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Wow this seems very nice, thanks for sharing ^.^
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On metalopolis Left, is your ramp fully blocked or is that where units go in and out?
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Metalopolis Left, it's wide open for speedlings.
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On May 11 2011 13:34 Codeskye wrote:
Metalopolis Left, it's wide open for speedlings.
That's just how some of the ramps look. I'm pretty sure that gap is only aesthetic. And I bet he has tested everything anyways
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On May 11 2011 13:26 Keilah wrote:
On metalopolis Left, is your ramp fully blocked or is that where units go in and out?
meta ramp is blocked, just an optical illusion with the forge model and camera angle, if you rotate the camera in other locations it will often look open as well
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F6FxA.jpg)
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You are goddamn awesome. Thanks so much!
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Wow a perfect post. I was wondering how the new simcity looks like. Can I conclude this on
Metalopolis: Stick to Nexus
Xelnaga Caverns: Stick to Gas
for easier referencing.
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I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.
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On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.
They're not actually there to protect mineral lines, just force a choke, so forcefields, and zealots are a lot more cost effective.
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On May 11 2011 14:20 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups. They're not actually there to protect mineral lines, just force a choke, so forcefields, and zealots are a lot more cost effective.
Gee thanks for telling me absolutely nothing helpful. If possible, I would prefer cannons to do that AND cover the mineral line.
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This is pretty epic, thanks!
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On May 11 2011 14:25 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 14:20 wei2coolman wrote:On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups. They're not actually there to protect mineral lines, just force a choke, so forcefields, and zealots are a lot more cost effective. Gee thanks for telling me absolutely nothing helpful. If possible, I would prefer cannons to do that AND cover the mineral line.
it's going to be harder to achieve that because of the pylon range nerf 
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On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying so much
The purpose of cannons are to help against all-ins and runbys, you don't need all the mineral patches until you get over 2 per patch on the ones that are defended by cannons as well as having over 2 per patch in your main, by the time you reach that many probes you'll have some sentries as well.
Perhaps you're talking about the meta screen shots? You need to place another cannon on those to cover most of the patches, to prevent early ling harass its just not shown in those pictures because I was mostly doing this for myself and decided to post screens as an afterthought.
The second cannon at the front shown in most of those pictures is something you only build if you can't scout or if you scout more attacking units being built/no hatchery.
Generally against say a 14gas/14pool you can go forge nexus cannon gateway cannon where the second cannon covers your mineral line and completes around the same time as your nexus and just before ling speed.
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isn't it better to place your cannons 1 square back from your 3x3 buildings rather than flush with them? By placing them back just one square you reduce the number of roaches that can fire on the cannon while still being able to fire on roaches targeting the wall.
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On May 11 2011 14:45 Keilah wrote:
isn't it better to place your cannons 1 square back from your 3x3 buildings rather than flush with them? By placing them back just one square you reduce the number of roaches that can fire on the cannon while still being able to fire on roaches targeting the wall.
If you do that the roaches can shoot your 3x3 buildings straight on without cannons being able to shoot at them
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On May 11 2011 14:51 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 14:45 Keilah wrote:
isn't it better to place your cannons 1 square back from your 3x3 buildings rather than flush with them? By placing them back just one square you reduce the number of roaches that can fire on the cannon while still being able to fire on roaches targeting the wall. If you do that the roaches can shoot your 3x3 buildings straight on without cannons being able to shoot at them
hum, I think you're correct... Why, then, do I still see the pros use the placement I mentioned? For example, KiwiKaki vs Idra Game 2 in the IPL grand final recently.
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On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups.
No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done 
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On May 11 2011 14:56 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 14:51 Jaeger wrote:On May 11 2011 14:45 Keilah wrote:
isn't it better to place your cannons 1 square back from your 3x3 buildings rather than flush with them? By placing them back just one square you reduce the number of roaches that can fire on the cannon while still being able to fire on roaches targeting the wall. If you do that the roaches can shoot your 3x3 buildings straight on without cannons being able to shoot at them hum, I think you're correct... Why, then, do I still see the pros use the placement I mentioned? For example, KiwiKaki vs Idra Game 2 in the IPL grand final recently.
His first cannon was flush with his forge
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uANex.jpg)
Additional cannons are usually harder to fit in but I think his second cannon was just poorly placed which led to his front getting busted.
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On a number of maps the Pylon powering the cannons is very vulnerable to any early Z attack. At the very least Z should have to kill 1 building before attacking the critical pylon.
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On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups. No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done
Completely disagree with this. I found it easiest to defend as long as the cannons cover the buildings that form your wall while also covering eachother and are protected by buildings. There is no need to really cover the complete mineral line or have the nexus completely safe from roaches imo. You don't need to maynard alot of probes when your FE finishes and you put those few on the patches that are safe and soon after you'll have sentries/stalkers if needed.
Having exposed cannons or cannons that don't cover your wall or eachother correctly is terrible against roaches and you have to chose between that or covering your entire mineral line.
The only thing I question about the setups is why you don't prefer a full lock in when it's possible, it makes the build so much safer imo allowing you to cut cannons which pays for having to kill your own cyber eventually.
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On May 11 2011 15:49 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups. No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done Completely disagree with this. I found it easiest to defend as long as the cannons cover the buildings that form your wall while also covering eachother and are protected by buildings. There is no need to really cover the complete mineral line or have the nexus completely safe from roaches imo. You don't need to maynard alot of probes when your FE finishes and you put those few on the patches that are safe and soon after you'll have sentries/stalkers if needed. Having exposed cannons or cannons that don't cover your wall or eachother correctly is terrible against roaches and you have to chose between that or covering your entire mineral line. The only thing I question about the setups is why you don't prefer a full lock in when it's possible, it makes the build so much safer imo allowing you to cut cannons which pays for having to kill your own cyber eventually.
You only need 2 cannons on most of these maps to be safe and then add cannons as needed based on good scouting.
The cannon that covers your mineral line isn't for roaches but rather for early ling harass on your natural's workers and to cover the first cannon to prevent 8 lings from making it to the cannon sniping it after speed finishes at ~5:10 or the first larva inject worth of speed lings gets to your base at ~5:30.
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While I commend your efforts into compiling this as well as all the work put into making pretty neat wall-offs, I'm not sure I get the point of this.
I mean, in general you do not want to rely on wall-offs based on one pylon. Obviously you can just add pylons to these and be more secure, but most of them are pretty tight and don't offer a lot of room to work with. Maybe it's just me though, I can't say I'm any expert.
All in all the Pylon change feels fine to me, only had a few hours to mess with it today though. Doesn't particularly feel like there's much difference in terms of space to build in, which was exactly the point wasn't it? The change was geared towards the warp-in on high ground options which was proving too powerful in some rushes.
Again though, nice work on this.
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On May 11 2011 16:03 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 15:49 Markwerf wrote:On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups. No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done Completely disagree with this. I found it easiest to defend as long as the cannons cover the buildings that form your wall while also covering eachother and are protected by buildings. There is no need to really cover the complete mineral line or have the nexus completely safe from roaches imo. You don't need to maynard alot of probes when your FE finishes and you put those few on the patches that are safe and soon after you'll have sentries/stalkers if needed. Having exposed cannons or cannons that don't cover your wall or eachother correctly is terrible against roaches and you have to chose between that or covering your entire mineral line. The only thing I question about the setups is why you don't prefer a full lock in when it's possible, it makes the build so much safer imo allowing you to cut cannons which pays for having to kill your own cyber eventually. You only need 2 cannons on most of these maps to be safe and then add cannons as needed based on good scouting. The cannon that covers your mineral line isn't for roaches but rather for early ling harass on your natural's workers and to cover the first cannon to prevent 8 lings from making it to the cannon sniping it after speed finishes at ~5:10 or the first larva inject worth of speed lings gets to your base at ~5:30.
Well I generally FE with just 1 cannon making only more if i see pressure. On maps like xel naga and metalopolis you might need more against lings but personally i think those are atrocious maps to FFE on anyway. A good roach/ling attack simply can't be held on xel naga and close metalopolis spawns.
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On May 11 2011 15:44 Kraelog wrote:
On a number of maps the Pylon powering the cannons is very vulnerable to any early Z attack. At the very least Z should have to kill 1 building before attacking the critical pylon.
Which ones are you talking about?
The ones with shown exposed pylons I saw are meta left and shattered right and bottom all of which are easily coverable by placing the core there.
Note the core shown in meta left is completely haphazardly placed and severs almost no purpose in that location, it just constricts a bit of space heading up towards the ramp. It's better placed covering that pylon.
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Russian Federation676 Posts
great thread! I will train some forge expos more now
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aha reminds me of the bw forge fe thread! can't wait to see what people post in here.
btw spoilers are useful things
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On May 11 2011 16:14 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 15:44 Kraelog wrote:
On a number of maps the Pylon powering the cannons is very vulnerable to any early Z attack. At the very least Z should have to kill 1 building before attacking the critical pylon.
Which ones are you talking about? The ones with shown exposed pylons I saw are meta left and shattered right and bottom all of which are easily coverable by placing the core there. Note the core shown in meta left is completely haphazardly placed and severs almost no purpose in that location, it just constricts a bit of space heading up towards the ramp. It's better placed covering that pylon.
Well those are the ones i mean :D. You can walloff with the Core but i'm pretty sure that would mean it can be sniped by roaches.
But basically trying to make a walloff with only one pylon really doesn't cut it in my opinion. As a Zerg I can't really think of any better target for an early game rush. Perhaps it's better to design a FE walloff around 2-3 pylons?
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This is an amazing post.
Regarding positioning cannons to defend against roaches...
this is a bit of a moot point. Cannons should only be PART of your defense against attempted roach busts, you need some stalkers and sentries as well, if you're trying to rely solely on cannons its only going to end in tears.
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What? You aren't going to have stalkers and sentries out in time for early roach busts...
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On May 11 2011 17:42 Amarkov wrote:
What? You aren't going to have stalkers and sentries out in time for early roach busts...
If they're roach rushing that is a different story and you really shouldn't be caught totally by surprise.
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Again, what? Roach all-ins as a response to forge FE aren't the most uncommon thing in the world, and you won't be able to scout one until the roaches pop.
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On May 11 2011 17:49 Amarkov wrote:
Again, what? Roach all-ins as a response to forge FE aren't the most uncommon thing in the world, and you won't be able to scout one until the roaches pop.
And again, I'm saying if you're relying solely on cannons to defend, you're going to have a hard time. You can construct your wall so that it is strong, but no wall is impregnable vs a roach attack regardless of positioning, eventually they will find a spot where they can hit your buildings, and you need a couple of stalkers. Even one stalker is often enough to discourage them from committing to breaking you.
Cannons just never seem to work very well for me against attempted roach breaks, so I try to get some gas units (sentries and stalkers) as quickly as possible, and keep my scouting probe alive as long as possible to check for expansions.
it is entirely possible, however, that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong with my own cannon placement that causes me to not have as much success with pure cannon defense.
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Against certain timings, you need to have a pure cannon defense because stalkers just don't come out fast enough. Remember, you only need to hold until stalkers do pop; if you have 2 cannons covering most of the attackable area, you should do fine.
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On May 11 2011 17:59 Amarkov wrote:
Against certain timings, you need to have a pure cannon defense because stalkers just don't come out fast enough. Remember, you only need to hold until stalkers do pop; if you have 2 cannons covering most of the attackable area, you should do fine.
It's difficult to tell you exactly how to counter roach attacks without a specific zerg build. The general principle is if they are on one hatch you can make infinity cannons.
If for instance a zerg does a 1base roach speedling play after say 14gas/14pool on xel naga they can get ~6 roaches right about 5:10 right as speed is finishing, just before your core should be finishing. Since he doesn't have speed yet you can easily scout his natural and see no expansion and pop right up into his main ramp and see roaches at the front. You should be even more suspicious as you scouted no expansion right as your gateway was finishing up. After confirming roaches you have around a 50 second rush time for the roaches to get to your natural plenty of time to throw up several more cannons and chrono boost out a sentry or a stalker. You can fully cut workers during this phase as you're going to be ahead something like 6ish already and have a second nexus to produce more very quickly after your don't die. His first big batch of speedling reinforcements will arrive at around 6:20. By then you'll have all of your additional cannons and 1-2 gateway units out.
You can basically prevent them from doing any serious damage or running into your main with cannons/forcefields/and probes if necessary and you end up way ahead.
If he does something like a fake hatchery into 1base speedling roach its going to delay the roach timing about 30-40 seconds.
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Assuming the Z isn't terribad, that scenario will go quite differently
Shattered Temple
14g/14p opening: 6 Zerglings hatch, chase away probe from main & natural and follow it back to P base (assuming they don't kill it). Lings on main ramp so you don't get inside with a probe & lings at xel'naga, natural, P ramp. Assuming 7RR there is a very small window before ling speed completes where a probe can scout the expo before getting killed. Nevertheless the Protoss suspects something is up and makes two more cannons (three in total). Roaches attack and the P can't scout this since slings deny any probe scouting. The attack arrives usually when there is 1 zealot 1 sentry and WP is 75%. Anything less than 3 cannons/2pylons will die 100% to the rush. You simply can't defend with gateway units since you don't have enough gateways and warpgate is not done.
A Roach rush will break a FFE very easily without very good building placement and a sufficient (4+) number of cannons.
P.S. You can also do the 7rr off 2hatch no queen, which also works fine.
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A very interesting thread. I was always wondering why they decreased the pylon power radius. I thought it was to make it so you can't warp in over ledges like on Delta.
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On May 11 2011 20:52 ODKStevez wrote:
A very interesting thread. I was always wondering why they decreased the pylon power radius. I thought it was to make it so you can't warp in over ledges like on Delta.
Before you could put a pylon below the ramp in PvP and warp in units on the top. You can still do tht but now at least your stalkers can hit the pylon.
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On May 11 2011 15:49 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 15:05 Anihc wrote:On May 11 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
I might be just being over critical, but a lot of those don't have cannons covering the whole probe line, and are ganna be pretty bad setups. No, I agree with you. The pics are a bit deceiving since you should be making cannons on the other side of the nexus on maps like shattered/xel naga/metal as well. But the general formation for pylon/gate/forge/nexus wall is pretty awesome. Job well done Completely disagree with this. I found it easiest to defend as long as the cannons cover the buildings that form your wall while also covering eachother and are protected by buildings. There is no need to really cover the complete mineral line or have the nexus completely safe from roaches imo. You don't need to maynard alot of probes when your FE finishes and you put those few on the patches that are safe and soon after you'll have sentries/stalkers if needed. Having exposed cannons or cannons that don't cover your wall or eachother correctly is terrible against roaches and you have to chose between that or covering your entire mineral line. The only thing I question about the setups is why you don't prefer a full lock in when it's possible, it makes the build so much safer imo allowing you to cut cannons which pays for having to kill your own cyber eventually.
lol, that's bold of you to "completely" disagree with me about how to forge expand PvZ  I guess if you follow up your forge FE with mass gateway, then it may not be necessary to cover your nexus/entire mineral line. And even then, on a map like shattered where you will have to make 2 cannons initially in order to defend against lings, an early roach rush could cause you problems - it takes forever for a stalker to kill a roach.
If you're doing any other kind of build, especially stargate, you can't afford to be chronoing out stalkers/sentries from your early gateway(s). You'll need to rely on cannons for defense to cover your entire natural.
Regardless, defending against any kind of all in when you FFE in PvZ is dependent on scouting and seeing it coming. And if the zerg commits to an attack, you can literally make as many cannons as possible to stop it, and if you do stop it, you're way ahead. So why not just make it easy for yourself and cannon everywhere? Btw when I say make cannons on the other side of the nexus, you obviously don't make them out in the open... you still should be partially walling them off as you make additional buildings.
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You can build more than 1 pylon, you need tons of em anyway. I don't understand the point of this thread, honestly.
User was warned for this post
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Very neat discussion going on and cool images.
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There is no reason not to have coverage of your entire mineral line. Your just walling off and tossing cannons behind it...and the idea of 1 pylon for 2 gates/forge/multiple cannons is just fail.
you might feel cool you have awesome building placement. A nice micro zerg come in and sit just outside of cannon range and kill all your probes and start taking down your nexus with roach. Or they will fast tech to muta, and . They will come in and abuse you to death.
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Awesome post Jaeger, I really appreciate this. I've found that I misplace pylons a *lot* in this new patch...
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On May 12 2011 01:01 purecarnagge wrote:
There is no reason not to have coverage of your entire mineral line. Your just walling off and tossing cannons behind it...and the idea of 1 pylon for 2 gates/forge/multiple cannons is just fail.
you might feel cool you have awesome building placement. A nice micro zerg come in and sit just outside of cannon range and kill all your probes and start taking down your nexus with roach. Or they will fast tech to muta, and . They will come in and abuse you to death.
What is a nice micro zerg? What leads you to believe you don't build multiple pylons? What do mutalisks have to do with forge fe simcity?
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On May 12 2011 04:23 Jaeger wrote:
What is a nice micro zerg? What leads you to believe you don't build multiple pylons? What do mutalisks have to do with forge fe simcity?
If you cant run around your bases Muta-Harass is way stronger as long as you don't have blink.
Especially because Archons are bigger than Stalkers =(
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1 pylon to rule them all, 1 pylon to power them.
new patch really mess with putting up cannons when mutas come. the radius is definitely noticeable.
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On May 11 2011 20:42 Kraelog wrote:
Assuming the Z isn't terribad, that scenario will go quite differently
Shattered Temple
14g/14p opening: 6 Zerglings hatch, chase away probe from main & natural and follow it back to P base (assuming they don't kill it). Lings on main ramp so you don't get inside with a probe & lings at xel'naga, natural, P ramp. Assuming 7RR there is a very small window before ling speed completes where a probe can scout the expo before getting killed. Nevertheless the Protoss suspects something is up and makes two more cannons (three in total). Roaches attack and the P can't scout this since slings deny any probe scouting. The attack arrives usually when there is 1 zealot 1 sentry and WP is 75%. Anything less than 3 cannons/2pylons will die 100% to the rush. You simply can't defend with gateway units since you don't have enough gateways and warpgate is not done.
A Roach rush will break a FFE very easily without very good building placement and a sufficient (4+) number of cannons.
P.S. You can also do the 7rr off 2hatch no queen, which also works fine.
2 hatch no queen roach rush is both slower and more easily scouted than the 1 hatch counter part.
There is no reason to build a zealot on shattered temple it's just going to slow down your build.
If they 14g/14p you scout as your gateway is nearly finished and again as your core is nearly finished before speed is finished.
Your pylon/forge scout should let you see
- 14g/14p
- if he takes guys off gas
Your gate scout should let you see
- No expansion means it is either a an economic cheese like a gold base or an all-in
Your core scout should let you see:
- Expansion cancelled means all-in
- No queen at ramp means all-in or fast 3rd hatchery
- No queen means all-in
- One queen means all-in or fast 3rd hatchery
- Roach warren means all-in
- More lings means all-in
- Lair and no guys on gas means overlord spine crawler push
- Lair and guys on gas means some kind of fast tech response likely nydus or hydra
If you scout a roach all-in throw down infinity cannons.
If you scout a possible roach all-in throw down infinity cannons and scout his 3rd cancel the cannons if you don't need them.
If you scout a lair get more gateways or tech quickly.
Essentially 2 probes with good timing and control can keep you safe from all-ins.
As Anihc says:
On May 11 2011 22:34 Anihc wrote:
if the zerg commits to an attack, you can literally make as many cannons as possible to stop it, and if you do stop it, you're way ahead..
And for the sake of completeness and because several people seem to be confused just because the screenshots show only 1 pylon doesn't mean you only build one pylon. Generally I build a second pylon right after my gateway and before my 2 gas and 2nd cannon. I'm not sure where people got the idea that your going to get to 6:30 and be in the middle of a roach attack with only one pylon.
P.S.
Roach all-ins also have almost nothing to do with simcity imo you just spam cannons and prevent him from running into your main with forcefields.
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This saves me so much work, thank you!
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Great post: you literally put images to what I was just thinking about a few minutes ago. I really appreciate your effort because the little time I have for SC2 right now goes into playing ladder, not practicing pylon placement in a FFE, which I was bad at before 1.3.3 and am probably worse at now cause of the pylon radius change. Much, much appreciated!
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Jaeger I <3 you. Now I can go kick Papa Smurf's ass :D
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Awesome post thanks much!
+ Show Spoiler +Now I just want a zerg to rush lair tech and make spine crawlers in front of my expansion so I can go o.O in my chair and be happy to lose. Nestea v Anypro... so epic.
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Most of these look really good, except for two: left on Metalopolis and bottom on Shattered Temple both expose the critical pylon to roach fire, which is prrroooooobably not a good idea.
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@Jaeger
Seriously, if you play against Z players that let you go scout with probes when they do an all-in there isn't much left to say....
And how the hell is a 2hatch no Queen RR more easily scoutable?
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On May 12 2011 17:43 Kraelog wrote:
@Jaeger
Seriously, if you play against Z players that let you go scout with probes when they do an all-in there isn't much left to say....
And how the hell is a 2hatch no Queen RR more easily scoutable?
I've played against most of the best zerg players on the NA server although aside from sheth they've just gone into macro games.
There's no queen to kill your probe. What good zerg builds don't have a queen? I only know of 2 hatch roach and 2 hatch baneling (ala july vs mvp) all-ins.
How does zerg stop 2 probes from scouting before speed?
Look my knowledge might be flawed. Maybe if they build 6 lings you have to build 4 cannons to play safe (seen kiwikaki build 4 blind cannons after pool hatch queen 2 lings and then gas and be completely fine in the midgame vs a macro zerg on xelnaga). Maybe you have to send 3 probes instead of 2.
I only know what I've learned from wins and losses thus far and I'll adjust my knowledge as I play more games.
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Nice post Jaeger. I too forge FE now versus zerg, almost regardless of map/spawn position. This gave me some ideas for a couple simcity builds.
Edit: You can hide probes for the purpose of hiding them and then click on the zerg minerals or ninja your way into their base. If you see no expansion its usually a good idea to put down mass cannons, or you are getting nydused.
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that is exactly what i was looking for after I miserably failed my building placement in a match yesterday!!! tnx man!!! favorited!!
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really nice work but metalo left is wrong, you don't expose your pylon to banelings like that, see post above mine
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On May 27 2011 05:13 ChickenLips wrote:
really nice work but metalo left is wrong, you don't expose your pylon to banelings like that, see post above mine
On May 11 2011 16:14 Jaeger wrote:
Note the core shown in meta left is completely haphazardly placed and severs almost no purpose in that location, it just constricts a bit of space heading up towards the ramp. It's better placed covering that pylon.
Ya that shot is wrong I guess I'll replace it soon since it seems to be causing some confusion, the core should be above the nexus and blocking access to the pylon.
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updated meta screens with 2nd pylon, cannons covering mineral line and core placement on left spawn to reduce confusion
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These are great for forge FE! and the ones that don't utilize cyber core are awesome for my 3 gate sentry expand sim.. I kinda wish all of them didn't use the cyber core though 
I need all the protection I can get against the new speedling/roach all-in T.T
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 Alicia vs  Violet on Bel'Shir Beach
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T1QWi.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xSDqt.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lk0V0.jpg)
scouts after 9 pylon see 13gas/14pool (the hell? anyone have any idea why you would do this opening?)
Then goes
- 17 nexus
- 17 forge
- 17 pylon
- 17 gateway @ 3:31
- 17 cannon -> resume probes
- 18 both gas
- 20 core @ 4:38
- 21 cannon
Pretty sure that zerg made a mistake, either the gas was early or the pool was late because he had 120 gas when his pool finishes and 465 minerals and 208 gas when his roach warren finishes which is just bad economy management. He eventually stops mining gas but has 117 banked while making only lings.
His second cannon doesn't go down until after his core which means it is no where close to finished when ling speed finishes. But his placement is very nice for blocking ling runbys, an attempt comes a few seconds after his cannon finishes which makes blocking it even easier. He is mining from the upper mineral patches to aid in this runby defense.
I'm a little worried about a cannon snipe as there is pretty good surface area on his first cannon but he does have room to drop a pylon or additional cannon behind his first but that cannon doesn't deny ling runbys as there isn't collision around the corner of the nexus. Maybe he should be that first cannon 1 hex forward? Or I suppose he could just hold position in that gap with probes until his second cannon finishes at which point he could rewall in front of the 3rd cannon with a pylon or additional cannon.
The geysers at the natural makes it awkward for roaches to attack the nexus while out of range of the initial 2 cannons from a bottom left angle, but it is still a definite vulnerability to this placement. Would have been interesting to see him have hold the roaches with his 1gate sentry/stalker while the roaches sniped at the nexus. I think it would've been close I almost always go for a 2gate stalker vs roach all-ins on a wide natural but then I typically have a later core.
Being able to build on that high ground with the pylon that blocks lings from running behind the minerals, that's just sexy.
The more I think about a cannon as part of your wall-off the less I worry about it. Against an early pool you're likely going to sacrifice your forge/pylon and defend with a cannon in your main. Against a middle pool you won't have a wall-off as you'll go forge cannon cannon and nexus before gateway. And against a normal pool you'll have the cannon up before lings arrive and you'll have plenty of time to see if he's sending 8 lings to bust your cannon and react appropriately.
His initial pylon not being in the wall-off lets him get 2 cannons right at the front if necessary and helps him constrict space with his core if things get scrappy later on.
Upon scouting the all-in he only adds one more cannon and continues to mine gas with 6 probes and to produce probes 2 at a time and stays on one gateway. This seems pretty bold to me. But go big or go home I guess.
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Russian Federation676 Posts
thanks for the thread, I have it in bookmarks and go to it when I am not sure about simcity!
also, the roach pushes idra vs TT1 did, i think ur placement is correct. i lost with mine
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Thanks a lot bro, was really helpful!
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the metalopolis walls are very elegant
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