• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:29
CEST 00:29
KST 07:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder0EWC 2025 - Replay Pack1Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced25BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time EWC 2025 - Replay Pack Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 842 users

Forge FE vs Zerg Simcity in 1.3.3 - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
May 11 2011 06:31 GMT
#21
On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.


No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done


This exactly and thanks

For fun:

[image loading]

[image loading]
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Kraelog
Profile Joined April 2010
Belgium194 Posts
May 11 2011 06:44 GMT
#22
On a number of maps the Pylon powering the cannons is very vulnerable to any early Z attack. At the very least Z should have to kill 1 building before attacking the critical pylon.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
May 11 2011 06:49 GMT
#23
On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.


No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done


Completely disagree with this. I found it easiest to defend as long as the cannons cover the buildings that form your wall while also covering eachother and are protected by buildings. There is no need to really cover the complete mineral line or have the nexus completely safe from roaches imo. You don't need to maynard alot of probes when your FE finishes and you put those few on the patches that are safe and soon after you'll have sentries/stalkers if needed.
Having exposed cannons or cannons that don't cover your wall or eachother correctly is terrible against roaches and you have to chose between that or covering your entire mineral line.

The only thing I question about the setups is why you don't prefer a full lock in when it's possible, it makes the build so much safer imo allowing you to cut cannons which pays for having to kill your own cyber eventually.
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
May 11 2011 07:03 GMT
#24
On May 11 2011 15:49 Markwerf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.


No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done


Completely disagree with this. I found it easiest to defend as long as the cannons cover the buildings that form your wall while also covering eachother and are protected by buildings. There is no need to really cover the complete mineral line or have the nexus completely safe from roaches imo. You don't need to maynard alot of probes when your FE finishes and you put those few on the patches that are safe and soon after you'll have sentries/stalkers if needed.
Having exposed cannons or cannons that don't cover your wall or eachother correctly is terrible against roaches and you have to chose between that or covering your entire mineral line.

The only thing I question about the setups is why you don't prefer a full lock in when it's possible, it makes the build so much safer imo allowing you to cut cannons which pays for having to kill your own cyber eventually.


You only need 2 cannons on most of these maps to be safe and then add cannons as needed based on good scouting.

The cannon that covers your mineral line isn't for roaches but rather for early ling harass on your natural's workers and to cover the first cannon to prevent 8 lings from making it to the cannon sniping it after speed finishes at ~5:10 or the first larva inject worth of speed lings gets to your base at ~5:30.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Tictock
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States6052 Posts
May 11 2011 07:09 GMT
#25
While I commend your efforts into compiling this as well as all the work put into making pretty neat wall-offs, I'm not sure I get the point of this.

I mean, in general you do not want to rely on wall-offs based on one pylon. Obviously you can just add pylons to these and be more secure, but most of them are pretty tight and don't offer a lot of room to work with. Maybe it's just me though, I can't say I'm any expert.

All in all the Pylon change feels fine to me, only had a few hours to mess with it today though. Doesn't particularly feel like there's much difference in terms of space to build in, which was exactly the point wasn't it? The change was geared towards the warp-in on high ground options which was proving too powerful in some rushes.

Again though, nice work on this.
I can take that responsibility.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
May 11 2011 07:12 GMT
#26
On May 11 2011 16:03 Jaeger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 15:49 Markwerf wrote:
On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:
On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.


No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done


Completely disagree with this. I found it easiest to defend as long as the cannons cover the buildings that form your wall while also covering eachother and are protected by buildings. There is no need to really cover the complete mineral line or have the nexus completely safe from roaches imo. You don't need to maynard alot of probes when your FE finishes and you put those few on the patches that are safe and soon after you'll have sentries/stalkers if needed.
Having exposed cannons or cannons that don't cover your wall or eachother correctly is terrible against roaches and you have to chose between that or covering your entire mineral line.

The only thing I question about the setups is why you don't prefer a full lock in when it's possible, it makes the build so much safer imo allowing you to cut cannons which pays for having to kill your own cyber eventually.


You only need 2 cannons on most of these maps to be safe and then add cannons as needed based on good scouting.

The cannon that covers your mineral line isn't for roaches but rather for early ling harass on your natural's workers and to cover the first cannon to prevent 8 lings from making it to the cannon sniping it after speed finishes at ~5:10 or the first larva inject worth of speed lings gets to your base at ~5:30.


Well I generally FE with just 1 cannon making only more if i see pressure. On maps like xel naga and metalopolis you might need more against lings but personally i think those are atrocious maps to FFE on anyway. A good roach/ling attack simply can't be held on xel naga and close metalopolis spawns.
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
May 11 2011 07:14 GMT
#27
On May 11 2011 15:44 Kraelog wrote:
On a number of maps the Pylon powering the cannons is very vulnerable to any early Z attack. At the very least Z should have to kill 1 building before attacking the critical pylon.


Which ones are you talking about?

The ones with shown exposed pylons I saw are meta left and shattered right and bottom all of which are easily coverable by placing the core there.

Note the core shown in meta left is completely haphazardly placed and severs almost no purpose in that location, it just constricts a bit of space heading up towards the ramp. It's better placed covering that pylon.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
human_ko
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation676 Posts
May 11 2011 07:19 GMT
#28
great thread! I will train some forge expos more now
WOrd, yo.
J-Dragon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States43 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 07:25:22
May 11 2011 07:23 GMT
#29
aha reminds me of the bw forge fe thread! can't wait to see what people post in here.

btw spoilers are useful things
Kraelog
Profile Joined April 2010
Belgium194 Posts
May 11 2011 08:03 GMT
#30
On May 11 2011 16:14 Jaeger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 15:44 Kraelog wrote:
On a number of maps the Pylon powering the cannons is very vulnerable to any early Z attack. At the very least Z should have to kill 1 building before attacking the critical pylon.


Which ones are you talking about?

The ones with shown exposed pylons I saw are meta left and shattered right and bottom all of which are easily coverable by placing the core there.

Note the core shown in meta left is completely haphazardly placed and severs almost no purpose in that location, it just constricts a bit of space heading up towards the ramp. It's better placed covering that pylon.


Well those are the ones i mean :D. You can walloff with the Core but i'm pretty sure that would mean it can be sniped by roaches.

But basically trying to make a walloff with only one pylon really doesn't cut it in my opinion. As a Zerg I can't really think of any better target for an early game rush. Perhaps it's better to design a FE walloff around 2-3 pylons?
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 08:24:23
May 11 2011 08:22 GMT
#31
This is an amazing post.

Regarding positioning cannons to defend against roaches...

this is a bit of a moot point. Cannons should only be PART of your defense against attempted roach busts, you need some stalkers and sentries as well, if you're trying to rely solely on cannons its only going to end in tears.
Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
Amarkov
Profile Joined December 2010
United States131 Posts
May 11 2011 08:42 GMT
#32
What? You aren't going to have stalkers and sentries out in time for early roach busts...
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
May 11 2011 08:46 GMT
#33
On May 11 2011 17:42 Amarkov wrote:
What? You aren't going to have stalkers and sentries out in time for early roach busts...


If they're roach rushing that is a different story and you really shouldn't be caught totally by surprise.
Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
Amarkov
Profile Joined December 2010
United States131 Posts
May 11 2011 08:49 GMT
#34
Again, what? Roach all-ins as a response to forge FE aren't the most uncommon thing in the world, and you won't be able to scout one until the roaches pop.
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
May 11 2011 08:53 GMT
#35
On May 11 2011 17:49 Amarkov wrote:
Again, what? Roach all-ins as a response to forge FE aren't the most uncommon thing in the world, and you won't be able to scout one until the roaches pop.


And again, I'm saying if you're relying solely on cannons to defend, you're going to have a hard time. You can construct your wall so that it is strong, but no wall is impregnable vs a roach attack regardless of positioning, eventually they will find a spot where they can hit your buildings, and you need a couple of stalkers. Even one stalker is often enough to discourage them from committing to breaking you.

Cannons just never seem to work very well for me against attempted roach breaks, so I try to get some gas units (sentries and stalkers) as quickly as possible, and keep my scouting probe alive as long as possible to check for expansions.

it is entirely possible, however, that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong with my own cannon placement that causes me to not have as much success with pure cannon defense.
Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
Amarkov
Profile Joined December 2010
United States131 Posts
May 11 2011 08:59 GMT
#36
Against certain timings, you need to have a pure cannon defense because stalkers just don't come out fast enough. Remember, you only need to hold until stalkers do pop; if you have 2 cannons covering most of the attackable area, you should do fine.
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 09:58:37
May 11 2011 09:54 GMT
#37
On May 11 2011 17:59 Amarkov wrote:
Against certain timings, you need to have a pure cannon defense because stalkers just don't come out fast enough. Remember, you only need to hold until stalkers do pop; if you have 2 cannons covering most of the attackable area, you should do fine.


It's difficult to tell you exactly how to counter roach attacks without a specific zerg build. The general principle is if they are on one hatch you can make infinity cannons.

If for instance a zerg does a 1base roach speedling play after say 14gas/14pool on xel naga they can get ~6 roaches right about 5:10 right as speed is finishing, just before your core should be finishing. Since he doesn't have speed yet you can easily scout his natural and see no expansion and pop right up into his main ramp and see roaches at the front. You should be even more suspicious as you scouted no expansion right as your gateway was finishing up. After confirming roaches you have around a 50 second rush time for the roaches to get to your natural plenty of time to throw up several more cannons and chrono boost out a sentry or a stalker. You can fully cut workers during this phase as you're going to be ahead something like 6ish already and have a second nexus to produce more very quickly after your don't die. His first big batch of speedling reinforcements will arrive at around 6:20. By then you'll have all of your additional cannons and 1-2 gateway units out.

You can basically prevent them from doing any serious damage or running into your main with cannons/forcefields/and probes if necessary and you end up way ahead.

If he does something like a fake hatchery into 1base speedling roach its going to delay the roach timing about 30-40 seconds.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Kraelog
Profile Joined April 2010
Belgium194 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 11:56:16
May 11 2011 11:42 GMT
#38
Assuming the Z isn't terribad, that scenario will go quite differently

Shattered Temple

14g/14p opening: 6 Zerglings hatch, chase away probe from main & natural and follow it back to P base (assuming they don't kill it). Lings on main ramp so you don't get inside with a probe & lings at xel'naga, natural, P ramp. Assuming 7RR there is a very small window before ling speed completes where a probe can scout the expo before getting killed. Nevertheless the Protoss suspects something is up and makes two more cannons (three in total). Roaches attack and the P can't scout this since slings deny any probe scouting. The attack arrives usually when there is 1 zealot 1 sentry and WP is 75%. Anything less than 3 cannons/2pylons will die 100% to the rush. You simply can't defend with gateway units since you don't have enough gateways and warpgate is not done.

A Roach rush will break a FFE very easily without very good building placement and a sufficient (4+) number of cannons.

P.S. You can also do the 7rr off 2hatch no queen, which also works fine.
ODKStevez
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland1225 Posts
May 11 2011 11:52 GMT
#39
A very interesting thread. I was always wondering why they decreased the pylon power radius. I thought it was to make it so you can't warp in over ledges like on Delta.
Luppa <3
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
May 11 2011 12:10 GMT
#40
On May 11 2011 20:52 ODKStevez wrote:
A very interesting thread. I was always wondering why they decreased the pylon power radius. I thought it was to make it so you can't warp in over ledges like on Delta.


Before you could put a pylon below the ramp in PvP and warp in units on the top. You can still do tht but now at least your stalkers can hit the pylon.
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 4
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Reynor vs ClemLIVE!
RotterdaM2678
ComeBackTV 2360
IndyStarCraft 581
WardiTV533
CranKy Ducklings193
3DClanTV 175
EnkiAlexander 160
Rex75
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2678
IndyStarCraft 581
Rex 75
JuggernautJason65
StarCraft: Brood War
NaDa 39
MaD[AoV]1
Dota 2
capcasts247
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Grubby3708
JimRising 535
febbydoto13
Counter-Strike
fl0m2818
Fnx 2511
Stewie2K698
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox2135
Mew2King1381
AZ_Axe443
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu509
Khaldor242
Other Games
tarik_tv22683
summit1g10368
gofns8680
flusha348
ToD133
Maynarde57
Sick54
ROOTCatZ15
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3327
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta32
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota23123
League of Legends
• Doublelift5095
Other Games
• Scarra1842
• imaqtpie1559
• Shiphtur347
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
12h 31m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 11h
WardiTV European League
1d 17h
Online Event
1d 19h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.