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On May 16 2011 21:50 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Masterleague zerg here. I've been working with zergling-infestor a LOT. And it does pretty bad against the new archon fad. Since you don't have anything to fight off archons if you go pure zergling/infestor/baneling, you're pretty much dead in the water.
Also, I disagree with the statements you are saying. ( Mainly the line that says 'Ultralisks counter voidrays', I mean what? ).
Roaches are NOT bad, at all. Infact, Roach infestor works just as well as zergling infestor, ifnot better in certain circumstances.
The thing with ZvP is that on the protoss side, anything goes composition wise. Heck, rediculous unit compositions involving tons of phoenix work against zerg. Archons now work wonders because they don't die quickly and deal damage FAST. Mass sentry in some occasions work. Due to this variety, there is no midgame composition from zerg that will ALWAYS work. This is why you have to be careful. The HARDEST decision you will have to make in a ZvP is your midgame composition based on his army. Because its this decision that turns a ZvP into something winnable versus something that looks like a buildorder loss.
Also, ultras as your main army composition is not very good against a reactionairy protoss. Unlike your recommendations, voidrays still kick big ultralisk ass. Immortals do an amazing job against them and archons tank their damage well. Even a random zealot in the path of the ultralisk can make sure there won't be any splash damage on the core stalkerball.
Have you tried NP on archon? Though yes I agree -- there are quite a few timing issues surrounding the strat up to NP.
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So I've been having an issue with this build:
Recently I've been going ling/baneling drop instead of ling/infestor because I think it may be better for early aggression. However gas starts to really pile up when I do that, as in I can't spend my gas fast enough. I was wondering if I should only grab 3 geysers with that opening, or what. I never get bane drop + infestor until after I hold off the mid-game pressure, although I may just get speedbanes if they don't have any sentries for some reason.
Also wondering maybe ling/infestor is a better opening because of early blink aggression play. Here's an interesting replay where I have trouble massing up gas. The guy I'm against is so terrible, he even misses his nexus, cancels, and puts it down again because his buildings block it. He fails DT so I think I'm safe for a third, I didn't particularly expect his push to come so soon since he went DT, I thought that would delay it a lot, but you'll see in the replay I have trouble with the blink. I even cancel infestation pit and go for baneling rain instead. But I pile huge amounts of gas.
I take the gases on my 3rd without having necessary tech units to spend that much gas on, but by the time my third goes up I'm already banking huge gas. I forgot to get 2/2. I don't know, this game sucked. Really aggravating game, I macro'd pretty well I think and he played like a total scrub. I think the supply was 60 vs 30's at one point.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-216700.jpg)
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Roaches will perform better vs deathballs. Lings provide better mobility but roaches are one of the fastest ground units in the game as well. Protoss units attack with high damage infrequently. What this means is that a lot of lings die instantly in the first few seconds of combat regardless of how strong the neural and fungal micro is. With roaches, they can survive the first hit and will be able to sustain combat much better. A roach has 135 hp compared to the 35 hp of a ling iirc. 4 Lings is about the cost of a roach and have 140 hp combined so health wise they are very similar. However when those 4 lings take 35 damage on 1 their dps is cut by a quarter while the roach is fine. The second 35 hp of a ling down brings it down by 50%.
Against zealots, colossi, and archons roaches are a necessity.
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^ I disagree? I mean its not how much theorycraft you got going on there, but after about 4 Colossi, roaches just get completely nullified. Add in just a little ground support or forcefields, or void rays, or normal gateway and stalker support, and deathballs own it.
I mean it's pretty obvious roaches suck, I don't know what your trying to say. Are you saying pure roach is better than pure ling? Because that's not really relevant...
Banelings, by the way, do better than pure roach against pure colossi. Actually, I think pure ling even does better than pure roach against pure colossi.
The idea is to use the low gas cost of lings to get higher tech units. The fundamental basis is that you aren't going to kill a high tech protoss army using low tier roaches or lolhydras, but by going zergling you are using extremely cost efficient banelings and have lots of gas left over for tech like ultras or infestors.
Roaches are horrible against chargelots/zealot+FF, colossi, and archons.
yea i dont know what your trying to say... we know that pure roach just sucks, and deathball play like VR/Colossus was made to pretty much hard counter roach play of any sort. Pure roaches get owned by any sort of colossi build. They also get owned by gateway armies before or after mid game (when supply is an issue). I mean if you look on paper roaches are 'awesome' against Terran, but in reality they suck.
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i dunno about pure roach getting owned by any colossi build. the average 2 base colossus build (which has been thankfully phazed out now-a-days, i hated doing it) has a good minute or two timing window before the first two colossi pop where a zerg can flood a stalker sentry ball with swarms of burrowed roaches - we're talking like 30 to 50 against an 8 sentry stalker ball of about 40 supply. i do agree that when colossi reach critical mass that roaches are not viable anymore, but it's only at that stage of 4+ colossi or greater. any map in the current blizzard map pool that's not tal darim or shakuras prevents protoss from being able to hide behind a 2 base wall and power straight to colossi, and even on these maps where it is possible zerg can still identify this build and deny map presence / contaminate for long enough until they have a bunch of corruptors.
the only time i ever get colossi off of 2 base anymore are when i see a very fast hydra den, and that's assuming i don't have enough time (either due to walking distance or me spotting it late) to attack right away before hydras become a factor.
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On June 22 2011 10:33 TheFavorite wrote:
Roaches will perform better vs deathballs. Lings provide better mobility but roaches are one of the fastest ground units in the game as well. Protoss units attack with high damage infrequently. What this means is that a lot of lings die instantly in the first few seconds of combat regardless of how strong the neural and fungal micro is. With roaches, they can survive the first hit and will be able to sustain combat much better. A roach has 135 hp compared to the 35 hp of a ling iirc. 4 Lings is about the cost of a roach and have 140 hp combined so health wise they are very similar. However when those 4 lings take 35 damage on 1 their dps is cut by a quarter while the roach is fine. The second 35 hp of a ling down brings it down by 50%.
Against zealots, colossi, and archons roaches are a necessity.
Against a pure zealot/colossus/archon army? Yeah, perhaps. Against any one of those being heavily represented? Definitely not.
In my experience, archons are what really scare me if I'm going for bling drops. If I'm going for ling/bling/infestor into ultra, it's mass HT (+gateway, no collosi needed) that scares me most.
I assume people here area also aware of the somewhat older, but very detailed guide on playing mass infestors in the mid-game. If not, here's the link -- check it out:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214187
(I think that might be pre-infestor buff, but the idea holds just as well now. And yeah, as several people noted, it's a high-variance build: Small engagement details can make a *huge* difference in the outcome of the combat, either way. This is in contrast to roach-heavy armies, which usually have a much higher "guaranteed" damage output, though a much lower "ideal" damage output, for the same supply of ling/infestor.
Except good force fields, those can really wreck roach-heavy armies hard.)
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Yea I've lost quite a few games when I should have clearly won because I move commanded my army somewhere for about half a second too long when I should've a-moved or sat around, not having my dozen hotkeys set up because a push comes a bit earlier than I'm prepared for, because I miss a hotkey, et cetera. Not having my hotkeys set up is one of the biggest reason I lose with this build.
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So I just saw the first two games where a pro did this build!
At Dreamhack, there was GGNaugrim vs oGsMC Metalopolis:
http://sc2casts.com/cast4421-oGsMC-vs-Naugrim-Best-of-3-DreamHack-Summer-2011-Group-Stage
Game 1
At the GSL last night! ZENexCoCa vs SlayerS_Alicia GSL Code S Ro32 Group D (It's the first game so you don't need a ticket):
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65655
As you can see in the games, once the midgame passes where the Zerg is very weak, once they get 3 bases up and running, they are invincible. In both of these games, Zerg gets into later midgame, and you can immediately tell that they've won the game, and Protoss doesn't have a chance. Yet despite that, the game drags for 30 minutes, because the one problem with this build is the lack of punch like roaches, hydras, and mutas have.
In CoCa's game, I felt like he made a few mistakes, composition wise. His first big engagement was 1 by 1 streaming ultras, into lings, into infestors, into baneling rain. If he had engaged all at once, he would have won the game right then and there, but you have to have those infestors there to root, or you get kited like he did in the first engagement.
In the 2nd/final engagement, he didn't have his infestors! I don't know where they went, but that's a critical reason why he lost it when he should have won. He also had no banelings, and that was pretty bad too. But he really needed his infestors, when Protoss just has a small number of strong units like archons and Colossi, you need to NP them all. He also engaged in a choke. Obviously, it didnt matter, he knew he already won so that's fine.
I always get a hydra den and roach warren in end game now with this build, because I sometimes will just remax on roaches just to put the final nail in the coffin. Also may need hydras if they end up hiding a million void rays, and for some reason you lose your infestors.
Now what's *REALLY* Interesting about the ZENexCoCa game was his opening, his build going into midgame. He made a super fast lair on 2 gas, and then went 3, then 4 gas, and went infestors very quickly. My assumption was how weak this build opens up, and you need spines, but when I saw how fast he went lair and got infestors I was like "This is ridiculous, he can't support it and needs spines" - but he actually pushed out! And he attacked and crushed the opponent! I was very surprised, I assumed with this build you need to sit back and 'take' the push, and then get your third.
The Protoss did exactly what I thought he should do, he was going to take a super fast third. But CoCa actually pushed out with his earlier infestors, and denied protoss their third! This was a really crazy game for me to watch, I did not think that would work at all. I think because he knew CoCa went FFE, instead of 4 gate Expand or something aggressive like that between the timings of 6 gate and 4 gate, he could pressure the Protoss instead. This goes against everything I thought my build was - that you were weak to early pressure and could lose to a macro protoss who takes a fast third and denies yours. Instead, CoCa showed you can put on early aggression with super fast infestors, with just a handful of lings. That was amazing, to me.
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Problem with ling infestor is that it is extreamly cost heavy on larva, i've been doing alot of roach infestor lately.
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I would consider getting mutalisks instead - I think they are underrated. But it requires some apm but forces more than enough from your opponent, so you can expand safe etc. You just need to defend the 6 gate if it ever happens or equal.
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Problem with ling infestor is that it is extreamly cost heavy on larva, i've been doing alot of roach infestor lately.
Yes. You need to make a hatchery at 60 supply, if you can't take a third you must make it an inbase hatch. At at least 90 supply you need to be throwing another hatch down, either your macro hatch, or your third.
I don't think Roach/Infestor is that good, because as we have seen a few months ago, Deathball turtling on just 3 base will destroy roach based play. Infestors 'counter' colossi and voidrays with NP, but only in conjunction with melee units. With ranged roaches, the range goes from 9 to 9-4=5. I mean maybe - infestors aren't the damage dealers imo, but in roach/infestor, they are.
I'd love to see some replays though of how you pull it off.
I would consider getting mutalisks instead - I think they are underrated. But it requires some apm but forces more than enough from your opponent, so you can expand safe etc. You just need to defend the 6 gate if it ever happens or equal.
Actually recently there's been a few replays of ling/infestor/muta. I really disagree with it, I think you need banelings for the damage. Ling/Muta is really strong, as we've seen during the beta due to stalker AI, but I feel even with just getting 3-4 infestors and the rest of gas on mass muta just doesn't give the punch that banelings and ultras would. It's a bit harder to harass with mutas as well given the nature of warp gates, blink, and storm too.
You could defend the 6 gate with a ling/infesto opening, just keep those 4-5 infestors alive and go mass muta. I'm not sure. There's a lot of freedom with not going roaches and hydras though, that's for sure.
Anyways, I'm still so amazed by the ZENexCoCa game where he actually pushed out against Protoss. I almost want to say infestors are imbalanced now lol, because my whole philosophy revolved around the idea that if Protoss just denies your third for 2 minutes and grabs your own, you lose, and that's a huge weakness to infestor openings. That game was just so amazing, maybe it only worked because Protoss only had 5 gates,no robo or 6 or 7 gate, or was going for a super fast third instead of pressuring, then third.
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On July 01 2011 07:56 eYeball wrote:
I would consider getting mutalisks instead - I think they are underrated. But it requires some apm but forces more than enough from your opponent, so you can expand safe etc. You just need to defend the 6 gate if it ever happens or equal.
wtf Mutalisk infestor? or Mutalisks instead of Infestors?
Belial I actually open like Cocoa does on bigger maps (like tal darim) going quick lair and infestors (allows infestors out to hold a timing attack) and if no attack comes move out to deny their 3rd.
I usually get lair off 1 gas, get another, ling speed, get another gas, +1melee infestation pit when lair pops and my last gas, then get some lings up, energy obviously take down rocks for my 3rd and move out with a group of lings and 5-6 infestors.
Normally Protoss does not have much at this time and you can win the game at this point if they are careless (and especially if you do what Coca did and get every single sentry.)
I'm at 1400 Masters currently.
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^ So I practiced a bit with the CoCa build, and here's my conclusion:
It only works against FFE. If the opponent does a 1 gate expansion into 4 gate, or 3 gate sentry expand, you will autolose because of early game pressure. The CoCa build is reacting to the FFE, and knowing you are safe until the 10 minute mark at least, meaning you can not only drone hardcore, but tech as well. Against, say a 3 gate sentry expand, you can drone up, but you at least need a couple spines and a handful of units if he pushes.
I'm thinking if I see FFE, I'll get ling speed, leave a guy in gas, drone up, then make lair as soon as I can afford it and throw a geyser down every 20 seconds from there.
I'm also thinking it may be impossible to win with infestor openings against 3 gate Sentry Expands into pressure before your infestors let you grab your third, while Protoss grabs their third. However at Diamond level, most Protoss just think to end it on 2 base, or try to kill you, and realize they can't break through your spines, then they expand, as opposed to expanding as they move out. I'm seriously considering only opening infestors if the opponent FFE, and that it can't work if they go 3 gate Expo or gateway expo.
As for mutalisk/infestor, I forgot what game I was watching where someone did it. I think it was a Huk vs NEX??? on ladder, it's basically ling/muta, except you open ling/infestor like we are discussing here, grab your third, then get lots and lots of mutas and just keep those original infestor alive to make your ling/muta ball much stronger. As with ling/muta, protoss just laughs and a-moves to your base, defends with warp gate tech and stalker blink.
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On July 02 2011 01:14 Belial88 wrote:
^ So I practiced a bit with the CoCa build, and here's my conclusion:
It only works against FFE. If the opponent does a 1 gate expansion into 4 gate, or 3 gate sentry expand, you will autolose because of early game pressure. The CoCa build is reacting to the FFE, and knowing you are safe until the 10 minute mark at least, meaning you can not only drone hardcore, but tech as well. Against, say a 3 gate sentry expand, you can drone up, but you at least need a couple spines and a handful of units if he pushes.
I'm thinking if I see FFE, I'll get ling speed, leave a guy in gas, drone up, then make lair as soon as I can afford it and throw a geyser down every 20 seconds from there.
I'm also thinking it may be impossible to win with infestor openings against 3 gate Sentry Expands into pressure before your infestors let you grab your third, while Protoss grabs their third. However at Diamond level, most Protoss just think to end it on 2 base, or try to kill you, and realize they can't break through your spines, then they expand, as opposed to expanding as they move out. I'm seriously considering only opening infestors if the opponent FFE, and that it can't work if they go 3 gate Expo or gateway expo.
As for mutalisk/infestor, I forgot what game I was watching where someone did it. I think it was a Huk vs NEX??? on ladder, it's basically ling/muta, except you open ling/infestor like we are discussing here, grab your third, then get lots and lots of mutas and just keep those original infestor alive to make your ling/muta ball much stronger. As with ling/muta, protoss just laughs and a-moves to your base, defends with warp gate tech and stalker blink.
Against 3 gate sentry expands you go spling/bling/infestor.
Against 3 gate expand I open with ling speed then lair then +1 melee and hen drop a baneling nest and 2-3 spines and mass lings as I get lair. Like maaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssss. Lots of speedlings. And then its just a matter of when the Protoss moves out, bait FFs all the way to your base. They cant break their own Forcefields either so they have to wait or walk around. If they commit to an attack off 3 gates morph some banelings at your base and its pretty much collect win if you have done well kiting along the whole map.
The best thing about Spling/Infestor is it does not require high saturation very quickly. Lings are only 50 minerals and Infestors and upgrades take care of gas. A lot of games I am behind on workers for a long time in the early midgame - midgame and only catch up and pass around when I start Hive. Which is normally off of 3 bases and I take my 4th and/or 5th when I start Hive. Which is also around when +2 melee is half way done.
It feels really uncomfortable not droning like nuts at first but it works very well. Of course against FFE you can drone like nuts first which works out even better.
Another thing to watch out for against FFE is a stargate because thats standard to prevent your 3rd. So be sure to connect creep fast and have extra queens. (2 is usualy good, and then you have 3 bases with Queens and 1 for creep spread.)
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^ Actually in the Destiny vs Naniwa game where he won, on Tal Darim, its a 3 gate Expand into mass gate (6 gate?) pressure. If you watch the game, it all sounds very exciting when Destiny has 100 speedlings running into Naniwas base the second he moves out, but if you watch the production tab, he's been only making speedlings since he started lair, and he actually has less workers than Naniwa after all his lings are cleared out - which is after he kills a ton of probes and even Naniwa's main.
Just like in the first part of my post where I said make mass speedling against 3 gate expo, I think this also primarily capitalizes on an opponent making a mistake. But, it takes advantage of a crucial time when P can't scout (either he doesnt because he plans to 2 base mass gateway all-in basically, or doesnt have obs/hallu yet).
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i dont think OP means this to be the be all end all of ZvP so all the comments on this counter that blah blah are pointless. Theres a counter to everything thats just part of the game. This stands up fine to a standard protoss deathball. If the toss is doin something else obviously you should change tactics as well.
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Read all of it.
I had a game last night using a similar strategy. Just wanted to add that if larvae count is going down because of infinite stream of speedlings you're producing, don't be afraid to use offensive queens. Creep spread + tranfusing ultras is a deadly combo.
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I think your premise that roach/hydra is worthless is just inherently wrong. I use roach hydra+drops to good effect (ZvP is my best MU) at master league level. I also enjoy the heavy ling/bling style, but roach hydra can be done for sure.
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Did anyone see Destiny's games vs. Bomber (T)? He does exactly this, with a few variations here and there (a couple Mutas for harass, Ultras and Brood Lords depending on the situation, etc). Here's a cast of Game 1 (http://youtu.be/7xoE5LrIP2c) + Show Spoiler +where he's able to get back into the game after what should have been a death blow from Bomber just by massing lings and infestors
Warning: 40 minute epic
Anyways, this looks like an awesome build, and you can hear how absurdly cool Day9 thinks it is. Awesome post too.
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there are still alot of pro players that play with hydras and roaches and do really good against protoss i guess its al situational and there is just more then 1 working playstyle that works for this matchup
also hightemplar archon chargelot is pretty effective against this unit comp if controlled wel
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EPT
