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i had a rebuttal typed out but nevermind.
ill sum it up thusly: not even close to all pros use ling bling infestor, especially in tournaments (hello ret). brood lords are only bad if you dont have 50 roaches sitting under them. and a maxed toss army will beat a max zerg army. thats why you attack when YOU max, because you will get there sooner then he does, plus reinforcing after the first battle is MUCH easier with larva effecient units like roaches as opposed to lings.
i bet if i played your style more i would find some things to like and vice versa. until then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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^ What pro still goes roach/hydra/corruptor? No, not all go ling/bane/infestor, but just about every pro knows now that you either need infestors, or baneling rain in ZvP for your damage dealer, and that hydras and BL's aren't as good as Banelings/Infestor or Ultras.
We see a lot of variety right now, I'm not sure if it's a metagame thing or what. Sen really, really loves roaches, but in the games I see from him he could get away with what he's doing using lings for the most part (there are timing differences between the two, roaches being better early on, lings better later on generally).
A lot of pros still use roach/hydra, or mass roach, but they use it exactly as it always was: As an all-in timing attack that leaves you extremely far behind in tech and will get smashed once colossi count gets up, but is extremely deadly until then, and is a very easy way to simply seal shut a game in less than 20 minutes with the aggressive 'punch' these units have compared to lings and infestors and banelings, which are completely staved off by forcefields, wall-ins, or die en mass every battle, win or lose. If Protoss lets lings slip in the early game on a FFE, Zerg can just mass roach to end the game, whereas ling/infestor will be a 30+ minute game, always, no matter how far ahead you are.
You have to have a macro hatch with ling play, obviously. Yes, it's much harder, but it's not really 'easier' if you are just losing.
The problem with roach play is the Protoss can just mass a deathball and a-move on 2 bases, and roll you no matter how many bases you have. There's also a huge 'timing window' before your 6+ broodlords pop where your vulnerable to getting rolled. Also just because you have 10 BL's and the rest in roaches, doesn't mean you'll win the battle, as a Protoss army with about 40 less supply can still beat it with blink stalkers, immortals, FF, and high colossi count, which isn't hard for a midgame protoss army.
You have to significantly outplay the Protoss to make roach play work, or use it as roaches are intended, as a deadly timing attack before robo tech kicks in. If you don't do either of these, you'll get rolled. The advantages to roach play is huge power in the early game and an ability to kill Protoss if you wipe out his army, whereas ling/infestor or ling/bane play is very vulnerable and must rely on spines early game but has huge power late game, although you can roll the Protoss army many times but still you can't end the game due to cannons and wall-ins, which can be very frustrating.
But at least ling/bane or ling/infestor play will reward you for outplaying your opponent. With Roach play, it's not always the better player who wins, as we saw from lots of idra's games.
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roaches do fine as your damage dealer as long as they are attacking. with burrow move they can attack en masse. especially if you are ahead on upgrades. i start +1 attack before lair instead of ling speed, which also gives me an advantage if the toss does any kind of earlier timing pushes.
to deal with a FFE i take a third around 4 or 5 minutes and start making roaches around 8-9 minutes. you can make enough to beat any ground push he does. it MIGHT take reinforcements to clean up, but thats a staple of zerg play anyway. what if the toss pushes before over lord drop or infestors are out in your style. with good FF you just roll over and die. that is not a solid way to play.
i would absolutely agree that hydras are the worst. idra's roach hydra armies get rolled because he spends too much of his supply on hydras that do next to no damage in any fight with collosus or storm. i spend that extra gas on burrow move, upgrades, more roaches, and corrupters for collosus.
a protoss on 2 base that starts creeping towards max is more and more all in. and what dont you understand about FF and burrow move roaches. they are the best counter to forcefields in the early to mid game. if the toss makes immortals instead of collosus THEN you make hydras and you will easily roll him. you cant have sentries immortals and collosus on 2 base, at least not in enough numbers to make me worried.
a max zerg army with upgraded roaches and 10 corrupters CAN fight fairly evenly against sentry blink stalker collosus around 150 supply. you will have so many roaches he will be forced to retreat or lose his whole army, especially when you are making more as soon as one dies and rallying them to the fight. there is no way he can keep up with the unit production, ESPECIALLY on two base vs my 3+. lol.
i dont understand how you can say lings are better late game. collosus and storm shit on lings so hard (one hit kills which means they do no damage). as the game goes on and i get 3\3 roaches they do actually grow in power. you can eat storms (burrow again), and collosus do not one hit roaches, which means they get to do damage.
pretty much any game i win goes 25 - 30 minutes. I never do any kind of roach timing attacks. i have nightmares of forcefields. really this build came out of wanting to find something that did well against the two most obnoxious protoss tools: forcefield and collosus. roaches do not instantly die against collosus, and with burrow move they suddenly make the toss army MUCH weaker. all the resources he spent on sentries are now wasted. collosus are trivialized even more when you have 10 corrupters and can either outright kill them all, or force a retreat. its all about buying time for the greater spire to finish. once it does youre good.
"There's also a huge 'timing window' before your 6+ broodlords pop where your vulnerable to getting rolled. "
that is absolutely not true. you are maxed on roach\corrupter. i wouldnt want to fight a maxed toss army with mainly roaches, almost every game a toss will be pushing out around the time the corrupters are popping (its like clockwork), but his ARMY IS NOT MAXED YET, if it is then something went wrong earlier in the game or your macro is awful. if you are ahead on upgrades, have burrow move to get under forcefields, and have corrupters to chase collosus you win that battle. every time. stalkers are shockingly bad against roaches when they are behind on upgrades and outnumbered.
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Good combo imo!
I always preferred ultras and not broodlords, but it can really smash a deathball without problems!
Even a 3-base protoss isn't such a huge enemy (:
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You know what's really helped me recently.
Having your ground army and overlords on the same hotkey. I always assumed you needed 3 separate hotkeys, which often times led to infestors not FGing or overlords just being kited by blink stalkers if one of the control groups had a critical issue going on, like having to avoid a storm or flank for NPs on colossi that are in the back.
I don't remember who it was (It was ZvP close by air bottom side of Metal, P at 9 Z at 6, P opened stargate, Z made hydras, P got lots of sentries and Colossi, it goes back and forth with P winning, and then Z gets baneling rain and moves in with ling/hydra/baneling rain and rolls him). It's on the tip of my tongue. But anyways, he had everything on 1 control group, and that really surprised me!
But it turns out, it's much smoother. You have it all on 1 hotkey, command your ground army as necessary for surrounds, and it's very easy to ctrl+click the overlords and to start them dropping before they are in range so the motherload hits right on target.
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Ever since zergs figured out to use ling-infestor, PvZ has been infinitely more fun and challenging. Blink Stalker-HT-Archon-Chargelot vs. Infestor-Ling-Bling is infinity billion times more fun than Colossus-Void Ray-Stalker vs. Roach-Hydra-Corrupter
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I just have to bump this as a great thread. I used to constantly lose to colossus/stalker balls with any combination of roaches and hydralisk.
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I used to have the same problems getting a decent enough army to even match the deathball regardless of collosi count or VR count, with ling/infestor with upgrades and NP it's really a joke even if we trade i come out ahead and I'm usually ready to tech switch if needed or just remax. I love the versatility
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I've been having a lot of trouble with it recently due to the lack of 'punch' it has. Your lings and banelings almost always all die no matter how one sided the battle, so you can't just go kill him. And then a simple wall-in or cannons just completely shut down lings and infestors once a certain number is reached in a cute wall-off. Infested Terrans are the best way to 'bust' people with it.
I think what I may do now on is always have a roach warren and upgrading it as soon as I get ahead, and then go mass roach for the killing blow. A big problem is that infestors are your lifeblood, and losing your infestors is just as bad as Protoss losing their colossi, but the problem is with the short range of FG and low HP, against colossi based builds your GONNA lose infestors no matter what.
Very attriticious way to play. I think if Protoss identifies ling/infestor, they can just go for a split map scenario, divide half the map with cannons, and just win when your mined out. I guess you go Broodlords, obviously, but I feel broodlords just aren't that safe. Voidrays and blink stalkers will just melt them away, and while you can fungal, if they have colossi support, your simply going to lose too much for it to be cost efficient.
Kind of like BL/infestor in ZvT. It's a great combo, but it's nowhere near sustainable, and on equal bases it loses.
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Usually when it gets to the trade army point im already tech'd to hive and have ultra cavern down and ready to pump ultras for a ling/infestor/ultra remax and can usually just move in and bust the wall with ultras while sending in reinforcements during it all
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On July 18 2011 08:30 Belial88 wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble with it recently due to the lack of 'punch' it has. Your lings and banelings almost always all die no matter how one sided the battle, so you can't just go kill him. And then a simple wall-in or cannons just completely shut down lings and infestors once a certain number is reached in a cute wall-off. Infested Terrans are the best way to 'bust' people with it.
vVvTitan kinda did this to me. He used blings to hurt my economy (double ling drop while pushing my natural with a lot of lings). He massed roaches and overran me once he found out that he did damage with the drops. You need an even economy to deal with massssssssssss roaches (they're cheap, so if your economy gets hurt, you won't have the higher tech units).
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What do you do against templar play?
they feedback infestors and they storm your lings.
EDIT: watched replay on mass voidray templar. There was not one storm, and maybe 2 feedbacks.
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Even though you're getting the upgrades for melee you can still make roaches. If you can scout them going archon, ht, zealot you should be able to adjust your army comp. Roaches will still benefit from the armor upgrades. The roaches can function as your "tanks" until you can get ultras. When going sling, bling, infestor you usually don't want to directly engage their army. By using backstabs/drops you can punish them for trying to move out.
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I have been practicing engaging similar food armies with my friend on unit tester and i cant seem to do any decent damage to a collosi sentry heavy deathball because he just kites my infestors with forcefields and runs from the overlords that are dropping.
can anyone help me with engaging a toss that is trying to kite away from your overlords trying to drop on his army?
i guess in an actual game he would be trying to push me so he wouldnt be kiting ( and if he was kiting then ultras would arive and he misses a decent timing) but im still interested in ways to engage offensivly.
by the way he is a diamond and i am plat but it was really really onesided the whole time
edit; sorry to clarify i was practicing without ultras
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Destiny has been taking games off the likes of Bomber and other korean GMsincluding Huk with infestor ling. I've noticed he goes 11 overlord 18 hatch though to keep him safer from 2rax and other early pressure. You're actually not that behind because queen kicks in about 15-16. Then you can drone like a mad or hold off early all ins.
It's gonna be fucking scary for P&T when Koreans "catch up". I know that's bad to say but only Coca uses infestor ling to any appreciable degree.
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On July 18 2011 15:13 tdt wrote:
It's gonna be fucking scary for P&T when Koreans "catch up". I know that's bad to say but only Coca uses infestor ling to any appreciable degree.
I have seen coca use infestor ling as well, but in his latest GSL games against Genius he doesn't use it. I think the reason is because the build is very counterable by protoss with proper positioning, where lings cant get any surface area, and composition. For a lot of protoss compositions, the only answer is to wait until ultra, and waiting is not always a good option. Also relying on counter attacks? Protoss doesn't always let that happen.
Also i don't know if this happens to other people, but a max infestor ling army gives me really bad lag... Too many ling.
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On May 17 2011 06:45 jacobmarlow wrote:
I am switching to zerg. lol
Attaboy!
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On July 18 2011 15:39 kushm4sta wrote:
Also i don't know if this happens to other people, but a max infestor ling army gives me really bad lag... Too many ling.
If you got a bad computer, mass speedlings is pretty hard to handle for your CPU/GPU. You can use lower settings or buy a new computer. You can also close useless programs while you are playing (msn/aim/irc/skype, web browsers ...).
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On July 07 2011 11:27 Trufflez wrote:
I thought I was alone in loving zvp :')
I have like an 80% win rate vs P.
I fuckin love infestors. The four festor kill squad then runs around burrowed harrassing with fungals and infested terrans is so fun and awesome :D
Then chuck a nydus into the mix and its so fun and effective
Note: it's the four-bro-festor-hit-squad  and you need someone to make the soundin the background XD
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What do you do against templar play?
they feedback infestors and they storm your lings.
I'll see if I can find better replays, I wasn't the highest Diamond when posting this thread.
But my response is morph more of my lings into banerain, or get ultralisks. Using roaches instead of lings, and going roach/banelingrain/infestor wouldn't be a bad idea either actually. It really sucks losing to FB, it can lose a winning game for you very, very quickly, so if you are in a fight and suddenly see unexpected HT, just pull them all back.
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EPT
