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On May 11 2011 15:49 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups. No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done  Completely disagree with this. I found it easiest to defend as long as the cannons cover the buildings that form your wall while also covering eachother and are protected by buildings. There is no need to really cover the complete mineral line or have the nexus completely safe from roaches imo. You don't need to maynard alot of probes when your FE finishes and you put those few on the patches that are safe and soon after you'll have sentries/stalkers if needed. Having exposed cannons or cannons that don't cover your wall or eachother correctly is terrible against roaches and you have to chose between that or covering your entire mineral line. The only thing I question about the setups is why you don't prefer a full lock in when it's possible, it makes the build so much safer imo allowing you to cut cannons which pays for having to kill your own cyber eventually.
lol, that's bold of you to "completely" disagree with me about how to forge expand PvZ  I guess if you follow up your forge FE with mass gateway, then it may not be necessary to cover your nexus/entire mineral line. And even then, on a map like shattered where you will have to make 2 cannons initially in order to defend against lings, an early roach rush could cause you problems - it takes forever for a stalker to kill a roach.
If you're doing any other kind of build, especially stargate, you can't afford to be chronoing out stalkers/sentries from your early gateway(s). You'll need to rely on cannons for defense to cover your entire natural.
Regardless, defending against any kind of all in when you FFE in PvZ is dependent on scouting and seeing it coming. And if the zerg commits to an attack, you can literally make as many cannons as possible to stop it, and if you do stop it, you're way ahead. So why not just make it easy for yourself and cannon everywhere? Btw when I say make cannons on the other side of the nexus, you obviously don't make them out in the open... you still should be partially walling them off as you make additional buildings.
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You can build more than 1 pylon, you need tons of em anyway. I don't understand the point of this thread, honestly.
User was warned for this post
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Very neat discussion going on and cool images.
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There is no reason not to have coverage of your entire mineral line. Your just walling off and tossing cannons behind it...and the idea of 1 pylon for 2 gates/forge/multiple cannons is just fail.
you might feel cool you have awesome building placement. A nice micro zerg come in and sit just outside of cannon range and kill all your probes and start taking down your nexus with roach. Or they will fast tech to muta, and . They will come in and abuse you to death.
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Awesome post Jaeger, I really appreciate this. I've found that I misplace pylons a *lot* in this new patch... 
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On May 12 2011 01:01 purecarnagge wrote:
There is no reason not to have coverage of your entire mineral line. Your just walling off and tossing cannons behind it...and the idea of 1 pylon for 2 gates/forge/multiple cannons is just fail.
you might feel cool you have awesome building placement. A nice micro zerg come in and sit just outside of cannon range and kill all your probes and start taking down your nexus with roach. Or they will fast tech to muta, and . They will come in and abuse you to death.
What is a nice micro zerg? What leads you to believe you don't build multiple pylons? What do mutalisks have to do with forge fe simcity?
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On May 12 2011 04:23 Jaeger wrote:
What is a nice micro zerg? What leads you to believe you don't build multiple pylons? What do mutalisks have to do with forge fe simcity?
If you cant run around your bases Muta-Harass is way stronger as long as you don't have blink.
Especially because Archons are bigger than Stalkers =(
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1 pylon to rule them all, 1 pylon to power them.
new patch really mess with putting up cannons when mutas come. the radius is definitely noticeable.
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On May 11 2011 20:42 Kraelog wrote:
Assuming the Z isn't terribad, that scenario will go quite differently
Shattered Temple
14g/14p opening: 6 Zerglings hatch, chase away probe from main & natural and follow it back to P base (assuming they don't kill it). Lings on main ramp so you don't get inside with a probe & lings at xel'naga, natural, P ramp. Assuming 7RR there is a very small window before ling speed completes where a probe can scout the expo before getting killed. Nevertheless the Protoss suspects something is up and makes two more cannons (three in total). Roaches attack and the P can't scout this since slings deny any probe scouting. The attack arrives usually when there is 1 zealot 1 sentry and WP is 75%. Anything less than 3 cannons/2pylons will die 100% to the rush. You simply can't defend with gateway units since you don't have enough gateways and warpgate is not done.
A Roach rush will break a FFE very easily without very good building placement and a sufficient (4+) number of cannons.
P.S. You can also do the 7rr off 2hatch no queen, which also works fine.
2 hatch no queen roach rush is both slower and more easily scouted than the 1 hatch counter part.
There is no reason to build a zealot on shattered temple it's just going to slow down your build.
If they 14g/14p you scout as your gateway is nearly finished and again as your core is nearly finished before speed is finished.
Your pylon/forge scout should let you see
- 14g/14p
- if he takes guys off gas
Your gate scout should let you see
- No expansion means it is either a an economic cheese like a gold base or an all-in
Your core scout should let you see:
- Expansion cancelled means all-in
- No queen at ramp means all-in or fast 3rd hatchery
- No queen means all-in
- One queen means all-in or fast 3rd hatchery
- Roach warren means all-in
- More lings means all-in
- Lair and no guys on gas means overlord spine crawler push
- Lair and guys on gas means some kind of fast tech response likely nydus or hydra
If you scout a roach all-in throw down infinity cannons.
If you scout a possible roach all-in throw down infinity cannons and scout his 3rd cancel the cannons if you don't need them.
If you scout a lair get more gateways or tech quickly.
Essentially 2 probes with good timing and control can keep you safe from all-ins.
As Anihc says:
On May 11 2011 22:34 Anihc wrote:
if the zerg commits to an attack, you can literally make as many cannons as possible to stop it, and if you do stop it, you're way ahead..
And for the sake of completeness and because several people seem to be confused just because the screenshots show only 1 pylon doesn't mean you only build one pylon. Generally I build a second pylon right after my gateway and before my 2 gas and 2nd cannon. I'm not sure where people got the idea that your going to get to 6:30 and be in the middle of a roach attack with only one pylon.
P.S.
Roach all-ins also have almost nothing to do with simcity imo you just spam cannons and prevent him from running into your main with forcefields.
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This saves me so much work, thank you!
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Great post: you literally put images to what I was just thinking about a few minutes ago. I really appreciate your effort because the little time I have for SC2 right now goes into playing ladder, not practicing pylon placement in a FFE, which I was bad at before 1.3.3 and am probably worse at now cause of the pylon radius change. Much, much appreciated!
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Jaeger I <3 you. Now I can go kick Papa Smurf's ass :D
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Awesome post thanks much!
+ Show Spoiler +Now I just want a zerg to rush lair tech and make spine crawlers in front of my expansion so I can go o.O in my chair and be happy to lose. Nestea v Anypro... so epic.
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Most of these look really good, except for two: left on Metalopolis and bottom on Shattered Temple both expose the critical pylon to roach fire, which is prrroooooobably not a good idea.
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@Jaeger
Seriously, if you play against Z players that let you go scout with probes when they do an all-in there isn't much left to say....
And how the hell is a 2hatch no Queen RR more easily scoutable?
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On May 12 2011 17:43 Kraelog wrote:
@Jaeger
Seriously, if you play against Z players that let you go scout with probes when they do an all-in there isn't much left to say....
And how the hell is a 2hatch no Queen RR more easily scoutable?
I've played against most of the best zerg players on the NA server although aside from sheth they've just gone into macro games.
There's no queen to kill your probe. What good zerg builds don't have a queen? I only know of 2 hatch roach and 2 hatch baneling (ala july vs mvp) all-ins.
How does zerg stop 2 probes from scouting before speed?
Look my knowledge might be flawed. Maybe if they build 6 lings you have to build 4 cannons to play safe (seen kiwikaki build 4 blind cannons after pool hatch queen 2 lings and then gas and be completely fine in the midgame vs a macro zerg on xelnaga). Maybe you have to send 3 probes instead of 2.
I only know what I've learned from wins and losses thus far and I'll adjust my knowledge as I play more games.
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Nice post Jaeger. I too forge FE now versus zerg, almost regardless of map/spawn position. This gave me some ideas for a couple simcity builds.
Edit: You can hide probes for the purpose of hiding them and then click on the zerg minerals or ninja your way into their base. If you see no expansion its usually a good idea to put down mass cannons, or you are getting nydused.
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that is exactly what i was looking for after I miserably failed my building placement in a match yesterday!!! tnx man!!! favorited!!
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really nice work but metalo left is wrong, you don't expose your pylon to banelings like that, see post above mine
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jW2WS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ygp2z.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4Wvol.jpg)
