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Active: 734 users

Forge FE vs Zerg Simcity in 1.3.3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 02:27:37
May 11 2011 04:18 GMT
#1
With the pylon radius decrease in 1.3.3 most of my old building placement becomes invalid so I had to rework it all over the past few hours. Here's my results your mileage may vary.

Note this is not a discussion of whether to forge FE on these maps. Rather given that you are going to forge FE on these maps what is the best building placement you can come up with to help against early lings, middle pools, speedling runbys, baneling busts and to a lesser extent roach all-ins (you usually deal with those with a drastic number of cannons and simcity isn't as important).

I have a few general rules when looking for simcity:
  • I want to be able to place 2 cannons by the weakest part of the wall
  • I want to be able to leave my base without destroying buildings
  • I want to be able to move freely between the natural and main
  • I want to be able to easily block large speedling runbys with pulled probes or placing buildings
  • I want to be able to rally from my gateway to behind or in front of the wall
  • I want to minimize the number of buildings and pylons I have to place
  • I want to minimize interference with mining.
  • I want my placement to be readily repeatable


I also give strong preference to placements that let me safely build a gateway before a second cannon.

Metalopolis


Top:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon start flush to and centered below bottom mineral patch move left 3 to place

Left:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon start centered on bottom of ramp all squares green move left 5 to place

Bottom:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon start overlapping top mineral patch with top left square red rest green move right 2 to place

Right:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon start tucked between left-most mineral patches and move left 2 down 2 to place

old screens
+ Show Spoiler +

Top:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon start flush to and centered below bottom mineral patch move left 3 to place

Left:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon start centered on bottom of ramp all squares green move left 5 to place

Bottom:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon start overlapping top mineral patch with top left square red rest green move right 2 to place

Right:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon start tucked between left-most mineral patches and move left 2 down 2 to place


Shattered Temple


Top:
[image loading]
Notes: pylon flush below left edge of gas

Left:
[image loading]
Notes: start pylon overlapping gas bottom left square red rest green and move up 2

Bottom:
[image loading]
Notes: start pylon overlapping gas bottom left square red rest green and move right 5

Right:
[image loading]
Notes: start pylon overlapping gas top squares red bottom green and move down 6

Tal'Darim Altar


Top Left:
[image loading]

Bottom Left:
[image loading]

Bottom Right:
[image loading]

Top Right:
[image loading]

Notes: start pylon centered on corner of ramp, move pylon so power circle touches edge of ramp and wall

Scrap Station


Top:
[image loading]

Bottom:
[image loading]
Notes: place pylon cursor on the light, move left 2 down 2

Xel'Naga Caverns


Top:
[image loading]

Bottom:
[image loading]

Notes: place pylon flush with left edge of gas


Positional Imbalances

Note that some spawn positions are much easier to wall than others. Some difficult ones include Shattered Temple Left & Top and Metalopolis Left
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Darkness2k11
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Chile313 Posts
May 11 2011 04:25 GMT
#2
Wow this seems very nice, thanks for sharing ^.^
When Behind, Dark Shrine
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
May 11 2011 04:26 GMT
#3
On metalopolis Left, is your ramp fully blocked or is that where units go in and out?
CodeskyE
Profile Joined January 2011
United States777 Posts
May 11 2011 04:34 GMT
#4
Metalopolis Left, it's wide open for speedlings.
hiawatha
Profile Joined December 2010
United States120 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 04:36:57
May 11 2011 04:36 GMT
#5
CrumpetGuvnor
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia302 Posts
May 11 2011 04:52 GMT
#6
On May 11 2011 13:34 Codeskye wrote:
Metalopolis Left, it's wide open for speedlings.

That's just how some of the ramps look. I'm pretty sure that gap is only aesthetic. And I bet he has tested everything anyways
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 04:58:13
May 11 2011 04:54 GMT
#7
On May 11 2011 13:26 Keilah wrote:
On metalopolis Left, is your ramp fully blocked or is that where units go in and out?


meta ramp is blocked, just an optical illusion with the forge model and camera angle, if you rotate the camera in other locations it will often look open as well

[image loading]
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
holyhalo5
Profile Joined October 2009
United States187 Posts
May 11 2011 05:00 GMT
#8
You are goddamn awesome. Thanks so much!
I'm cold as iceeeee
covetousrat
Profile Joined October 2010
2109 Posts
May 11 2011 05:10 GMT
#9
Wow a perfect post. I was wondering how the new simcity looks like. Can I conclude this on
Metalopolis: Stick to Nexus
Xelnaga Caverns: Stick to Gas

for easier referencing.
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
May 11 2011 05:12 GMT
#10
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 05:20:19
May 11 2011 05:20 GMT
#11
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.

They're not actually there to protect mineral lines, just force a choke, so forcefields, and zealots are a lot more cost effective.
liftlift > tsm
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
May 11 2011 05:25 GMT
#12
On May 11 2011 14:20 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.

They're not actually there to protect mineral lines, just force a choke, so forcefields, and zealots are a lot more cost effective.

Gee thanks for telling me absolutely nothing helpful. If possible, I would prefer cannons to do that AND cover the mineral line.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10334 Posts
May 11 2011 05:26 GMT
#13
This is pretty epic, thanks!
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
CodeskyE
Profile Joined January 2011
United States777 Posts
May 11 2011 05:34 GMT
#14
On May 11 2011 14:25 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 14:20 wei2coolman wrote:
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.

They're not actually there to protect mineral lines, just force a choke, so forcefields, and zealots are a lot more cost effective.

Gee thanks for telling me absolutely nothing helpful. If possible, I would prefer cannons to do that AND cover the mineral line.



it's going to be harder to achieve that because of the pylon range nerf
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
May 11 2011 05:34 GMT
#15
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying so much

The purpose of cannons are to help against all-ins and runbys, you don't need all the mineral patches until you get over 2 per patch on the ones that are defended by cannons as well as having over 2 per patch in your main, by the time you reach that many probes you'll have some sentries as well.

Perhaps you're talking about the meta screen shots? You need to place another cannon on those to cover most of the patches, to prevent early ling harass its just not shown in those pictures because I was mostly doing this for myself and decided to post screens as an afterthought.

The second cannon at the front shown in most of those pictures is something you only build if you can't scout or if you scout more attacking units being built/no hatchery.

Generally against say a 14gas/14pool you can go forge nexus cannon gateway cannon where the second cannon covers your mineral line and completes around the same time as your nexus and just before ling speed.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
May 11 2011 05:45 GMT
#16
isn't it better to place your cannons 1 square back from your 3x3 buildings rather than flush with them? By placing them back just one square you reduce the number of roaches that can fire on the cannon while still being able to fire on roaches targeting the wall.
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
May 11 2011 05:51 GMT
#17
On May 11 2011 14:45 Keilah wrote:
isn't it better to place your cannons 1 square back from your 3x3 buildings rather than flush with them? By placing them back just one square you reduce the number of roaches that can fire on the cannon while still being able to fire on roaches targeting the wall.


If you do that the roaches can shoot your 3x3 buildings straight on without cannons being able to shoot at them
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
May 11 2011 05:56 GMT
#18
On May 11 2011 14:51 Jaeger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 14:45 Keilah wrote:
isn't it better to place your cannons 1 square back from your 3x3 buildings rather than flush with them? By placing them back just one square you reduce the number of roaches that can fire on the cannon while still being able to fire on roaches targeting the wall.


If you do that the roaches can shoot your 3x3 buildings straight on without cannons being able to shoot at them


hum, I think you're correct... Why, then, do I still see the pros use the placement I mentioned? For example, KiwiKaki vs Idra Game 2 in the IPL grand final recently.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
May 11 2011 06:05 GMT
#19
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.


No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
May 11 2011 06:12 GMT
#20
On May 11 2011 14:56 Keilah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 14:51 Jaeger wrote:
On May 11 2011 14:45 Keilah wrote:
isn't it better to place your cannons 1 square back from your 3x3 buildings rather than flush with them? By placing them back just one square you reduce the number of roaches that can fire on the cannon while still being able to fire on roaches targeting the wall.


If you do that the roaches can shoot your 3x3 buildings straight on without cannons being able to shoot at them


hum, I think you're correct... Why, then, do I still see the pros use the placement I mentioned? For example, KiwiKaki vs Idra Game 2 in the IPL grand final recently.


His first cannon was flush with his forge

[image loading]

Additional cannons are usually harder to fit in but I think his second cannon was just poorly placed which led to his front getting busted.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
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