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On July 07 2011 03:04 zerker2strong wrote:
there are still alot of pro players that play with hydras and roaches and do really good against protoss i guess its al situational and there is just more then 1 working playstyle that works for this matchup
also hightemplar archon chargelot is pretty effective against this unit comp if controlled wel
True, you can literally win against ling/infestor with just stormless HT and zealots. In mid masters I play against this from time to time and it is the least threatening army comp against Protoss I've ever seen. It's bad for standard play because of the strain on larvae it causes, and your infrastructure has to support it.
Since an engagement with this kind of army usually happens on 2-3 bases, Protoss already has around 6 gates, they just pull back, add 2 more gates and a TA, and are up and running 60 seconds later. Zerg changing to muta never seemed to be a good idea either because if Zerg doesn't go for muta in the first place, if they tech switch to it P already have counters in place or can warp them in quickly. In my opinion this build structure for zerg doesn't leave them with a lot of options and confines them into a really tight space where if Zerg trades armies with Protoss and can't win the game, the zerg will need macrohatches and queens in place to remax, and the Protoss doesn't have to do anything different. You'll be left with either half the lings/infestors you had when you traded, or if you switch to muta or roach, you will have such a small number of them that they won't be effective either.
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So I've been using this strategy in ZvP lately. I learned a very important lesson last night:
It is of utmost importance to find a way to deal with HT. If you just waltz in and engage his army when he's got a ton of HT, you will lose horribly. You should use a suicide infestor to FG a group of HT when his army is on the move or something because feedback and storms will wreck you.
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On July 07 2011 03:04 zerker2strong wrote:
there are still alot of pro players that play with hydras and roaches and do really good against protoss i guess its al situational and there is just more then 1 working playstyle that works for this matchup
also hightemplar archon chargelot is pretty effective against this unit comp if controlled wel
While there is more than 1 working playstyle, I feel the future is in Infestor heavy play, whether with Roaches or Lings. Hydralisks (unless you scout heavy air) become useless after a certain point in the game (when Protoss gets AoE out.)
High Templar/Archon/Chargelot is not that effective. What you do is leave your infestors way back, fungal the chargelots and NP the Archons. After an Infestors NPs it rarely has enough energy to be killed by feedback. The Archons get +dmg to Chargelots, as well as your blings (which you need vs chargelots) and you clean up everything and if you have time kill the archons if not I fungal them and drop Infested Terrans so I don't lose an absurd amount of lings trying to kill them.
Pure Chargelot/HT is better IMO. You have nothing to NP (unless you grab a couple HTs and feedback each other) but this is much harder to do since feedback is instant and NP has to travel. Not to mention HTs are significantly smaller targets than Archons.
On July 07 2011 02:22 imPERSONater wrote:
I think your premise that roach/hydra is worthless is just inherently wrong. I use roach hydra+drops to good effect (ZvP is my best MU) at master league level. I also enjoy the heavy ling/bling style, but roach hydra can be done for sure.
Roach/Hydra at max is significantly less volatile than Ling/Bling drops.
You say you use drops to good effect, I say ling/bling drops can decimate probe lines in an INSTANT, while ling drops and especially crackling, take out buildings sooooo quickly.
While the Protoss pulls back spling counter attacks are the fastest and best at taking out probe lines and/or buildings.
Roach/Hydra leaves no gas for Infestors until later in the game, while spling/bling leaves plenty and upgrades don't cut into your army count. In fact the only real limitation with spling/bling/infestor is larvae. Supply cap is laughable, all your units cost 1/2 supply! Money? Spling/Bling is the most cost effective combo in the game, while infestor vs armored DPS is ridiculous (and fungal makes banelings even more cost effective!)
Roach/Hydra's skill ceiling is much lower than spling/infestor. I have said this before and I will say it again.
I used to be a roach/hydra/corruptor rager but now I love seeing "Protoss" when my loading screen comes up.
I'm gonna play tonight if I get some replays I'll post em.
1400 Masters
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I thought I was alone in loving zvp :')
I have like an 80% win rate vs P.
I fuckin love infestors. The four festor kill squad then runs around burrowed harrassing with fungals and infested terrans is so fun and awesome :D
Then chuck a nydus into the mix and its so fun and effective
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I think your premise that roach/hydra is worthless is just inherently wrong. I use roach hydra+drops to good effect (ZvP is my best MU) at master league level. I also enjoy the heavy ling/bling style, but roach hydra can be done for sure.
Roach/Hydra is effectively just a timing attack, and as soon as 2 colossi are out, your at a huge tech disadvantage. It also opens extremely strong, so if you can do early game damage, you can easily secure a third. The problem is that it ends very weakly, and BL is not good in ZvP (if you could go to 250 supply, roaches would be better even) and roach/hydra doesnt not work well with ultras.
Did anyone see Destiny's games vs. Bomber (T)? He does exactly this, with a few variations here and there (a couple Mutas for harass, Ultras and Brood Lords depending on the situation, etc). Here's a cast of Game 1 (http://youtu.be/7xoE5LrIP2c) + Show Spoiler +
where he's able to get back into the game after what should have been a death blow from Bomber just by massing lings and infestors
. Anyways, it looks like this has the potential to work against more than Protoss.
Warning: 40 minute epic
Anyways, this looks like an awesome build, and you can hear how absurdly cool Day9 thinks it is. Awesome post too.
First off, Bomber was Terran. Secondly, he had clearly never seen the style before, so was just thrown off. I would imagine if Bomber had practiced against it more, he would easily beat it. He made some pretty silly mistakes that, had he been more prepared, I'm sure he would have won.
I think Ling/Bling/Muta is much better in ZvT, but Bomber had just never seen that style before. Infestors allow for awesome comebacks, and had Destiny gone mutas, he would've lost due to being too far behind.
He also doesn't do 'exactly this', as he gets Broodlords - which are absolutely necessary since ling/infestor does nothing against siege tanks - and doesn't use banelings (which aren't necessary in ZvT ling/infestor since infestors handle the bio).
also hightemplar archon chargelot is pretty effective against this unit comp if controlled wel
Anything 'controlled wel' is great. Hightemplar/Archon/Chargelot is actually not effective at all against this composition, Ultralisks tear apart archons and HT, and while chargelots can prevent you from ending the game, Protoss can't end the game either. Once you morph 5 banelings, you clear out the zealots and win. You absolutely need ultras to deal with the archons though, and just making some mass roach will easily win too.
It is of utmost importance to find a way to deal with HT. If you just waltz in and engage his army when he's got a ton of HT, you will lose horribly. You should use a suicide infestor to FG a group of HT when his army is on the move or something because feedback and storms will wreck you.
You need to time t3 with HT. Baneling rain easily takes care of HT though.
I fuckin love infestors. The four festor kill squad then runs around burrowed harrassing with fungals and infested terrans is so fun and awesome :D
While P cry, and infestors are our only good Lair tech unit against P right now, I'm thinking that infestors, or rather FG, is not that important. It can be important for holding mid-game timing pushes like 6 gate, but that's in instances when mass spine+hydra would do better than mass spine+infestor (unless you go CoCa style super fast infestor rush, which as we saw, owns midgame gateway pressure). I feel that NP and baneling rain is much better, and FG is not really important to this build at all.
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Ehhhh FG is very important against Blink Stalker/Colossi imo. Which is still very common.
FG in general is important against blink stalkers or any air play. As well as an important as an aid for Baneling Drops, and the DPS against armored is significant.
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I really think roaches are just such horrible units. The only time they are useful imo is against 2 gate zealot openers or 4 gate, in which case you just mass roaches with burrow or speed and crush the opponent. Even 4 gate expand will get rolled by it. But other than that, I just feel roaches are such useless units in PvZ. They are so damn supply inefficient. In late-game it seems any situation where roaches would be useful, ultras or even BLs would be way better.
I see Destiny goes ling/infestor - but he NEVER gets banelings. To those who watch him more than me - and I watch almost all his vods on sc2casts, what exactly does he do? How does he hold off simple midgame pressure stalker/colossi? And what does he do, just use ling/infestor all game or what?
I hear him make comments like "ultras are bad" or "i dont like banelings", and he makes roaches against HT (I always see him lose those games too, where he uses roaches). Oh well.
Roach/Infestor is such a horrible unit combo imo.
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@Belial88, I have to disagree. I think Roaches are fine units, but not in all situations. Early game, I think they're probably the best thing to use vs Protoss timing attacks cost-for-cost.
However, as the game goes on, they lose effectiveness. They're tough and easy to replace, which is a plus, but Ultras are tougher and Lings are easier to replace. They fill in that "jack of all trades" role of just being a filler unit.
Destiny mainly wins by massive Infestor play in ZvP. He'll have an absurd number, like 10 Infestors, then lay down huge Fungals and NP every Colossus in sight. He also plays a very harass-heavy style with Ling runbys, Roach (with speed) to snipe expansions, and Infestor drops. This lets him stay way ahead, which is how he keeps his advantage.
Roach/Infestor is, like every other composition, good where it is intended to be. It has good burst and decent survivability, plus sneakiness with burrow-move. It's probably the closest thing to a straight-forward ground fighting force the Zerg has, as it doesn't rely on a lot of flanking or positioning to work, which is why a lot of people like it. It doesn't work in every situation, especially when there's HTs involved or a high number of Colossi, but small Colossi and Gateway armies can melt to it.
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Roaches are really good vs ht oriented builds once you have tunneling claw research done. Mass infestor/ling vs ht/archon/chargelot is not easy by anymeans, I usually switch to mass roach and cut the infestor count if my opponent is going the ht route. Also, roach infestor is not bad vs stalker/colossi at all, make roach/ling/infestor is even more effective.
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Hi, master protoss player here.
I am bumping into more and more of this ling/infestor style recently, and I just don't know how to deal with it. I understand that I have to go for heavy upgrades, so upon scouting it, I usually throw down 2 forges and start chronoboosting upgrades.
My main problem comes from the composition I should use, I feel like NP is just shutting down all the intuitive play like zealot-collosi or zealot-archons. I have been thinking to get a couple phoenix to lift off the infestor that are using NP since this composition is lacking AA, I tought it might work well. Also, should I go for more storms or feedbacks, I dont think getting archons is worth it unless all infestor are dead or that they don't have energy anymore (hence the feedback) but storm on the counterpart just kills a lot of shit.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks 
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On July 16 2011 01:59 SpiZe wrote:Hi, master protoss player here. I am bumping into more and more of this ling/infestor style recently, and I just don't know how to deal with it. I understand that I have to go for heavy upgrades, so upon scouting it, I usually throw down 2 forges and start chronoboosting upgrades. My main problem comes from the composition I should use, I feel like NP is just shutting down all the intuitive play like zealot-collosi or zealot-archons. I have been thinking to get a couple phoenix to lift off the infestor that are using NP since this composition is lacking AA, I tought it might work well. Also, should I go for more storms or feedbacks, I dont think getting archons is worth it unless all infestor are dead or that they don't have energy anymore (hence the feedback) but storm on the counterpart just kills a lot of shit. Any help would be appreciated, thanks
Best is using ht for feedback, range 9 same as np, you can kill many infestors quickly or at least deplete their energy. Storm is also very good vs lings. Scariest composition I face when using ling/infestor is ht/archon/chargelot.
Alternative route is sniping the infestors, same stalker/colossi combo, focus firing any infestor in range, if infestor got your colossi and is not in range, blinking a few stalkers forward in a suicide style to snipe those infestors that have np activated, all the while keeping your colossi as far back as possible to force infestors to get close, so you can snipe them. Not nearly as easy as using feedback, but I have lost to this.
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On July 16 2011 01:59 SpiZe wrote:Hi, master protoss player here. I am bumping into more and more of this ling/infestor style recently, and I just don't know how to deal with it. I understand that I have to go for heavy upgrades, so upon scouting it, I usually throw down 2 forges and start chronoboosting upgrades. My main problem comes from the composition I should use, I feel like NP is just shutting down all the intuitive play like zealot-collosi or zealot-archons. I have been thinking to get a couple phoenix to lift off the infestor that are using NP since this composition is lacking AA, I tought it might work well. Also, should I go for more storms or feedbacks, I dont think getting archons is worth it unless all infestor are dead or that they don't have energy anymore (hence the feedback) but storm on the counterpart just kills a lot of shit. Any help would be appreciated, thanks
I seriously have no problem with ling/infestor, I rarely use colossus and this Z unit comp happens to be kind of a joke to my unit comp. I either open DT or Phoenix with same build order, then expand... It handles most everything except early early pressure which forces you to change your bo anyway.
If Zerg doesn't rush infestor, when you hit them they will have either too few or not enough energy to really do anything useful. I most of the time start with DT expand and then follow with archons to end it or just deny the third. If you keep them on 2 bases for long enough you shouldn't have a problem unless you get outmanuevered
This isn't that high though, only 1450 Masters so I'm sure it will change when I get higher
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Hi, master protoss player here.
I am bumping into more and more of this ling/infestor style recently, and I just don't know how to deal with it. I understand that I have to go for heavy upgrades, so upon scouting it, I usually throw down 2 forges and start chronoboosting upgrades.
My main problem comes from the composition I should use, I feel like NP is just shutting down all the intuitive play like zealot-collosi or zealot-archons. I have been thinking to get a couple phoenix to lift off the infestor that are using NP since this composition is lacking AA, I tought it might work well. Also, should I go for more storms or feedbacks, I dont think getting archons is worth it unless all infestor are dead or that they don't have energy anymore (hence the feedback) but storm on the counterpart just kills a lot of shit.
Any help would be appreciated, thank
Post a [H] thread with a few replays and I'll be willing to help you out.
Personally, I feel Protoss can auto-win against infestor openings, I just think the metagame isn't there yet. Too many people either ignore the infestors completely, or "Okay he made Rock, I need to make Scissors". You have to realize what infestors ARE:
1. Extremely slow
2. Total lack of offensive capability
3. Destroys gateway units, and is Zerg's only counter to blink.
The critical time to scout Zerg is after lair pops, to see where he is going (if you are good enough, you can actually tell by his gas timings, generally mutas require extremely fast 4 gas, infestors are usually 1 gas around 30 until you get enough for lair, then add the next 3 over course of lair morphing, fairly quickly). But as soon as you know Zerg is going for infestors, you need to expand and take a third immediately, as early pressure will likely be rolled by the infestors (you can still feint, most of the time they will need mass spines until infestors pop, which really hurts Zerg's ability to expand). From there, you wan to be taking bases every 2-4 minutes against infestor play, and cannon up expansions against lings.
The hardest part about infestor play is against Protoss who just split the map and put cannons down.
Also HT FBing is viable, very viable even against 10+ infsetors. You have to realize that energy is actually a crucial part of infestors, I'm sure much like energy management on storm is against bio. And high colossi counts with gateway support melt infestors as well. Gateway armies, or gateway with a few colossi, or deathballs, infestors owned. But 6+ colossi, and suddenly infestors are destroyed. In that case Zerg either needs pro baneling rain micro (which you can out-micro with FF and blink and kiting) or Ultralisks, which may not yet be viable since it costs much more than the protoss army does.
The post above me is also really good case in point. It's not about what units you use though, I'd recommend you stick with what you know, or stalker/colossi, but the idea is move out and pressure before infestors pop, deny the third, and take a super fast third of your own.
Archons are good against infestor play, but you have to hit before Ultras come out, which will tear apart archons.
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On July 16 2011 14:08 Belial88 wrote:
1. Extremely slow
The infestor has a speed of 2.25, which is equal to the ghost and faster than the high templar. 2.25 is the "standard" speed. The infestor has a speed of 2.93 on creep. The infestor is just "slow" compared to the roach and speedling.
Vs Infestors I have been trying to play really defensively and getting to max supply as fast as possible with expansions and cannons like you said. My unit composition is void ray/colossi+gateway units. I push with my main army while I use a warp prism to warp in a bunch of zealots into his main to possibly take down his infestation pit and evolution chambers.
I try not to engage him directly during this because of fungals, but if I see that he is out of position due to my harass, I'll just push in with my main army and punish him.
On maps like Shattered you have a free third. Usually I get my 3rd at around 10 minutes, but on this map I get it at around 8.
There are other maps that have easy to defend 3rds and it's always good to expand quickly on those maps vs infestors.
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Well I just wanted to drop this replay (1755 ~ master) where my opponent goes for an 11 minute storm high templar timing attack... I never faced this before and I was sooooo clueless on what to do... I think this is a good build if you know for sure that your opponent is going infestors (my opponent just did it blindly so I guess it's his timing attack).
Anyways here's the replay
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221530.jpg)
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The infestor has a speed of 2.25, which is equal to the ghost and faster than the high templar. 2.25 is the "standard" speed. The infestor has a speed of 2.93 on creep. The infestor is just "slow" compared to the roach and speedling.
Right. And the infestor is infinitely more slower than mutalisks and roaches. Also, you can't really kill anything with ONLY 6-12 infestors, you need roach or ling support, which means your push will come much later than if you want only roaches, or roach/hydra, or ling/bane. Meaning you have time to take a fast third.
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Zerg is a reactionary race, protoss is not. Ultras are effective vs. a mass stalker, collosus composition especially if the guy doesn't know how to micro. In principle he can feedback the infestors and blink micro the ultras but that at least requires some skill. And yes there are obviously builds that hard counter this but that would only work if protoss knows exactly what your doing which is kind of the beauty of zerg. As a zerg you can switch to another unit composition quicker than the other races and surprise your opponent. I don't believe in the idea of a unique composition that is just good against everything. At least it shouldn't be like that and I don't think it is.
I also find it quite surprising that the game isn't more tested in programs like unit tester. Should be easy to do especially for pros who don't do anything else (at least it seems to me as a spectator that unit compositions aren't tested enough).
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^ Yea it really drives me crazy when Protoss keep making Colossi when Terran has mass vikings or Thors or Zerg has mass ultras. Immortals are such amazing units, but apparently Protoss never think that. Like i CONSISTENTLY see Protoss do that, Tyler, Genius, etc.
It's surprising how bad some units are and how awesome others are. Banelings, Ultralisks, and Zerglings do surprisingly well sometimes (80 supply +1 lings move commanded through colossi then attack, which don't block ground unts, beats 70 supply colossi) while other units are surprisingly bad (Broodlords and Corruptors are way too weak to kill units before they wipe out your entire ground army already, roaches are way too weak and die too fast to heavy deathball play and siege tanks, and cost way too much supply).
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On July 17 2011 11:36 Belial88 wrote:
Broodlords and Corruptors are way too weak to kill units before they wipe out your entire ground army already, roaches are way too weak and die too fast to heavy deathball play and siege tanks, and cost way too much supply
dude. you're missing out on how brood lords and roaches work when you have both. i go mass roach with double ups, into broods asap. i right click the roaches so they follow a brood lord, and then a move the brood lords where i want to attack. this combo is so deadly.
this combo works well against force fields (with burrow move roaches which are awesome), storm, blink, archons, and collosus. immortals and air are the only things that make me deviate from this plan (hydras if no aoe, or more corrupters, which can corrupt the immortals, or lings if nothing is going to instantly kill them after i make em), and rarely blink micro makes me get infestors.
the broods shell whatever from siege range and the roaches are there to protect the broods. you just stomp through his bases.
he is left in a bad spot if he only has a ground army. if the stalkers shoot the broods, then roaches will kill him, or vice versa. its crucial to keep a good handle on the units tho, as its the combination that is so powerful, not either unit by itself.
i also like this style because you max super fast and can go attack (or more likely meet his approaching army halfway), because u maxed so early you have been building up resources and can remax instantly over and over. i end zvp games with ~8k\4k routinely because im always maxed. being maxed on roaches is fine, as long as the toss isnt maxed too. after the first battle where we more or less trade armies (im at 200, hes around 150), im going to remax 200/200 roaches in one production cycle and along with surviving brood lords be at your expo asap. if i killed his entire army in the first battle then he will be ~75 food, and will only have the production capacity to be back to ~150 at the aboslute most, and if he made 10+ gateways.
this style seems much more solid and less gimicky then relying on my opponent to be a noob and not make templars if i go ling infestor. seriously. i played a few customs the other day to try out ling infestor and lings just dont cut it against protoss for me, they are too fragile. i had a maxed army of ling infestor ultra, and my 40ish supply of lings was fried instantly by storm.
and this is only against toss if that wasnt clear, i try not to make roaches against terran if possible.
and the brood lords arent there for their dps, they are there because they have siege range and mess with targeting ai and force the stalkers to focus on one group of units or the other, and the one they arent shooting at will kill them. its the same idea behind corrupter/ roach/hydra. either the collosus are going to get shot down, or the roach hydra will decimate his stalker number.
3\3 roaches do a surprising amount of damage, and can take a surprising amount as well. you should try it.
edit: and wtf is up with your ling collosus comparison. Protoss ALWAYS have collosus supported by gateway units. you cant run your lings straight to the collosus and start attacking.
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wtf is up with your ling collosus comparison. Protoss ALWAYS have collosus supported by gateway units. you cant run your lings straight to the collosus and start attacking.
Right. Maybe you should read the posts? I was responding to someone saying people should play in the unit tester more. In unit tester, 80 supply +1 lings beat 70 supply pure colossi. Obviously, it's not a real world scenario. But it's something that's definitely counter-intuitive. I'm glad you were already aware of that.
I'm glad you like Broodlords, but Idra, Morrow, and many other pros have come out and said Ultralisks are almost always better against P than BLs. If you don't like the composition and prefer Roach/BL, great for you. But don't knock it just because you don't like it.
they are there because they have siege range and mess with targeting ai and force the stalkers to focus on one group of units or the other, and the one they arent shooting at will kill them. its the same idea behind corrupter/ roach/hydra. either the collosus are going to get shot down, or the roach hydra will decimate his stalker number.
If you play around in unit tester, Roach/Hydra/Corruptor/Broodlord, in any ratio to eachother, get owned by normal gateway/Colossi or deathball play. I'm glad you can make it work, but every pro Zerg now don't use that composition anymore because they think it's bad. I don't use it anymore because I think it's bad. If you like it, great, some find it too micro intensive and hard. Personally, I don't like a composition that sucks. With stalker blink or VRs, BL's become useless, and roaches just melt away to colossi when they have enough.
Templars can't just pop out immediately, and while a non-newb protoss can easily FB all of them, that's the timing when you need to be making ultralisks and baneling rain and moving away from lings and infestors.
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EPT
