EPT[D] ZvP: Ling/Infestor, or How I grew to love ZvP - Page 9
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
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KnT
Australia243 Posts
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
On May 18 2011 14:44 Belial88 wrote: This is just getting crushed by mass zealot/archons... this sucks. u NEED a bane nest with this build to deal with almost any number of zlots, and later a roach warren and speed ready for the first hint of archon. is possible to def this way. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
Chargelot/HT with 1 or 2 archons is much stronger. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Alright, I know this is a bit of an old thread, but I've been trying out this style and I've been dying to zealots early game. Would it be advisable to throw down a blind bling nest early game just to be prepared vs heavy zealots? I know it delays tech, but it may be better just to delay tech than to lose the game to like 6 gate heavy zealots or 4gate with lots of zealots. Depends how heavily they commit to zealots. If it's proxy 2 gate, you'll need roaches. If it's some type of 4 gate, you'll need roaches. Otherwise, speedlings help. If you didn't open speedlings though, you'll need roaches or spines. if you've been dying to zealots early game though, it sounds like you are looking to far forward. Infestors will never come in time to deal with 1 base pushes, so you'll have to play in the moment, and realize they are doing a 1 base pressure, and use spines, speedlings, or roaches as necessary. Can't really go any deeper than that without replays. u NEED a bane nest with this build to deal with almost any number of zlots, and later a roach warren and speed ready for the first hint of archon. is possible to def this way. Yes, it was a frustrated comment made when the patch occured and I was losing a lot to 4 gate into DT into archons and failed DT into mass archon stuff. Which is stilll gay, but holdable. Ling/Infestor actually owns any sort of archon or HT focused play. Ling/Roach owns 1 base archon/zealot, and going into midgame you simply add in roaches to deal with archons or HT, but KEEP your infestors. I find it's better to stick with your plan than abandon the infestors. P needs colossi to deal with infestor/ling based armies. Storm works great, but roaches prevent any sort of HT timing attacks (and can even backfire on a P), and allows Zerg the time to get BL, which rapes storm. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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iopq
United States1132 Posts
On July 23 2011 16:45 Belial88 wrote: However, I've also considered that opening hydra is probably a lot better than opening infestors, since they do more damage in early game. You would still need mass spine, since hydras suck ass and die too fast and cost too much to lose, but with mass spine, it would shred anything that came close enough. I could see a Zerg opening hydras the same way they open infestors, behind a mass spine wall, and once you had 10ish hydras, you bust out, roll any P army dumb enough to stick around, and then take your 3rd. The problem is that hydras are so slow, it's impossible to deny P their third with them because, although you could force a cancel, every contain will eventually be busted, and losing gas intensive hydras just hurts you too much, since they are so slow you would inevitably lose them. infestors are fast enough to at least run away, and can burrow too. So you know, there's that. If hydras were a bit faster, or maybe you got overlord drops, maybe opening hydras would be better, and then transition into infestors once you have 3 bases up. I just take a third, get 66 drones (assuming forge FE), get ling/infestor/roach, go shut down protoss third, possibly take a fourth and get broodlords http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=230122 here the protoss got greedy and thought he could squeeze out a third early, but I had a larger army and smashed him, he'd have to get collossi out to take his third safely imo | ||
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xenocide.psv
United States25 Posts
On September 06 2011 06:03 deathtrance wrote: Alright so I tried this out again and I got raped by feedback That probably means you positioned your units poorly resulting in your Infestors being too far forward and within range. Getting off a decent FG or two with Speedlings to lock your opponent in place should prevent them from getting close enough to your Infestors if you play it right. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On September 05 2011 08:27 deathtrance wrote: Alright, I know this is a bit of an old thread, but I've been trying out this style and I've been dying to zealots early game. Would it be advisable to throw down a blind bling nest early game just to be prepared vs heavy zealots? I know it delays tech, but it may be better just to delay tech than to lose the game to like 6 gate heavy zealots or 4gate with lots of zealots. First of all IMO you're wrong to see banelings as a good answer to zealot in general. You rarely get a good splash so despite the bonus damage zealots are really good against banelings (and excellent with charge). As a baneling lover in ZvP they're mostly for Stalkers/Sentries balls. Second, I know it's not what the guide said but from playing a similar style, I'll say against Protoss you need to have a roach warren if you suspect any early push (and I really mean suspect, meaning you should always end up making it IMO). The tech itself is cheap, and will help you make the most of your larva when his army comes. | ||
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freewareplayer
Germany403 Posts
Just having Melee and ranged units is soooo much better vs those force fields, and with neural parasite your safe from timing pushes with colossus as well till hive. Dont be greedy get that roach warren, you might not have to use it, but it might just save your life and for that, 150 minerals really isnt all that much. | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
With a BLs army, Zergs is forced in to a "death-ball" style of play. You can look to Protoss in order to see how this army style works. Death-balls are very strong when kept balled up tight and used in a single game ending engagement. They are poor when split up and slow when remaxing. So we deal with death-balls by denying a decisive engagement with a mobile harassing unit mix. Or by the use of "counter units" to snipe off of key death-ball units over many small engagements. When we use either strategy it takes time for the damage to add up and set back the death-ball army . In a sense the "counter" to a death-ball is time. With the above in mind we can say 2 things. 1, that a BL army is strong when used in a "kill sequence" role. 2, that a BL army is poor when used in a "standing army" role. Now we can compare that to a Ultra unit mix. First we should define that a Ultra unit mix is, + Show Spoiler + Ultra army works well in small sizes. So doing drop play, or army splits are favorable to the Ultra army. It is effective at attacking in to a Protoss death ball, or a Arcon zealot/stalker army with the use of Overlord drop to surround. or mass banelings. However it is not cost effective at trading armies when the Toss has buildings in the way or has the proper units, That being Immortals. Immortals are only effective in mid to large battles vs Ultralisks where they can focuses fire them down before they absorb too many colossi shots. immortals effectiveness can be side stepped for a short time by using aggressive drop harassment to pull apart the Protoss army. With the above in mind we can say that, 1, Ultra armies are good when used in a "standing army" role 2, Ultra armies are poor when used in a "kill sequence" role Conclusions, The decision on which Hive tech to use should depend on how far ahead or behind you are in a match. If you feel like you can break a toss with one solid BL push and kill him with a followup ground army attack. Then BLs are grate. If you feel like you need another base or are being harassed very aggressively then Ultra tech will keep you in the game until you pull ahead it can also pick apart a Toss with drops if they do not react to Ultra properly. | ||
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tarpman
Canada723 Posts
I play basically a "no rush 15" style: I open with Ice Fisher and double evo, drone drone drone until I have a 3rd saturated, make a whole lot of speedling/infestor and start looking for a good place to engage. A lot of times I can trade armies and win with the speedling remax (especially once adrenal finishes), otherwise I start adding brood lords. One friend who I practice with has figured this out and developed a style to counter it. He opens nexus first (since he knows I won't pressure), chronos upgrades on two forges, and moves out with chargelot/archon/feedback around the time I start my hive. He has a good econ that way and equal or better upgrades when we battle. I do my best to surround with speedlings, NP archons, and fungal the rest but so far the battles have been pretty one-sided. I am really stubborn so I am trying to find a way to make this work even though he knows it's coming. Without a replay (sorry, forgot to have auto-save on, will post as soon as I have one) can anyone suggest ways to make the big battle go more in my favour? I am very much a macro-focused player so I try not to do "cute" stuff (baneling drops, 4 infestor hit squad, etc). I am expecting a lot of "don't be stubborn, make roaches" answers but I would like to beat this hard-counter if it's possible! | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On October 12 2011 08:42 tarpman wrote: I am very much a macro-focused player so I try not to do "cute" stuff (baneling drops, 4 infestor hit squad, etc). If you're good at macro, you should be able to harass while macro'ing fine. Harassment is not 'cute', it's a good way to control the pace of the game. Edit: Will need some reps to be able to give specific info, but unless you're much better than your opponent, you DO need to do some adapting (building roaches?). If you sit there building zerglings, and I sit here building archons, guess who'se gonna win? | ||
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tarpman
Canada723 Posts
On October 12 2011 08:50 Trusty wrote: If you're good at macro, you should be able to harass while macro'ing fine. Interesting viewpoint. My perspective is more like: If you're good at macro, you shouldn't need to harass. That does require significantly better macro than the opponent of course. I have auto-save on now but all my games with my friend already disappeared from unsaved. I uploaded a replay of my usual style against a ladder player who went zealot/archon. As you can see I scouted the twilight council but I thought he was getting DTs. My control is always bad but in this battle I think it was a bit worse than usual. The fungals were OK but my zergling surround is usually a little better. I would be very interested in ways of not dying in this situation with these units. The ladder replay. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On October 12 2011 11:55 tarpman wrote: Thanks for the feedback. Interesting viewpoint. My perspective is more like: If you're good at macro, you shouldn't need to harass. That does require significantly better macro than the opponent of course. The ladder replay. So innately, you are relying on your opponent to be bad, or make mistakes. Not a great strategy to have  A few of my students have had a similar mind-set to you, and what I've said to them is: It's great to focus on macro from a training perspective, but what you need to realise is that macro is a tool, not a strategy. If you're playing soccer, you can think of 'macro' as being able to run fast. Running faster than the other player is great, but when you come across a player who can ran AS fast as you, what other tools are you going to use? I know it's possible to argue that macro can always be improved, but there will be an attainable realistic 'macro-ceiling'. When two players have reached this ceiling, one of them is going to need other tools (harassment, game control, micro, scouting.. whatever) to beat the other. For 99% of players, this is not something to be concerned about. But for players wanting to be the best they can be, they need to be aware of the fact that macro is a tool, and that their are other tools that can help. Don't neglect macro, but don't neglect other stuff because of your pre-disposition towards 'other stuff' being lame/easy/cute. | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
On October 12 2011 11:55 tarpman wrote: Thanks for the feedback. Interesting viewpoint. My perspective is more like: If you're good at macro, you shouldn't need to harass. That does require significantly better macro than the opponent of course. I have auto-save on now but all my games with my friend already disappeared from unsaved. I uploaded a replay of my usual style against a ladder player who went zealot/archon. As you can see I scouted the twilight council but I thought he was getting DTs. My control is always bad but in this battle I think it was a bit worse than usual. The fungals were OK but my zergling surround is usually a little better. I would be very interested in ways of not dying in this situation with these units. The ladder replay. If you really don't want to go roaches (don't sure why since roach, infestor, baneling shits all over chargelot archon) Just add some banelings to clean up the zealots. Also the guy above is right. Harass isn't "cute". "cute" is immortal drops to snipe tech. In ZvT, if you go muta you need to harass or your going to get roflstomped. Harass is part of the game that distinguishes a good player and a great player. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
This style in the OP is really strong though and gaining use. I still feel it has the same vulnerabilities as not having mutas / air in ZvT. If this warp prism craze continues to catch on, this matchup is probably going to feel more like ZvT, and the weakness of this style will still exist. | ||
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tarpman
Canada723 Posts
On October 12 2011 12:13 Trusty wrote: So innately, you are relying on your opponent to be bad, or make mistakes. Not a great strategy to have Really? I think it's a pretty good strategy. Especially at diamond level there is no shortage of very bad players (I should know... I'm one of them!) and even into masters I expect that to be the case. Maybe at high master or low GM players start to be less bad but I will never have the time to get myself up there. On October 12 2011 12:13 Trusty wrote: Don't neglect macro, but don't neglect other stuff because of your pre-disposition towards 'other stuff' being lame/easy/cute. Unfortunately I've been focusing on macro for so long that I wouldn't know where to start learning about other stuff... my APM are entirely consumed with spawn larva, make units, make upgrades, spread creep, spread overlords, repeat... if I try to do anything else things go very very badly Anyway this is a bit off topic... I am happy to debate the relative merits of macro vs other styles but maybe a PM would be more appropriate. What I came in here to ask was whether there is a way for speedling/infestor to beat chargelot/archon/feedback in a fair fight at equal army values and upgrades. Is that possible or am I working at something that is hopeless? | ||
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