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On May 09 2011 07:28 Jaeger wrote:
Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway.
I don't think the build order is relevant in this game.
The second cannon began at 3:45, the gateway began at 4:15, but only because anypro didn't send a probe to build it at 150 minerals. It could have been built at 4:05, causing the void ray to come out 20 seconds earlier than in game.
The void ray came out when the nexus was at 90 health, with 3 spine crawlers and ~12 lings at his expansion. Even if the void ray was 30 seconds earlier, the nexus is going down, and the gateway is likely going down as well.
I think anypro should have pulled probes+zealot to take out the spines as soon as he saw them, and chrono boost his gateway. Perhaps he needs to make a cannon as well. Even if he can't kill all the spines, taking out one or two and stalling with a cannon would probably be enough.
I actually just finished making a write-up of this strategy for my blog, though it's not at a super high level looking at these timings or anything: http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/blog/216/entry-5304-zvp-spine-crawler-rush-in-the-gsl/.
EDIT: Please people who are talking about removing the creep and/or talking about queens being there to transfuse: STOP. The creep has already been talked about, and bringing a queen makes NesTea so all-in he cannot win if it fails. As is, even if anypro saves his nexus, if he over-prepares, losing and/or cutting lots of probes, he can still fall behind. Adding a queen that has to walk cross-map isn't even remotely viable.
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You can also move the Overlords back so the tip of the creep is at the tip of the spine crawlers once you lay down your first creep. Also if you mass enough forces there won't be 4 cannons like what anypro did so your lings can clean up any forces much easier. Seems hard to pull off although with the Spanishiwa style coming up it's possible to disguise the build enough by denying scouting to your main and only mining gas from your main.
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I have tested this and it is bad. My timing was a bit off, but same concept remained. anypro in that game had 3 cannons. He delayed his cybernetics core heavely and was on 1 gate with no zealots. In a normal Forge FE the protoss will have 2 zealots minimum at that point to prevent zergling run bys (If it isnt a full wall off) And if it is a full wall of then 1 cannon would more then sufficient for defense.
Another reason anypro lost that game was because that map is terrible for forge FE. Almost as bad as zelnaga is. In general the 3 spine crawlers are not worth it unless you get to kill the nexus. And on a good map against a non-greedy opponent it will never work.
The only way for the spines to work is if you send in 2 overlords. Make the spine crawlers outside protoss vision, and get maybe 14-20 speedlings to prevent spines from being attacked by zealots. If you can pull this off, you have to hope that they didnt go 5 or 6 gate also or you lose after that.
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Is it really bad though? Maybe in general but not in this case (as Nestea won the game). I don't think this is a typical build at all for Nestea (he didn't do it any other games) and he probably knows that Dual Sight is bad for FE so when he saw anypro try a forge FE he knew he could take advantage of it and that anypro would heavily overreact. Seems like just a game snipe to me and to, as is commonly said, keep anypro honest by telling him he can't FE on a bad map and get away with it.
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On May 09 2011 07:58 PJA wrote:EDIT: Please people who are talking about removing the creep and/or talking about queens being there to transfuse: STOP. The creep has already been talked about, and bringing a queen makes NesTea so all-in he cannot win if it fails. As is, even if anypro saves his nexus, if he over-prepares, losing and/or cutting lots of probes, he can still fall behind. Adding a queen that has to walk cross-map isn't even remotely viable.
Of course it's all-in, and of course it won't work cross-map on Tal'Darim, but if you can all-in with very high success rate against FFE then that's relevant to the metagame, that's why I think discussing all-in variants is relevant.
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Just seen this build, oh my god, that is so creative!
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had this happen to me 4 times by 4 different zergs on ladder the other day. all on metalopolis. stopped pretty easily by a cannon in the front, which buys you enough time to get a voidray out before the spines can take out your nexus.
it should theoretically kill an opening where you dont get a stargate however. that would be the power of the build.
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just as a note, on the current ladder map pool this build would only work on Typhon Peaks, Xel'Naga Caverns and Slag Pits. You will never see FFE on Slag tho.
The reason is simple: the Nexus MUST be part of the wall to be vulnerable to those spines. Any other wall setup will make this worthless - well, maybe you can kill a forge and a gateway depending on the map, opening space for some sort of ling all-in.
Also, you gotta be kinda lucky on the scout on Typhon Peaks so your first OL can stay in the front of your oponent's base for the creep.
NesTea's build was clearly made in preparation for Dual Sight in itself. The map architeture - very similar o Xel'Naga, except a smaller natural - allowed that to work. Most of the maps lack the architeture for that to work.
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On May 09 2011 07:58 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:28 Jaeger wrote:
Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway. I don't think the build order is relevant in this game. The second cannon began at 3:45, the gateway began at 4:15, but only because anypro didn't send a probe to build it at 150 minerals. It could have been built at 4:05, causing the void ray to come out 20 seconds earlier than in game. The void ray came out when the nexus was at 90 health, with 3 spine crawlers and ~12 lings at his expansion. Even if the void ray was 30 seconds earlier, the nexus is going down, and the gateway is likely going down as well. I think anypro should have pulled probes+zealot to take out the spines as soon as he saw them, and chrono boost his gateway. Perhaps he needs to make a cannon as well. Even if he can't kill all the spines, taking out one or two and stalling with a cannon would probably be enough. I actually just finished making a write-up of this strategy for my blog, though it's not at a super high level looking at these timings or anything: http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/blog/216/entry-5304-zvp-spine-crawler-rush-in-the-gsl/. EDIT: Please people who are talking about removing the creep and/or talking about queens being there to transfuse: STOP. The creep has already been talked about, and bringing a queen makes NesTea so all-in he cannot win if it fails. As is, even if anypro saves his nexus, if he over-prepares, losing and/or cutting lots of probes, he can still fall behind. Adding a queen that has to walk cross-map isn't even remotely viable. Why is adding in an extra queen so super all-in? Isn't it just an extra 150 minerals? I don't understand what you mean here. For example, IdrA tried in one of his IPL games to send a queen cross map to start a creep highway from the middle of the map onwards (on Xel'naga), and it got sniped. He proceeded to win the game.
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On May 09 2011 08:04 Mafs wrote:
I have tested this and it is bad. My timing was a bit off, but same concept remained. anypro in that game had 3 cannons. He delayed his cybernetics core heavely and was on 1 gate with no zealots. In a normal Forge FE the protoss will have 2 zealots minimum at that point to prevent zergling run bys (If it isnt a full wall off) And if it is a full wall of then 1 cannon would more then sufficient for defense.
Another reason anypro lost that game was because that map is terrible for forge FE. Almost as bad as zelnaga is. In general the 3 spine crawlers are not worth it unless you get to kill the nexus. And on a good map against a non-greedy opponent it will never work.
The only way for the spines to work is if you send in 2 overlords. Make the spine crawlers outside protoss vision, and get maybe 14-20 speedlings to prevent spines from being attacked by zealots. If you can pull this off, you have to hope that they didnt go 5 or 6 gate also or you lose after that.
What a useless post... You play like 1 game on the ladder where you seem to have botched it and come back to this strategy forum and call it "bad". You can say that you have the same concept as anyone with any strat and fail miserably because your timings are off, why do people not understand this simple little thing?
You need sentries/cannons to stop all-ins, not zealots. Any baneling/ling, roach attack would just kill you if you can't get sentries up, so you really dont want to make more than 1 zealot. If you can't scout and dont make any cannons vs a zerg that has a friggin overlord watching your front, then you're asking to be busted in some way and look stupid while loosing.
It's very hard to get a read on this move as Toss since it's a very standard opening that gains instant mapcontrol that also protects your spines once you start them (speedlings).
I don't know, but I feel that a frontcannon needs to be placed rather blind for the expansion to be safe, which in itself is a investment and vulnerability to any other build...
This feels like a sick response in general if executed correctly (like with anything...)
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It's a funny gimmick, but really,it should be treated like any other cannon rush.
It would never have worked if he had pylon power outside his nexus, but since he didn't, he couldn't build cannons of his own.
The prober response would be to pull probes and kill them yeah ... or build cannons outside his nexus, once he had pylon power there.
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Hmmm, I think this was done against me on the ladder today, here is the replay.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-207834.jpg)
I have not seen the Nestea game myself, but if this is what the guy did, I believe going double stargate can counter this build easily. Although I made a few mistakes in my game, if you get the initial 2 voids out, you can defend it with minimal damage. I'll take a look at your rep in a few minutes.
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On May 09 2011 08:23 Zephirdd wrote:
just as a note, on the current ladder map pool this build would only work on Typhon Peaks, Xel'Naga Caverns and Slag Pits. You will never see FFE on Slag tho.
The reason is simple: the Nexus MUST be part of the wall to be vulnerable to those spines. Any other wall setup will make this worthless - well, maybe you can kill a forge and a gateway depending on the map, opening space for some sort of ling all-in.
Also, you gotta be kinda lucky on the scout on Typhon Peaks so your first OL can stay in the front of your oponent's base for the creep.
NesTea's build was clearly made in preparation for Dual Sight in itself. The map architeture - very similar o Xel'Naga, except a smaller natural - allowed that to work. Most of the maps lack the architeture for that to work.
It's might true that it was designed for Dual Sight, we wont know, but let's disregard that fact and play with the thought that you want to tear down a forge/gateway wall instead on another map.
What does this actually do to a protoss player? He is forced to place alot more cannons behind while his forge is dying, and he also needs to rebuild his gateway if he wants to have any type of ground to defend vs a incoming all-in, which means that the followup from zerg (which I think is the most powerful part of this build) gets ALOT stronger. For the investment; you apply pressure while droning and expanding while protoss scrambles to defend his expansion, delaying his tech to voidrays which you are safe against since you have a quick lair, and this makes your mid/lategame extremly strong.
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On May 09 2011 08:26 aebriol wrote:
It's a funny gimmick, but really,it should be treated like any other cannon rush.
It would never have worked if he had pylon power outside his nexus, but since he didn't, he couldn't build cannons of his own.
The prober response would be to pull probes and kill them yeah ... or build cannons outside his nexus, once he had pylon power there.
What you gonna do vs lings with speed on creep when you pull your probes to kill the spines?
Alot of what-ifs. 
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On May 09 2011 08:31 Axel.Bowex wrote:Hmmm, I think this was done against me on the ladder today, here is the replay. I have not seen the Nestea game myself, but if this is what the guy did, I believe going double stargate can counter this build easily. Although I made a few mistakes in my game, if you get the initial 2 voids out, you can defend it with minimal damage. I'll take a look at your rep in a few minutes.
That looks similar, but it there are a few differences. The main reason it wasn't effective against you is because the spines didn't have access to the nexus, which is the reason why this opener works so well.
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the reason lair was done before a stalker is because anypro pumped a ton of workers blindly without scouting. if the map wasnt so big he probably would of died to a roach ling all in aswell.
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On May 09 2011 08:23 Zephirdd wrote:
The reason is simple: the Nexus MUST be part of the wall to be vulnerable to those spines. Any other wall setup will make this worthless - well, maybe you can kill a forge and a gateway depending on the map, opening space for some sort of ling all-in..
That's the alternative Mr. Bitter used during his lesson today, it was the non-Nexus wall off and the guy (obviously far below Nestea's level) sniped off a pylon and a forge and would've had a deadly ling run by if he had control.
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On May 09 2011 08:24 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:58 PJA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:28 Jaeger wrote:
Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway. I don't think the build order is relevant in this game. The second cannon began at 3:45, the gateway began at 4:15, but only because anypro didn't send a probe to build it at 150 minerals. It could have been built at 4:05, causing the void ray to come out 20 seconds earlier than in game. The void ray came out when the nexus was at 90 health, with 3 spine crawlers and ~12 lings at his expansion. Even if the void ray was 30 seconds earlier, the nexus is going down, and the gateway is likely going down as well. I think anypro should have pulled probes+zealot to take out the spines as soon as he saw them, and chrono boost his gateway. Perhaps he needs to make a cannon as well. Even if he can't kill all the spines, taking out one or two and stalling with a cannon would probably be enough. I actually just finished making a write-up of this strategy for my blog, though it's not at a super high level looking at these timings or anything: http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/blog/216/entry-5304-zvp-spine-crawler-rush-in-the-gsl/. EDIT: Please people who are talking about removing the creep and/or talking about queens being there to transfuse: STOP. The creep has already been talked about, and bringing a queen makes NesTea so all-in he cannot win if it fails. As is, even if anypro saves his nexus, if he over-prepares, losing and/or cutting lots of probes, he can still fall behind. Adding a queen that has to walk cross-map isn't even remotely viable. Why is adding in an extra queen so super all-in? Isn't it just an extra 150 minerals? I don't understand what you mean here. For example, IdrA tried in one of his IPL games to send a queen cross map to start a creep highway from the middle of the map onwards (on Xel'naga), and it got sniped. He proceeded to win the game.
How early do you think he has to send a queen to get to that location in time? He would have to send the queen at like minute 5. So it's not like he throws down the spines, then spends 150 minerals. He has to invest 150 minerals at around the 4 minute mark in order to get a queen there. When you have this build to make 3 spine crawlers immediately when lair finishes, get ling speed and lair right when you have 100/200 gas, it means you are cutting 3 drones incredibly early, which costs several hundred minerals.
IdrA sending a queen to create a creep highway in an IPL game is entirely different. His strategy doesn't rely on a really tight timing, he probably doesn't have to make the queen nearly as early, and so the opportunity cost isn't nearly as high.
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not even going to put up a build order? what a sad OP, you're not even a zerg player... Here I watched the vod and took the liberty of copying his build order almost to the exact:
14 gas
13 pool
15 overlord
16 queen
18 ling
19 ling
@100 gas ling speed, remove 2 drones
19 hatch
19 drone
20 drone, put 2 drones back on gas, you should have around 40 gas
22 lair, ALL drones off gas
31 drone, send 3 drones to your opponents base
33 start pumping lings to cover your spines
It's an altered speedling expand, you drone very hard while keeping map control with lings and scouting his wall-off, this will only work if the nexus is a part of his wall so YES how open the natural is, is very important. You drone extremely hard and take a 3rd base while the spines are doing their damage, make sure you transition into hydras as his response is either air play or some kind of gate way all-in, he won't be able to get colossi that fast.
Keep in mind, that I'm sure nestea was doing 14 gas/13 pool as his standard build and tried something new once he saw how anypro walled himself off at his natural.
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On May 09 2011 11:01 emc wrote:
not even going to put up a build order? what a sad OP, you're not even a zerg player... Here I watched the vod and took the liberty of copying his build order almost to the exact:
14 gas
13 pool
15 overlord
16 queen
18 ling
19 ling
@100 gas ling speed, remove 2 drones
19 hatch
19 drone
20 drone, put 2 drones back on gas, you should have around 40 gas
22 lair, ALL drones off gas
31 drone, send 3 drones to your opponents base
33 start pumping lings to cover your spines
It's an altered speedling expand, you drone very hard while keeping map control with lings and scouting his wall-off, this will only work if the nexus is a part of his wall so YES how open the natural is, is very important. You drone extremely hard and take a 3rd base while the spines are doing their damage, make sure you transition into hydras as his response is either air play or some kind of gate way all-in, he won't be able to get colossi that fast.
Keep in mind, that I'm sure nestea was doing 14 gas/13 pool as his standard build and tried something new once he saw how anypro walled himself off at his natural.
Lol Nestea did not improvise that build on the spot kid.
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EPT
