra infestor in zvt, it's surprisingly good, i've beaten some GM players with it. Infestors <3 NP in zvt, fungal takes out marines, np takes out some tanks and roach + hydras (DPS DPS!!) clear the rest.
I didn't test it enough, not sure if it's viable at all, but it sounds like not a bad idea. I've seen ZpuX messing with roachhydra, adding infestors solves most of problems with roach hydra in zvt, aka huge meatshield marines and massive dps tanks.
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Was wondering about the possibility of the zerg 'deathball' based around the infestor, but don't have the capacity or experience to be able to do something, thanks alot for putting so much effort into this. I will watch the replays and read the guide afterwards, hope to implement this into my ZvP soon.
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THANK YOU (coming from a protoss player)...
I'd MUCH rather deal with a zerg willing to take it to a macro game, then blindly roach/ling all-inning every time I try to take an expo.
Great guide, hopefully at least a small % of zergs start using more macro oriented builds such as this one and I stand a chance in PvZ again
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Thanks so much for the amazing info you have provided here, this is another great guide for all of us zerg players who are struggling ZvP
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A scary scary build to face as Protoss. A nice change as well to the roach ling all in play that most zergs tend to do now.
Especially like the timings on the build and the fact that is solid and counters the main style of toss. Saadly I play toss, but great to see you making a mark Matiz. Sure it will help zergs in ZvP 
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If I can give some criticism: You take your third too fast, it won't work if toss scouts it.
If I can give a tip: Make an overseer to chase observer away from your main base so your infestation pit and hive is hidden.
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The tip is very good, i will add it to OP, however I disagree with criticism, I've worked a lot with this 3rd base, it works. I showed it in replay against TheFreshOne, he went for aggressive 5 gate. If you start to make roaches at 7:20 with quite a lot of ling support, you can handle every kind of aggression, even if toss sees this. Roaches with +1 are way stronger than normal, I beat 6 gates very often, even with 10 drone advantage.
The only problem was for me 4 gate fake expo, but it is preplanned, if he scouts my 3rd hatch its already too late to do it. I've worked a lot and managed to finally find a counter to it (roaches since 7:20 (if not scouted) cancel 3rd hatch, cancel tech and upgrade and mass units, you can hold 4 gate this way), getting 3rd hatch that fast is safe.
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Sen did this yesterday, made 40 spines, maxxed on 25 ultras and cancelled. Was rofl stomp.
Evchambers are 25 mins cheaper but they are 4x as large so placing 40 is nigh impossible unless its a HUGE map and you have creep spread..
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srsly, 50% of the zergs i phase (grandmaster europe) use this unitcombo in the lategame, they simply do it a bit later and safer - a faster tech to it would just make immortal/2coloss whatever timing pushes, a greedy fast 3rd or anything else too strong from toss.
+ a blinkstalker coloss with 2/2+ or a coloss voidray gateway mix are fucking strong and cost effecient against any zerg-army, yes, even this one (not even talking about archon/ht add). so you still need the better or an even economy vs good protosses.
dont get me wrong - your unitcombo is the best Z combo vs toss [baneling-drops can be great as well] - but the way to get it is what is important.
your way seems to be greedy and only work on extremly far positions.
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I see two problems with this: the lack of mobility, and the weakness to Storms. That doesn't make it any less scary. Void Rays massed beyond all reason might also give it some trouble.
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Very intersting build - I will definately check this out when I get home in a few days.
I have a few considerations. How does this build work out against those protosses who sits on their 2 bases and techs colossi right off their 3 gate expand, and make a 2-3 colossi gateway push with an abundance of forcefields around 11 mins? True, you can mass expand and get far ahead in econ but without the high tech units econ dont really matter.
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Diabolus, up for some testing games in bnet? I'm pretty sure i can hold timing attacks, but i mostly face mid GM players in ladder. Add me, RGlMatiz.747
Results of our games can be posted here to prove (or not) that timing pushes are handleable with such greediness)
@Thraundil If I see only 3 gateways from toss i switch into aggressive mode off of 3 bases, because Collosi will not have enough meatshield to be fully powerful, If he gets more gateways, then I just delay hive a bit and i hold it with roach ling hydra corruptor. It's dance of timings like in starcraft 1. Requires good scouting.
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On May 19 2011 23:25 Matiz_pl wrote:
@Thraundil If I see only 3 gateways from toss i switch into aggressive mode off of 3 bases, because Collosi will not have enough meatshield to be fully powerful, If he gets more gateways, then I just delay hive a bit and i hold it with roach ling hydra corruptor. It's dance of timings like in starcraft 1. Requires good scouting.
I guess thats the beauty of Zerg play, adaptability
One more round of questions if you dont mind.
The skipping of burrow+burrowmovement. I have tried to skip these upgrades in many games, but very often I find myself getting cut in half by those darned force fields and often such a mistake leads to a swift and painful defeat. How to you avoid having your forces chopped in two if the protoss pushes before you can get a reasonable amount of infestors and/or corruptor/broodlord?
You do not mention carapace upgrades for ground troops. Is this because with the way protoss high tier units like immortals and colossi scale with their attack upgrades, making armor upgrades that much weaker for zerg? Or is it simply to get higher tech that much faster / have 6 more roaches to hold those 6-gate attacks?
How about your upgrades on your flyers, and melee attack. The huge damage dealers are the broodlings, but you do not mention upgrading them. And you speak of no air upgrades either, do you start those as you start to reach the 5-6 bases and get the surplus of gas rolling? Because it seems to me that a highly +armor upgraded protoss ground force could withstand alot of unupgraded brood lord and broodling attacks.
Apologies if I can see this in the replays, I'm sitting here pretending to work and as such i dare not open Starcraft II besides I would like to hear the reasoning behind it too.
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haha xd
Well, I cut carapace upgrades, they arent that super important, afaik attack upgrades are better. I havent tried sneaking second evo, maybe it's doable but then you delay tech, choice is yours. I prefer to have faster broods.
Atk upgrade to the air units on the other hand is very good, corruptors +2 attack actually rape voidrays, no need to rely on hydras as AA, their range isnt the best for this.
About the Forcefield thing - fake few engagements, this way toss will waste some FF's or at least you will buy time and obviously engage on open fields and you should be fine, hydras with upgrade have nice range and they can shoot over FF's too. I usually win vs 6 gate MC's mass FF style, the strength of the flood of +1 atk roaches is really big.
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Looks like a very high econ build, but very interesting. It will really take zerg to have a lot of gas for this though as most of the units are pretty gas heavy. I don't know if i have enough APM to pull this off, sadly T_T.
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I wouldn't say it's apm demanding, it's rather game sense, scouting, macro and timing demading
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Very nice guide, and well formatted.
However I'd like to disagree on the "Perfect Unit Mix" part.
The perfect unit mix depends on your opponent's army. In this case, we're talking about the deathball. Not sure how you define the standard deathball, but I assume you mean either stalker/colo/void, or stalker/colo/void + 6-8 sentry (for the early/midgame, most protoss don't make sentries once their initial 6-8 die, they're too gas-intensive).
I don't think roaches are good at all end-game, they have very bad dps for their supply cost. So cut them out of your late-game army. Ultras are much better here, they do more dps against armored units than roaches do, and they make your army immune to FF. Same with corruptors, ultras do far better damage vs colo. Broodlords aren't necessary when you have infestors for FG, this lets you cut out air entirely and focus more resources on ground units + upgrades.
So against the standard protoss deathball, I think the perfect army is
5-6 ultras
5-6 infestors
rest hydra/ling
more stalker/colo = more ultra/ling, more voids = more hydras
FG the entire ball but with priority on the voids, run ultras into colossus, focus down the voids with your hydras. In addition, you can NP colossus if there's too many, or use ITs if you misjudged his # of void rays.
Roach/hydra/corruptor -> broodlords is a pretty good way to turn a strong mid-game army into a decent late-game army, but once you reach hive, using roaches & corruptors holds you back severely, and any good late-game army should not have either of these two units.
Here's a couple of replays showing this army comp beating colo/void deathball (I'm pretty sure they're both 1.3.3):
mTwDIMAGA v NrSRaNgeD - RaNgeD is top 50 masters EU
MeYera v MYMSaSe - SaSe is top 16 GM EU
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Interesting post Blasiu. I define standard protoss deathball as Collosi with gateway units. IMO Void collo isn't that standard anymore, I dont face it that often.
I think it depends on the style you prefer. I don't think it's possible to incorporate ultras to my builid.
Ultra infestor hydra ling is absolutely viable too indeed. But with broodlord zvp style, you can't have ultras, and if you mass too many hydras as support, you get raped like idra did, vs mc.
I think the part of my guide is still viable, because it's probably the best way to support broodlords. If you like to play ultras late game, then this builid isn't really for you I guess. I've seen nice Ultra style guide somewhere on TL recently too.
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I really like the idea of using the hydras purely as dps support. Pointing out that the hydras never even need to engage in the main fight and just need to keep your broods from getting blunked
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Good guide. as a toss player, I definitely fear broodlords more than any other units including ultralisks. I've had a game in Metalopolis where the zerg was about 40-60 supply up, and I had cost effective battles with the great use of HT, Colossi, and sentries, slowly taking the expansion and basically dividing up Metalopolis into 2 halves and won the game in 40 minutes even though zerg was ahead the whole game except for the last 2 minutes. of the game. With Broodlords, it's much harder to have a cost effective battles with roaches and hydra support. I can't just blink in to snipe them off with good ground support by zerg.
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This is a good guide, thanks for the contribution!
I don't know if it's mega-new, I've been seeing a lot more brood lord tech in my games. I'm not a big fan of 'patenting' and 'naming' builds after one's self, but that's neither here nor there.
I really really like the synergy with the build and the crisp-er timings that come out of it. The fact that you obtain a fast +1 and are able to march to +2 and +3 naturally with the build is so cool, especially considering how roaches scale with their attack upgrades.
So I'm a protoss player, trying to figure out overall good reactions to this build- If he opened stargate tech he'll have that semi-available, but how does this ball do against Colossus/Void ray deat balls? I know you'd have hydras, but the intense amount of gas that you're investing into corruptors, broodlords, roaches, and hydras might make this a weaker number than expected.
Second, how should a Protoss player view his upgrades? Should we consider using a double forge strategy for upgrades? We'd probably be too strapped for gas if we went for upgrades AND colossus AND void ray, so I assume it'd be a more ground-centric army in that case.
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Wow, I'm very impressed by your guide. As far as I remember, you always had your builds really well planned and executed. I'm glad that I'm not protoss, and I won't get a chance to play against this strategy
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On May 20 2011 03:43 Matiz_pl wrote:
Interesting post Blasiu. I define standard protoss deathball as Collosi with gateway units. IMO Void collo isn't that standard anymore, I dont face it that often.
I think it depends on the style you prefer. I don't think it's possible to incorporate ultras to my builid.
Ultra infestor hydra ling is absolutely viable too indeed. But with broodlord zvp style, you can't have ultras, and if you mass too many hydras as support, you get raped like idra did, vs mc.
I think the part of my guide is still viable, because it's probably the best way to support broodlords. If you like to play ultras late game, then this builid isn't really for you I guess. I've seen nice Ultra style guide somewhere on TL recently too.
It's not really about the ultras, it's more about getting fast melee upgrades and making use of zerglings & infestors. Once you get hive, you have the option of going BLs or Ultras depending on what you see, and they'll both be strong due to the fact that you have 2/2 upgrades with 3/3 coming soon after.
If there's no stargate units, you can skip hydras entirely and go straight melee. ling/bane/infestor/ultra with drops will smash any ground army except for pure zealot/HT/archon, and even then it comes down to infestor v HT micro. However if you scout zealot/HT/archon, then once you get hive you can get broodlords instead of ultralisks.
I think that both styles are viable depending on what protoss does in the mid-game, and it ultimately comes down to preference.
However for the record I think that melee+infestor is stronger than roach/hydra/corruptor once you reach hive, mainly due to roaches' & corruptors' very low dps when compared to ling/bane/ultra. In addition, consider this: ling/bane/ultra/BL share the same upgrades (melee), meanwhile roach/hydra/corruptor/BL use different upgrade trees (range for roach/hydra, air for corruptor, melee for BL broodlings).
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Well Broodlords do often surprise the Protoss opponent when they come out relatively early.
What i like to do in ZvP is trading armies with the protoss that is cost effective for me, that means Roach/Speedling and around 4-8 Infestors and try to keep the enemy army as small as possible, while teching to broodlords at the same time. After your first infestors are out you can easily afford the gas for Broodlords if you keep the Infestors alive.
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On May 20 2011 05:32 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 03:43 Matiz_pl wrote:
Interesting post Blasiu. I define standard protoss deathball as Collosi with gateway units. IMO Void collo isn't that standard anymore, I dont face it that often.
I think it depends on the style you prefer. I don't think it's possible to incorporate ultras to my builid.
Ultra infestor hydra ling is absolutely viable too indeed. But with broodlord zvp style, you can't have ultras, and if you mass too many hydras as support, you get raped like idra did, vs mc.
I think the part of my guide is still viable, because it's probably the best way to support broodlords. If you like to play ultras late game, then this builid isn't really for you I guess. I've seen nice Ultra style guide somewhere on TL recently too. It's not really about the ultras, it's more about getting fast melee upgrades and making use of zerglings & infestors. Once you get hive, you have the option of going BLs or Ultras depending on what you see, and they'll both be strong due to the fact that you have 2/2 upgrades with 3/3 coming soon after. If there's no stargate units, you can skip hydras entirely and go straight melee. ling/bane/infestor/ultra with drops will smash any ground army except for pure zealot/HT/archon, and even then it comes down to infestor v HT micro. However if you scout zealot/HT/archon, then once you get hive you can get broodlords instead of ultralisks. I think that both styles are viable depending on what protoss does in the mid-game, and it ultimately comes down to preference. However for the record I think that melee+infestor is stronger than roach/hydra/corruptor once you reach hive, mainly due to roaches' & corruptors' very low dps when compared to ling/bane/ultra. In addition, consider this: ling/bane/ultra/BL share the same upgrades (melee), meanwhile roach/hydra/corruptor/BL use different upgrade trees (range for roach/hydra, air for corruptor, melee for BL broodlings).
BL's also gain more dmg (they deal 20 dmg every broodling dropped) with air upgrades. The main role of Broodlords is actually not the dps, just having the ability to fight deathball from a good range and to force protoss to blink in. I think with +3 atk, roaches have actually nice dps, obviously not as good as ultras or lings, but it's okish. However hydras - their dps with +3 is just insane, while if you go ultra ling infestor hydra, you won't be able to get upgrades for hydras. Well, we just point out weaknesses of each compositions, you point out BL's minuses, I point out ultra cons . I think both are viable, the best proof to this is the fact that im (and it seems other GM players too) having success with this unit composition and dimaga has success with ultras.
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I saw you do this in a casted tournament and was surprised that it worked so well. Thanks for the guide.
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It's a nice build, but it feels like you are relying on the toss to not attack before you have your broodlords out. As zerg you can easily max out 200/200 before the toss, and then the longer you wait the bigger the deathball becomes. I've been favouring almost pure roach with a lot of infestors to combat the deathball, maybe some hydras if they have a stargate.
I've seen ROOTDestiny useing Broodlords very effectivly in ZvP with a rediculous number of infestors for NP and mass fungal.
Overall a very nice build but i prefer to rely on infestors instead of hopeing to get out Broods
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It's rellying on ling roach hydra to beat everything before critical amount of collosi show up and then broods are required and nothing else (except ultra infestor) works vs them.
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On May 21 2011 00:56 Matiz_pl wrote:
It's rellying on ling roach hydra to beat everything before critical amount of collosi show up and then broods are required and nothing else (except ultra infestor) works vs them.
Are you the Matiz from Supcom Ladder?
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Very good good matiz! i was clueless in ZvP for very long, and this gave me a good game plan to follow!
btw i remember you back in the RA3 days, good times :D
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Yeah im from supcom ladder, u played supcom as antisocial? I think i remember such player, the member of my clan xd!
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On May 21 2011 20:43 Matiz_pl wrote:
Yeah im from supcom ladder, u played supcom as antisocial? I think i remember such player, the member of my clan xd!
Nah, I wasn't that one in your clan cuz I was bad (I blame lag, as in the lag that Supcom had where 1 real game second went from 1 second to 5 seconds as you played).
I remember watching some of your 2v2 games in FA. I think one of them was vs TLO and TBO and quite ridiculous. We should start an ex-Supcom thing in TL since I know Sir Loui lurked around here dunno if anyone else good like _PINK or BrainSteel are into SCII.
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I think this is what zerg needs instead of just more build orders. It needs to think critically about how we compose our armies when skill levels and bases are equal. We can't always be 2-3 bases ahead of the protoss and then expect our tech to beat the colussus. Zerg can also take the defensive against the expanding and teching protoss player and end up with powerful brood lords.
In short: This gave me a very easy win as a diamond against a master level protoss on Scrap Station. And that's a small map where I was pinned 2 bases to 3 for a little while.
Thanks for coming up with this composition as it is obviously very strong.
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On May 22 2011 06:25 Advocado wrote:
I think this is what zerg needs instead of just more build orders. It needs to think critically about how we compose our armies when skill levels and bases are equal. We can't always be 2-3 bases ahead of the protoss and then expect our tech to beat the colussus. Zerg can also take the defensive against the expanding and teching protoss player and end up with powerful brood lords.
In short: This gave me a very easy win as a diamond against a master level protoss on Scrap Station. And that's a small map where I was pinned 2 bases to 3 for a little while.
Thanks for coming up with this composition as it is obviously very strong.
Indeed, in this build zerg can expand actually like in broodwar and is able to be 2 bases ahead which is huge.
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He slapped many players with this build, while i was watching.
He tought me a lot of the build and how it works, with his help my ZvP improved that much, that i actually was GLAD to face a Protoss! Before it was like 20% win rate now i am 65%+, still doing big mistakes, but this build works very well. I really recommend it, but you need to have a good ammount of APM to scout and handle everything else.
I'm glad that he posted the build now and goes for coaching and streams.
and Gratulations for Exams!
-Syntaxs
Edit1: This build DOESNT RELY on the Opponent not to attack, you can defend every attack BUT the perfect way is IF the Protoss doesnt attack. But if he attacks he sets himself behind, but forces you to make units instead of getting 4+ bases running and as many drones as you want.
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Your game against the first protoss showcased a nice deathball against mass voidray. He could have been a lot more active during the game.
Second game was really good. It's pretty clear that once you get a base advantage and kill the colussus that the protoss army can't keep up.
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Can you tell how you do hotkeys and formations? All roaches on one hotkey, hydras on another and so on or multiple hotkeys with different units for flanking?
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The funny thing is that i used 1 a move all the time. I recently just redesigned my hotkeys cuz they were nooby and now it is 2 whole army, 3 infestors and 1 group of roach hydra to do the flanking
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Very construcitve build. If you can deny the scouts and ealry pressure, i think this build will have a huge impact in ZvP. If you play aggressive and abuse protoss's ealry stage of being vunerable, i think by the time his 200/200 or even 150/200 kicks in, you would be getting your bl out on time to fight against the deathball. Continous army trade with protoss should get you into a good spot to get broodlords without any hesitation.
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I'm starting to use this build and like it so far.
How would you tweak the build for when a third is not available (i.e rocks), what time around to start making lings to take the rocks down?
Also I have some trouble when toss goes relatively quick stargate (like right after expo) and denies the third for a long time (because of slow lair I can't make hydras, and many times I can't see the stargate without ovie speed/overseer).
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After several games of practice to get the timings of this build down I took it on the ladder.
I must say, I didn't think it was going to work but it's working so so well that I have received many BM messages from my opponents on how zerg is so OP hah.
Thanks for sharing!!
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I've been doing this for a couple of days now, and it feels really good (at 900 diamond). The timings line up nicely where you can switch from hardcore teching/droning to mass unit production (with slower tech) to stop those annoying pushes. I still gg'd a couple of games I shouldn't have because I underestimated the roach/ling/hydra production you get from 3bases and how well it kills anything without Colossus. I quit to soon when I see the Protoss walking up onto my creep in the midgame while I have next to no units :S I need better macro under pressure!
Once you have Broodlords, the fun stuff begins, as you have a ball that can actually fight the Protoss ball. And the mass expanding for gas feels rediculously awesome.
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I really don't think this is the next big thing at all. The OP states the IDEAL SITUATION for a zerg player. Yeah, taking a quick third and being greedy while not dying is awesome. But if you have six(SIX) running bases that are operational by 19 minutes in, you can go mass ultra or pure roach infestor or broodlords and win. The composition isn't revolutionary(roaches/infestor/broodlord/corruptor is again usually the ideal end game composition for Zerg against protoss if they can afford it) and the OP seems to think having a huge economic advantage is a given as a zerg.
That said, your playstyle in the replays is very strong. As a player I think you pull off being greedy against toss very well and this type of timings will crush a "turtle toss." I also like the descriptions of your play in stages to introduce your own certain thought processes and the description of the game flow.
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I keep losing to early meta game big pushes :<:<
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On May 30 2011 18:23 Venomsflame wrote:
I really don't think this is the next big thing at all.
It's not, but is a very nice guide to timings. If you do this build and scout some form of early/midgame aggression, you can respond to it very well by just switching from droning to units, as you always have the tech ready to beat every kind of push. +1 Roaches for 6Gate, Hydra's for Immortal/Gateway pushes or Stargate/Gateway play, Spire just in time for some Corruptors vs. 2base Colossus timings and Broodlords at a time where normally, the Forcefield/4Colossus army spirals out of control.
What I have played currently, I feel it is a build on the edge of greediness, without taking gambles/risks.
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On May 27 2011 22:27 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
I'm starting to use this build and like it so far.
How would you tweak the build for when a third is not available (i.e rocks), what time around to start making lings to take the rocks down?
Also I have some trouble when toss goes relatively quick stargate (like right after expo) and denies the third for a long time (because of slow lair I can't make hydras, and many times I can't see the stargate without ovie speed/overseer).
I usually get 8 lings after 26 food. Or 4 lings and a spine crawler, it deals a lot of damage to rocks, but not always u can reach it with spine.
Spread creep towards third base so you will be able to reach it with queens. U need to scout it and make queens beforehand. then spores once it's ready and ur safe with 3 base vs 2 base and it's eco lead.
On May 30 2011 18:23 Venomsflame wrote:
I really don't think this is the next big thing at all. The OP states the IDEAL SITUATION for a zerg player. Yeah, taking a quick third and being greedy while not dying is awesome. But if you have six(SIX) running bases that are operational by 19 minutes in, you can go mass ultra or pure roach infestor or broodlords and win. The composition isn't revolutionary(roaches/infestor/broodlord/corruptor is again usually the ideal end game composition for Zerg against protoss if they can afford it) and the OP seems to think having a huge economic advantage is a given as a zerg.
That said, your playstyle in the replays is very strong. As a player I think you pull off being greedy against toss very well and this type of timings will crush a "turtle toss." I also like the descriptions of your play in stages to introduce your own certain thought processes and the description of the game flow.
Yeah it's true with six bases u can do everything. But getting to those six bases is not an easy thing and to do it safe you have to have solid build. Otherwise you will just get rolled by toss. I present here quite a safe way how to get to point when u have those 6 bases. It's obviously possible with other builds as well but this guide is about this certain build.
If protoss does the passive 3 gate expand(into whatever transition) then economic lead to zerg is indeed usually a given thing because of fast third. The situation is different with 16 nexus or FFE, then the game is even but it's not viable on all maps.
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The amount of excess minerals you develop against bischu is scary.. and it sort of reflects on the "opportunity" aspect of this build. You need so much gas that unless your opponent is openly letting you take virtually every gas on the map, you're going to run into some trouble.
Against bischu you have 5 running bases, and your composition is roach/hydra/infestor/corruptor/broodlord... This just seems unrealistic in a game that had more harass, or any harass for that matter. Bischu is working on a 1a victory the whole game and neglect to even poke at you until he has 3 collossi.
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On May 31 2011 04:33 .Mthex- wrote:
The amount of excess minerals you develop against bischu is scary.. and it sort of reflects on the "opportunity" aspect of this build. You need so much gas that unless your opponent is openly letting you take virtually every gas on the map, you're going to run into some trouble.
Against bischu you have 5 running bases, and your composition is roach/hydra/infestor/corruptor/broodlord... This just seems unrealistic in a game that had more harass, or any harass for that matter. Bischu is working on a 1a victory the whole game and neglect to even poke at you until he has 3 collossi.
Build-up of minerals can be put into Spinecrawlers/Spore, which can shut down non-dedicated harass very well. Just as Cruncher-type Protoss spam Cannons everywhere to stay safe from drops, so can you. With such a powerful army as this creates, you can fight the Deathball head-on, making it easier to split the map and keep it split after Hive is down.
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How does this hold up to lasertoss? Mass voids and colossus stuff?
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Mass(20-25) corruptors with +2 attack with 4-5 infestors with 3-4 broodlords and some ground meatshield.
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noooo plz no BL builds :0 im toss and they scare me. i just cannot deal with them without dieing
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Hey guys, as promised, some new good high level replays! I'm adding them to OP
This is against high master polish protoss, shows how to react to voidray collosus action. In general it was pretty good and long game. You can see massive usage of evo chamber trick.
+ Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29Vengeful_vs_%28Z%29RGlMatiz__sc2rep_com_20110619/9999
Me against Nerchio;
Shows how to NOT engage against mass storms. Either way, shows a decent quite long game when i had advantage early and midgame.
+ Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29RGlMatiz_vs_%28P%29aAaNerchio__sc2rep_com_20110619/10001
Me again against Nerchio;
Shows how to transition to offensive zerg out of my opening and mid game
+ Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29RGlMatiz_vs_%28P%29aAaNerchio__sc2rep_com_20110619/10000
Gogo sign up for coaching, there's last spot for person which will have to pay 15$ instead of 25$ for 1h!
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I truly love your build and feels it deals well with everything that a protoss can throw at you throughout the game. How do you approach the ZvT matchup?
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MATIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZ!!!!!!
You play zerg? Gross...
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On June 19 2011 20:07 Matiz_pl wrote:Hey guys, as promised, some new good high level replays! I'm adding them to OP This is against high master polish protoss, shows how to react to voidray collosus action. In general it was pretty good and long game. You can see massive usage of evo chamber trick. + Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29Vengeful_vs_%28Z%29RGlMatiz__sc2rep_com_20110619/9999 Me against Nerchio; Shows how to NOT engage against mass storms. Either way, shows a decent quite long game when i had advantage early and midgame. + Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29RGlMatiz_vs_%28P%29aAaNerchio__sc2rep_com_20110619/10001 Me again against Nerchio; Shows how to transition to offensive zerg out of my opening and mid game + Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29RGlMatiz_vs_%28P%29aAaNerchio__sc2rep_com_20110619/10000 Gogo sign up for coaching, there's last spot for person which will have to pay 15$ instead of 25$ for 1h!
What about your streaming?
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I had unfortunately problems with internet provider, I will launch streaming 1st july, not 1st june. Hopefully people will be still interested in watching my stream as i improved rapidly recently. I will provide commentary after games with analysis, analyzing my moves and reasoning behind it. I will invite top players to the stream, nerchio, TLO, rasowy or protosser etc, should be cool!
Stay tuned! :D
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Cool, since despite this awesome guide my zvp is by far my worst matchup
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It's nice to see a consolidation into a specific build focusing on Broodlords rather that us Zerg having whatever build we are using and knowing "Well, when my Roach/Corruptor/Infestor reaches the late game I guess I need to go Hive and get some Broodlords" Kudos. Also, has it really come up much in the past to anyone's knowledge making a 220/200 army? I knew it was possible, but never really seen it done with much regularity.
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About the early 4th base, would you saturate it at all or just for the gas? How many extra drones would you produce for it?
Also, is it necessary to apply pressure to protoss if he expands to his third? Or is it better just to get more drones for the 4th or even getting the fifth?
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There was a really awesome example of this today in darkforce vs rsvp from the IPL stream. Dunno if there are replays or VODs yet because it was just a couple hours ago...but it was really enjoyable.
He combined it with a lot of small nydus attacks (which I think might be legit since broodlords staying alive are really supply/money efficient).
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On June 22 2011 17:30 Matiz_pl wrote:
I had unfortunately problems with internet provider, I will launch streaming 1st july, not 1st june. Hopefully people will be still interested in watching my stream as i improved rapidly recently. I will provide commentary after games with analysis, analyzing my moves and reasoning behind it. I will invite top players to the stream, nerchio, TLO, rasowy or protosser etc, should be cool!
Stay tuned! :D
Can't wait to see it
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I have a lot of trouble with 1gate + forge or FFE openings because they just put cannons at my nat. What do you think I should do in this case?
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Do not open with hatch first. Cannon rushes are too strong ;<
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It's not hatch first, it's 15 pool 15 gas 15 hatch.
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man i was really struggling zvp (to the point that i deleted sc2 in an epic rage quit). then i saw this thread (remembered it really, i may have posted in here) and now i cant lose zvp.
great work. very detailed. the timing of when to do shit was throwing me off, and you really cleared up many of my shortcomings. i aim to get brood lords in every zvp but recently i was having trouble actually getting there.
thanks a lot! rank 1 plat, less then 100 apm, you dont need to be pro to use this.
edit: i did actually have a question. ive found gas to be tight when i am rolling in the midgame. infestors are very nice and i would like to get them. but i dont feel like i have the gas surplus to make both infestors and corrupters in a timely manner. basically, i want to attack as soon as i hit 200 cuz i know i will get there before the toss. is it worth delaying that attack by a minute or 2 to add infestor?
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With your timings (first units at 7:20) I die to a 3 gate expand push :-( I was on xel naga and I saw him moving out at around 7 minutes but i had just build a round of drones and could only build 3 roaches then he was at my base and force fielded the ramp and I lost my expo.
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@Vaporized:
It's good to add infestors once ur BL's are up. The idea of this build is to fight the deathball with broodlords, infestors are ok but they dont help u that much vs collosi. (U can NP them but i prefer BL's). The timing works in the way that u get BL's just when the deathball is getting too big to be handled with t2 units. In this situation it's hard to add infestors unless you switch a lot into infestors, which means u get 6-7 of them + Neural parasite. This might work, but i think BL's are more reliable as collosi have the same range as infestors and protoss can snipe them. It's up to preference but i think BL's are stronger.
@Kirdie: Yeah the timings are not set in the stone. If i see him moving out earlier, i dont make another round of drones but i get lings. It's also map dependant, on cross positions i will get even more greedy, on close positions i will cut drones and make army since 7:00 or even earlier.
BTW GUYS MY STREAM IS UP. IT'S IN TESTING PHASE (I CONFIGURE STUFF) BUT IT'S ABOUT TO BE ROLLING :D
Tune in, send the link to your friends and enjoy
http://pl.justin.tv/matiztv
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Hey matiz, can you answer a question I previously asked about my nat getting cannoned? What's the proper response?
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Hey, that's the reason why i don't go for 15 hatch. With 15 hatch stopping such builds is extremely hard, often the solution is to ragequit like idra vs mc. So basically have your overlord over your natural and once you see that he is putting cannons and pylons pull off 5-6 drones, maybe even more if he's spamming them. Target cannons and force cancel (u need 4 drones to deny 1 cannon). Then make 6 lings and they will clear stuff off. That's not always possible though, there's one really frustrating cannon contain which blocks the path to cannons. Cannons are put behind mineral lines and pylons block the way to them. Then my solution might not work. Retreat and get a tech(roaches or hydras) and crush the contain, expand and proceed with normal game. Or you can allin him with nydus hydra+mass ling.
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What to do when I open 14 gas 14 pool and protoss does forge expand and also cannons my nat? Not heavy, maybe 1 pylon+1/2 cannons? His expo is a little delayed, but mine is delayed by a long time (I need to get roaches etc.).
Btw looking forward for stream
EDIT: Btw this wouldn't be so bad if on the forge expand maps (shakuras, taldarim) protoss couldn't build a pylon and cannon on the low ground behind nat and then 1 cannon on the nat high ground....so fucking annoying.
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But I don't go 15 hatch, I follow your build -> 15pool, 15 gas, 15 hatch as stated in the BO in your guide. Even going pool first, I still get cannoned and would have to cancel my nat.
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ah, no way, i was Mister-E in supcom
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oh shit sure hope this thread doesnt get popular or i will be having major problems on the ladder lol
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Lost to this strategy today. Very annoying to fight =/
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Yes please more fast third oriented builds it is so fun to crush
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A few questions: do you build more than the initial 2 lings if he is not pressuring early? If you're on a map with a blocked third (Tal'darim, Shattered Temple, etc.), when do you make units to kill that block? The replay you posted on Tal'darim your opponent forge FE'd, so you were able to take a different base and didn't have to clear the rocks. I'm having a bit of trouble getting my third down when I'm droning hard early.
Lastly, can you advise on fourth gas timings?
Awesome build and fun to play with, both because it works well and because it's challenging to execute because you have so much going on in the early/mid game!
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Hello matiz!!!! destro from ra3
great build, glad to see some people still around kicking butt!
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@Ingenol
If there's no pressure then 2 lings are enough, if im scared of proxy i get another 2 lings so i can scout whole map with 4 lings. On taldarim i take 3rd base at the 4th expansion and i destroy rocks way later when i want to take 4th base. I just connect my natural and 3rd base with creep and its ok usually. 4th gas around 8 or 8:30 min mark I'd say.
Hey, nice to see ra3 and supcom players around here, so cool ^^
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After +2 ranged attack, how do you prioritize upgrades? Do you get +3 ranged and armor or do you switch over to melee which also opens up possible Ultra tech switches. Similarly, what about air upgrades?
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Upgrades are in general useful, so I get them as much as possible without hurting my BL tech or count. When greater spire is done, i start attack upgrade, mainly because corruptors are way better then, so they deal with voidrays much easier. In ground, i get +3 attack then carapace, unless i delay my hive for some reason, then I get carapace and then +3 attack. After that i get more carapace, not sure about melee upgrades. Probably just as game goes.
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EPT
