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On May 09 2011 06:12 staxringold wrote:Nestea recently "debuted" this ZvP strategy vs. Anypro in the GSL. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65228Short version is if you see early Nexus you rush lair for creep pooping and drop 3 spines to slowly open his door and do massive damage. There are obvious details like the openness of the natural, but that's not relevant here. This topic also popped up in one of Mr. Bitter's lessons and he suggested the strategy was actually viable as a standard response in this situation. Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)? I'm a Terran, so obviously not familiar with the high level technicalities of all this, but that seems like a workable response. Or will the Zerg just have too many lings/spines before you have sufficient Sentries/Stalkers to kill the ovie? Thanks!
Don't confuse one time cheese with something that works. One time cheese is designed to catch your opponent offguard with some sh!t he has never seen before and get a one time free win nothing more.
This is not only not standard or viable, but it will never work a 2nd time against the same player.
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The above is false. If you do a forge FE with your nexus as part of the wall-in, I believe it is literally impossible for the spines to not bring it down. Even if it is, it's far from trivial to do so.
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It seems like it wouldn't work on all maps like Shakuras, because the wall and cannons would be defending the nexus, but you would definitely be able to kill the cyber core which would delay a six warp gate which is good I suppose. The timing is made so that the spines start when the cyber core finishes in this game. Of course anypro made an extra cannon which is not normal in my experience, but on maps like Xel Naga Caverns it'll definitely be the case. This basically means, if you open speedling and keep one guy in gas, you can respond to a forge expand and kill it. The only way they can truly get their expansion back is with stargate, and nestea has the timing out so that hydras will pop for air. Something else to add is that Nexus first might not be viable anymore because you simply won't be able to get out of your contain fast enough, or maybe you can spine crawler to the ramp or something because of the delayed cyber core. It'd be interesting to see how it works.
To summarise, I think it will only work on some maps and still be cost effective. I think it'll prevent protoss from forge expanding on maps you typically wouldn't see it on like metalopolis, xel naga etc. I don't think it'll prevent protoss from forge expanding all together, although it would be nice if that were the case.
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This is somewhat off-topic, but with the warp gate research time nerf would contaminating the core before warp gate finishes be feasible? Perhaps even by utilizing more than one overseer
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It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE.
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On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE.
But Protoss does not have a reliable way of scouting the lair, given how soon ling speed is researched. Besides that, 2 spine crawlers can kill a single cannon with micro so you are going to need to throw down more than 1.
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On May 10 2011 04:00 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE. But Protoss does not have a reliable way of scouting the lair, given how soon ling speed is researched. Besides that, 2 spine crawlers can kill a single cannon with micro so you are going to need to throw down more than 1.
I agree, that P doesn't have that, but he might get a lucky probe in. If not, you can still rely on blindly scouting your front or blindly building the canon, now that the knowledge of this strategy is out (which anypro didn't have).
2spines beat a canon, but you see the overlord before he starts to drop creep and before the spinecrawlers start building. so if Protoss starts the canon before the overlord spits creep, you should be able to take out at least 1 of those 2-3spines(if not more), than he has to reposition (~13sec), than he has to take out a 2000HP nexus. at least you bought a LOT of time for your units.
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United States15275 Posts
On May 09 2011 11:01 emc wrote:
not even going to put up a build order? what a sad OP, you're not even a zerg player... Here I watched the vod and took the liberty of copying his build order almost to the exact:
14 gas
13 pool
15 overlord
16 queen
18 ling
19 ling
@100 gas ling speed, remove 2 drones
19 hatch
19 drone
20 drone, put 2 drones back on gas, you should have around 40 gas
22 lair, ALL drones off gas
31 drone, send 3 drones to your opponents base
33 start pumping lings to cover your spines
It's an altered speedling expand, you drone very hard while keeping map control with lings and scouting his wall-off, this will only work if the nexus is a part of his wall so YES how open the natural is, is very important. You drone extremely hard and take a 3rd base while the spines are doing their damage, make sure you transition into hydras as his response is either air play or some kind of gate way all-in, he won't be able to get colossi that fast.
Keep in mind, that I'm sure nestea was doing 14 gas/13 pool as his standard build and tried something new once he saw how anypro walled himself off at his natural.
It wasn't an impulsive decision. It's obvious that the build was well-timed out, especially with the razer-thin timings of the hydra transition to ward off an air response (the only possible attack anypro could muster with that build).
On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:
It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE.
The entire point of going speedling expand with this strategy is to deny scouting of the main. If you keep the lings at the bottom of the ramp, they cannot spot the lair until they get a robo. By then it's too late to stop the spinecrawlers.
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On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:
It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE.
This is pretty wrong and here's why:
1.) He went for an fast expo and got denied and instead switched it up to a 14 gas 14 pool, you can tell because he was short on gas when his pool finished because he had gone over 200 minerals when he put his pool down. Considering how much fast expoing would have put his gas behind he would never have hit the timing in that manner, suggesting it was reactive.
2.) How does the Toss scout the Lair? He had 6 zerglings out and a queen to stop any probe from getting a scout on it and they were positioned on the ramp specifically for the purpose since otherwise they would be scouting, but he knew he didn't need to scout anywhere because the protoss had FFE'd and couldn't effect any pressure with a proxy pylon because of how long warp gate tech would take.
3.) He was not behind economically because he droned hard after cutting gas after 200 for lair and ling speed, around the time the spines went down he matched and quickly surpassed Anypro in worker count before he could apply any pressure and even took a third. The spine crawlers also acted as a contain preventing Anypro from countering when he had no defences because he had no warp gate tech and there's no way he could have stargate tech in time either.
4.) The overlord doesn't have to sit in plain sight, he did it this time simply because thee's no way Anypro would have amticipated it since it had never been done before. Furthermore what is he going to do to it? At that moment in time with that distance to unwalkable terrain that overlord is 100% safe and looked like it was moving towards the backside of Anypro's base anyway. You can easily do this on 4 player maps because you're waiting until lair tech anyway. Notice how far apart those bases are on dual sight? They're as far away as cross positions on most 4 player maps and he got two overlords up to the natural in time. There's also no reason he can't make the spine crawlers away from the front of the protoss's natural, uproot them and then reroot them in front, buying more time for the overlord and making it harder for the protoss to react.
5.) As for simply placing a cannon in front of the wall he first of all has to have pylon power in that area to do it, something that is not likely with a well constructed wall off and even less likely with the nerf to pylon range in the next patch. Additionally, there is only a 10 second window from when the first spine crawler goes down for you to place the cannon and have it finish first, even then if he places 3 spines in range it takes roughly 20 seconds to kill a spinecrawler with a cannon and 3 spines will finish a single cannon in less than 7. If you place more than 1 cannon you need even more buildable area within pylon range and he can win if you stagger your cannon timings and if you don't and you let them finish first he can cancel and you will be behind, unable to pressure and stuck with useless static defense while he fully saturates a third base. Basically spine crawlers have a huge positional advantage over photon cannons in this situation because you can actually build them right in the protoss's face since he has no units to move out with and simply kill them while they're building.
6.) If you actually look at the build itself there's actually some room for refinement. Nestea goes for the 14 gas 14 pool a little bit late, and then after he gets ling speed he takes two drones off of gas and gets to lair tech off of one drone on gas. If he had taken all 3 off of gas and then put them all back on later to hit the same timing he would have gotten another 50 minerals to squeeze out an extra drone or pair of lings. Also the hydra den was purely reactionary as it only started constructing after the first void ray was out and attacking the spines. If you can follow up that nexus snipe with a 3rd base, AND a hydra den, you can pretty much go for whatever tech you want off of two bases, using the minerals saved from not taking a third to get drones and extractors for more gas earlier.
It wasn't an impulsive decision. It's obvious that the build was well-timed out, especially with the razer-thin timings of the hydra transition to ward off an air response (the only possible attack anypro could muster with that build).
Go watch the VOD again, the hydra does not start until after the first void ray is already out and in plain sight killing the spines. It was not timed out at all, hydra dens just build really fast(40 ingame seconds) so you can make then reactively.
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United States15275 Posts
On May 10 2011 04:17 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:
It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE. This is pretty wrong and here's why: 1.) He went for an fast expo and got denied and instead switched it up to a 14 gas 14 pool, you can tell because he was short on gas when his pool finished because he had gone over 200 minerals when he put his pool down. Considering how much fast expoing would have put his gas behind he would never have hit the timing in that manner, suggesting it was reactive. 2.) How does the Toss scout the Lair? He had 6 zerglings out and a queen to stop any probe from getting a scout on it and they were positioned on the ramp specifically for the purpose since otherwise they would be scouting, but he knew he didn't need to scout anywhere because the protoss had FFE'd and couldn't effect any pressure with a proxy pylon because of how long warp gate tech would take. 3.) He was not behind economically because he droned hard after cutting gas after 200 for lair and ling speed, around the time the spines went down he matched and quickly surpassed Anypro in worker count before he could apply any pressure and even took a third. The spine crawlers also acted as a contain preventing Anypro from countering when he had no defences because he had no warp gate tech and there's no way he could have stargate tech in time either. 4.) The overlord doesn't have to sit in plain sight, he did it this time simply because thee's no way Anypro would have amticipated it since it had never been done before. Furthermore what is he going to do to it? At that moment in time with that distance to unwalkable terrain that overlord is 100% safe and looked like it was moving towards the backside of Anypro's base anyway. You can easily do this on 4 player maps because you're waiting until lair tech anyway. Notice how far apart those bases are on dual sight? They're as far away as cross positions on most 4 player maps and he got two overlords up to the natural in time. There's also no reason he can't make the spine crawlers away from the front of the protoss's natural, uproot them and then reroot them in front, buying more time for the overlord and making it harder for the protoss to react. 5.) As for simply placing a cannon in front of the wall he first of all has to have pylon power in that area to do it, something that is not likely with a well constructed wall off and even less likely with the nerf to pylon range in the next patch. Additionally, there is only a 10 second window from when the first spine crawler goes down for you to place the cannon and have it finish first, even then if he places 3 spines in range it takes roughly 20 seconds to kill a spinecrawler with a cannon and 3 spines will finish a single cannon in less than 7. If you place more than 1 cannon you need even more buildable area within pylon range and he can win if you stagger your cannon timings and if you don't and you let them finish first he can cancel and you will be behind, unable to pressure and stuck with useless static defense while he fully saturates a third base. Basically spine crawlers have a huge positional advantage over photon cannons in this situation because you can actually build them right in the protoss's face since he has no units to move out with and simply kill them while they're building. 6.) If you actually look at the build itself there's actually some room for refinement. Nestea goes for the 14 gas 14 pool a little bit late, and then after he gets ling speed he takes two drones off of gas and gets to lair tech off of one drone on gas. If he had taken all 3 off of gas and then put them all back on later to hit the same timing he would have gotten another 50 minerals to squeeze out an extra drone or pair of lings. Also the hydra den was purely reactionary as it only started constructing after the first void ray was out and attacking the spines. If you can follow up that nexus snipe with a 3rd base, AND a hydra den, you can pretty much go for whatever tech you want off of two bases, using the minerals saved from not taking a third to get drones and extractors for more gas earlier. Show nested quote +It wasn't an impulsive decision. It's obvious that the build was well-timed out, especially with the razer-thin timings of the hydra transition to ward off an air response (the only possible attack anypro could muster with that build). Go watch the VOD again, the hydra does not start until after the first void ray is already out and in plain sight killing the spines. It was not timed out at all, hydra dens just build really fast(40 ingame seconds) so you can make then reactively.
I was under the impression that Nestea knew how it would take for a Void Ray to cross the map and knew his hydras would be out in time. I don't have a season pass though, so I'll take your word for it.
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I don't believe Protoss can just run up and kill the overlord for a few reasons:
1) Nestea actually had at least 2 OL's there pooping creep, so you would have to kill more than just one overlord at times.
2) He rallies a round of lings for support to defend his spines before droning.
3) Even after the creep starts receding, it will take a large amount of time for the spines to die. There may be enough time to send another OL over, or to finish the job of sniping the nexus before they go down. So even if you snipe the OL, it's not the end of the push by any means.
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He doesn't need hydras to defend what is now a star gate off of one base. Fact is because he was so far ahead and there was no way for Anypro to recover and make it up to colossus or templars with storm, it makes perfect sense to finish the game with hydras because he is too far behind to respond to it in any viable way. Also Anypro botched his cannon placement putting extra cannons down still too far out of position to defend against the spines and he could see that he could at the very least snipe the nexus again with the hydra range upgrade uncontested.
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Question:
Even if the nexus isn't part of the wall, you can do this vs any wall-off that doesn't have a cannon in front. If that happens, wouldn't this still be a pretty good idea to do anyways, because you could poke a hole in the wall and do a speedling runby?
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i dont think protoss can do anything about this if the timing of it is right, a void ray wont be fast enough and zealots will be killed by ling's this might stop P from doing nexus first on maps with open nat's not sure tho
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In case you want the full build he used that game, I watched and marked it out. Should be pretty much spot on.
This should work if you catch your opponent un-prepared (does that imply cheese?).
Anyways enjoy. Of course this build order is only relevant if you manage to kill the nexus at which point, you are so far ahead the rest probably doesnt matter.
10/10 - Overlord
10/10 - extractor (trick)
9/10 - Drone
14/18 - extractor (1st)
13/18 - Pool (finish at 3:04)
15/18 - Overlord
15/26 - Queen (1st)
17/26 - 2x ling
19/26 - 100/100 Ling Speed (start at 3:16)
- Leave 1 drone on gas
19/26 - Hatchery Expand (3:48)
20/26 - 3 Drones on gas
22/26 - Start Lair ~200/150 (4:05) (pull all three drones)
26/26 - Overlord
- On Overlord completion send 3 drones
26/34 - 9x Drone
35/36 - overlord
35/36 - 3x spine in front of FE (6:06)
32/36 - zerlings
33/36 - 4x drone
39/44 - queen (2nd)
41/44 - 3x drone
44/44 - 4x Overlord
44/52 - Hatchery (Take 3rd)
43/52 - Drone
44/52 - Queen (3rd) - Put 3 drones on gas
46/52 - Drone
47/52 - Extractor (2nd)
46/60 - 4x Drone
51/76 - Extractor (3rd & 4th)
49/76 - 8x Drone
Protoss Went Air
57/76 - Hydra Den (8:14) (start Laying Tumors, to connect bases)
56/76 - 4x Drone
60/76 - Overlord
60/76 - Evo Chamber
59/76 - Overlord
59/76 - 100% Hydra Den - 5x Hydra (8:54)
9:00 Minute Check: 69/86 48 Drone, 10 Lings, 10 Overlords, 3 Queens
69/94 - Drone
70/94 - Hydra
72/94 - 5x Drone
72/94 - Hydra Range
77/94 - 6x Drone
83/94 - 2x Overlord
83/94 - Range Atk Lvl 1
83/94 - 2x Hydra
87/94 - 3x Drone
90/94 - 2x Hydra
94/102 - Drone
95/102 - Gas (5th & 6th) (10:17)
93/102 - 4x Hydra
101/102 - Drone, 2x Overlord
102/102 - Spire (11:06)
102/102 - 4x Overlord
102/118 - Pump Hydras for Finishing Attack
12:00 Check 116/150 63 Drone, 15 Hydra, 18 OVerlord, 3 Queen
Take 4th and reinforce with lings
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EPT
