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Nestea recently "debuted" this ZvP strategy vs. Anypro in the GSL.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65228
Short version is if you see early Nexus you rush lair for creep pooping and drop 3 spines to slowly open his door and do massive damage. There are obvious details like the openness of the natural, but that's not relevant here. This topic also popped up in one of Mr. Bitter's lessons and he suggested the strategy was actually viable as a standard response in this situation.
Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)?
I'm a Terran, so obviously not familiar with the high level technicalities of all this, but that seems like a workable response. Or will the Zerg just have too many lings/spines before you have sufficient Sentries/Stalkers to kill the ovie?
Thanks!
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What do you mean by "wait long enough"? The Nexus dies if you "wait long enough". And the 3 spines + handful of zerglings are enough to kill any units that try to kill the spines.
EDIT: I'm also not sure how you would snipe the overlord when there's 3 spines and lings protecting it. Also creep recedes pretty slowly and it's not like the spines instantly die off-creep.
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On May 09 2011 06:16 Jtn wrote:
What do you mean by "wait long enough"? The Nexus dies if you "wait long enough". And the 3 spines + handful of zerglings are enough to kill any units that try to kill the spines.
Not saying kill the spines. I'm saying absorb some damage as you build your force and snipe the Overlord. That, to me, seems like the weak point of the push.
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By the time you have enough stalkers to kill off 2-3 overlords while getting wacked by 3 spines, your nexus will probably be dead. Even if you get the ovies, spines will still be alive long enough to fuck shit up.
So no.
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On May 09 2011 06:17 staxringold wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:16 Jtn wrote:
What do you mean by "wait long enough"? The Nexus dies if you "wait long enough". And the 3 spines + handful of zerglings are enough to kill any units that try to kill the spines. Not saying kill the spines. I'm saying absorb some damage as you build your force and snipe the Overlord. That, to me, seems like the weak point of the push.
That makes no sense and the guy above me explained why so not sure what you're saying.
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One way that seems possible is to simply make an extra cannon in front of your nexus. This leaves you more open to roach all ins, and reduces your economic advantage, but it seems to shut down any spine attacks on your front (unless they are willing to sacrifice lings to tank damage until the spines can root. this still seems pretty defendable though)
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I think the build only works if your opponent goes Forge first FE. That way P has minimal forces.
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Yeah, it should be assumed by everyone posting that this is meant ONLY against FFE. It may or may not work in other cases, but I think the point is to discuss if it can be easily defended/prevented when the toss goes FFE.
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That early on after a forge FE the protoss doesn't have the units necessary to deal with even 12 lings without the help of the cannons and simcity. If you actually look at the timings, the core finishes when the first spine starts. You don't make zealots after a forge FE, or at least not more than 1 because the 2 things that really threaten the FE, is banes and roaches, which destroy the zealots. From thinking about it protoss needs 1 cannon in front of the nexus on open natural forge FE's, and if somebody tries to do that strat, put up one cannon for every spine in front.
Spines don't die THAT quickly from lack of creep nourishment. It's approximately equivalent to an 2 probe attacking it. Three spines have time to kill 2-3 nexuses before they die of lack of nourishment.
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On May 09 2011 06:12 staxringold wrote:
Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)?
Thanks!
after a forge FE you have no units at that time. that's the whole point of this attack.
it does not work, if you have a wall of buildings in front of your nexus. this only worked, becuause the nexus was part of the wall and the canons were behind that wall (obviously).
If you have a wall and canons in front of your nexus, this doesnt work, because you actually can not target the nexus. this build was a specific reaction to the risky building placement of anypro.
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I made an extremely fast lair build here that is safe to any opener except 2 gate. I tested this strategy with the build and my 3 spines completed at 5:20, which is a good 1 minute 40 seconds earlier than nestea's execution. That means rushing void ray won't be able to take out the spines in time. Could this be an instant win against FFE?
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On May 09 2011 06:41 WrathOfAiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:12 staxringold wrote:
Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)?
Thanks! after a forge FE you have no units at that time. that's the whole point of this attack. it does not work, if you have a wall of buildings in front of your nexus. this only worked, becuause the nexus was part of the wall and the canons were behind that wall (obviously). If you have a wall and canons in front of your nexus, this doesnt work, because you actually can not target the nexus. this build was a specific reaction to the risky building placement of anypro.
Are there ways in which you can still make the spine crawler push strategy effective? Maybe through using an ALL IN roach/spine crawler combination? Maybe by getting an evo and putting down spore crawlers to counter air units?
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On May 09 2011 06:42 JaqMs wrote:I made an extremely fast lair build here that is safe to any opener except 2 gate. I tested this strategy with the build and my 3 spines completed at 5:20, which is a good 1 minute 40 seconds earlier than nestea's execution. That means rushing void ray won't be able to take out the spines in time. Could this be an instant win against FFE?
I'm pretty sure that Nestea wanted a relatively quick expansion too in addition to the fast lair, which is why the lair wasn't the fastest possible lair. If Nestea didn't expand, I'm sure the protoss would have gotten suspicious.
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basically it seems you need to put down some cannons yourself
Seems smart to me, as it will cause the P to cut probes or unit or tech (cutting probes hurts them much more than you since you can build more than 1 worker at a time).
Concept looks like a 2 rax; you don't kill them, but it just forces both of you to be on a lower econ, with possibly higher footing for you if you micro well or the other has bad decision making or messes up.
Question:
Why did nestea build the 3 spines perpendicular to the nexus, instead of parallel? What if the P builds 3 canons in front of his Nexus? Only 1 spine would be able to hit back, and the other two would be sitting there o.o
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umm buildings don't die fast without creep. it shoudl take 4 minutes or so for the spines to die ? (so no it doesn't work to snipe the ovis to let the spines die)
So if the spines are burrowed in the ground early game they are pretty much undefeatable (only a pf is stronger ^.^ ).
Should be possible to surround spines on the move with probes hehe, or delay them a lil on build, but the eco damage would be really hard and fast lair + expansions ... t2 zerg can destroy a toss on so many ways with 4 gases avialable even with a low drone count.
But well we already saw offensiv spines in several games, but mostly only with a hatch ninjad. Even though lair is in a way cheaper and as fast. So it was only a natural that this would happen  . nestea probably watched some bw matches on colosseum ;P
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Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway.
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On May 09 2011 06:38 Amui wrote:
Spines don't die THAT quickly from lack of creep nourishment. It's approximately equivalent to an 2 probe attacking it. Three spines have time to kill 2-3 nexuses before they die of lack of nourishment.
I guess that's the core of my question, you so rarely see un-creeped Spines I wasn't sure what the timing would be like.
Thanks!
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On May 09 2011 06:41 WrathOfAiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:12 staxringold wrote:
Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)?
Thanks! it does not work, if you have a wall of buildings in front of your nexus. this only worked, becuause the nexus was part of the wall and the canons were behind that wall (obviously).
Have you tried it?
Even if it's a core / gateway / forge wall-off you don't have anything to stop the spines from killing all those three buildings. If the Zerg player brings lings and a Queen to transfuse the spines (depending on rush distance) then I don't see how the toss will hold it.
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I'm trying to think of a counter for this... I suppose it would be up to the protoss to scout gas usage/lair tech, and then get a void ray if this build is being used. One void ray can pick off three drones as they make their way across the map.
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If 3 spines are attacking a nexus, and there are 3 overlords dropping creep on the spines, and you zerglings in position, it takes like 15 seconds for creep to decipate or something like that its on the 1000 tips post.
Take that into account + having enough stalkers to shoot overlords + the time it takes for spines to actaully die off creep which btw if you send 3 more ovies when your 3 ovies are already in place you can repoop creep as spines don't die when they are unburrowed.
Then after this long ass time that the spines have not died they are doing 35? damage per shot x3. If the nexus isn't dead its dying and speedlings can come and clean it up..
I liked the play very much and I don't see it working on shattered any time soon but it looks cool.
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On May 09 2011 07:28 Jaeger wrote:
Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway.
I don't think the build order is relevant in this game.
The second cannon began at 3:45, the gateway began at 4:15, but only because anypro didn't send a probe to build it at 150 minerals. It could have been built at 4:05, causing the void ray to come out 20 seconds earlier than in game.
The void ray came out when the nexus was at 90 health, with 3 spine crawlers and ~12 lings at his expansion. Even if the void ray was 30 seconds earlier, the nexus is going down, and the gateway is likely going down as well.
I think anypro should have pulled probes+zealot to take out the spines as soon as he saw them, and chrono boost his gateway. Perhaps he needs to make a cannon as well. Even if he can't kill all the spines, taking out one or two and stalling with a cannon would probably be enough.
I actually just finished making a write-up of this strategy for my blog, though it's not at a super high level looking at these timings or anything: http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/blog/216/entry-5304-zvp-spine-crawler-rush-in-the-gsl/.
EDIT: Please people who are talking about removing the creep and/or talking about queens being there to transfuse: STOP. The creep has already been talked about, and bringing a queen makes NesTea so all-in he cannot win if it fails. As is, even if anypro saves his nexus, if he over-prepares, losing and/or cutting lots of probes, he can still fall behind. Adding a queen that has to walk cross-map isn't even remotely viable.
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You can also move the Overlords back so the tip of the creep is at the tip of the spine crawlers once you lay down your first creep. Also if you mass enough forces there won't be 4 cannons like what anypro did so your lings can clean up any forces much easier. Seems hard to pull off although with the Spanishiwa style coming up it's possible to disguise the build enough by denying scouting to your main and only mining gas from your main.
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I have tested this and it is bad. My timing was a bit off, but same concept remained. anypro in that game had 3 cannons. He delayed his cybernetics core heavely and was on 1 gate with no zealots. In a normal Forge FE the protoss will have 2 zealots minimum at that point to prevent zergling run bys (If it isnt a full wall off) And if it is a full wall of then 1 cannon would more then sufficient for defense.
Another reason anypro lost that game was because that map is terrible for forge FE. Almost as bad as zelnaga is. In general the 3 spine crawlers are not worth it unless you get to kill the nexus. And on a good map against a non-greedy opponent it will never work.
The only way for the spines to work is if you send in 2 overlords. Make the spine crawlers outside protoss vision, and get maybe 14-20 speedlings to prevent spines from being attacked by zealots. If you can pull this off, you have to hope that they didnt go 5 or 6 gate also or you lose after that.
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Is it really bad though? Maybe in general but not in this case (as Nestea won the game). I don't think this is a typical build at all for Nestea (he didn't do it any other games) and he probably knows that Dual Sight is bad for FE so when he saw anypro try a forge FE he knew he could take advantage of it and that anypro would heavily overreact. Seems like just a game snipe to me and to, as is commonly said, keep anypro honest by telling him he can't FE on a bad map and get away with it.
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On May 09 2011 07:58 PJA wrote:EDIT: Please people who are talking about removing the creep and/or talking about queens being there to transfuse: STOP. The creep has already been talked about, and bringing a queen makes NesTea so all-in he cannot win if it fails. As is, even if anypro saves his nexus, if he over-prepares, losing and/or cutting lots of probes, he can still fall behind. Adding a queen that has to walk cross-map isn't even remotely viable.
Of course it's all-in, and of course it won't work cross-map on Tal'Darim, but if you can all-in with very high success rate against FFE then that's relevant to the metagame, that's why I think discussing all-in variants is relevant.
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Just seen this build, oh my god, that is so creative!
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had this happen to me 4 times by 4 different zergs on ladder the other day. all on metalopolis. stopped pretty easily by a cannon in the front, which buys you enough time to get a voidray out before the spines can take out your nexus.
it should theoretically kill an opening where you dont get a stargate however. that would be the power of the build.
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just as a note, on the current ladder map pool this build would only work on Typhon Peaks, Xel'Naga Caverns and Slag Pits. You will never see FFE on Slag tho.
The reason is simple: the Nexus MUST be part of the wall to be vulnerable to those spines. Any other wall setup will make this worthless - well, maybe you can kill a forge and a gateway depending on the map, opening space for some sort of ling all-in.
Also, you gotta be kinda lucky on the scout on Typhon Peaks so your first OL can stay in the front of your oponent's base for the creep.
NesTea's build was clearly made in preparation for Dual Sight in itself. The map architeture - very similar o Xel'Naga, except a smaller natural - allowed that to work. Most of the maps lack the architeture for that to work.
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On May 09 2011 07:58 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:28 Jaeger wrote:
Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway. I don't think the build order is relevant in this game. The second cannon began at 3:45, the gateway began at 4:15, but only because anypro didn't send a probe to build it at 150 minerals. It could have been built at 4:05, causing the void ray to come out 20 seconds earlier than in game. The void ray came out when the nexus was at 90 health, with 3 spine crawlers and ~12 lings at his expansion. Even if the void ray was 30 seconds earlier, the nexus is going down, and the gateway is likely going down as well. I think anypro should have pulled probes+zealot to take out the spines as soon as he saw them, and chrono boost his gateway. Perhaps he needs to make a cannon as well. Even if he can't kill all the spines, taking out one or two and stalling with a cannon would probably be enough. I actually just finished making a write-up of this strategy for my blog, though it's not at a super high level looking at these timings or anything: http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/blog/216/entry-5304-zvp-spine-crawler-rush-in-the-gsl/. EDIT: Please people who are talking about removing the creep and/or talking about queens being there to transfuse: STOP. The creep has already been talked about, and bringing a queen makes NesTea so all-in he cannot win if it fails. As is, even if anypro saves his nexus, if he over-prepares, losing and/or cutting lots of probes, he can still fall behind. Adding a queen that has to walk cross-map isn't even remotely viable. Why is adding in an extra queen so super all-in? Isn't it just an extra 150 minerals? I don't understand what you mean here. For example, IdrA tried in one of his IPL games to send a queen cross map to start a creep highway from the middle of the map onwards (on Xel'naga), and it got sniped. He proceeded to win the game.
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On May 09 2011 08:04 Mafs wrote:
I have tested this and it is bad. My timing was a bit off, but same concept remained. anypro in that game had 3 cannons. He delayed his cybernetics core heavely and was on 1 gate with no zealots. In a normal Forge FE the protoss will have 2 zealots minimum at that point to prevent zergling run bys (If it isnt a full wall off) And if it is a full wall of then 1 cannon would more then sufficient for defense.
Another reason anypro lost that game was because that map is terrible for forge FE. Almost as bad as zelnaga is. In general the 3 spine crawlers are not worth it unless you get to kill the nexus. And on a good map against a non-greedy opponent it will never work.
The only way for the spines to work is if you send in 2 overlords. Make the spine crawlers outside protoss vision, and get maybe 14-20 speedlings to prevent spines from being attacked by zealots. If you can pull this off, you have to hope that they didnt go 5 or 6 gate also or you lose after that.
What a useless post... You play like 1 game on the ladder where you seem to have botched it and come back to this strategy forum and call it "bad". You can say that you have the same concept as anyone with any strat and fail miserably because your timings are off, why do people not understand this simple little thing?
You need sentries/cannons to stop all-ins, not zealots. Any baneling/ling, roach attack would just kill you if you can't get sentries up, so you really dont want to make more than 1 zealot. If you can't scout and dont make any cannons vs a zerg that has a friggin overlord watching your front, then you're asking to be busted in some way and look stupid while loosing.
It's very hard to get a read on this move as Toss since it's a very standard opening that gains instant mapcontrol that also protects your spines once you start them (speedlings).
I don't know, but I feel that a frontcannon needs to be placed rather blind for the expansion to be safe, which in itself is a investment and vulnerability to any other build...
This feels like a sick response in general if executed correctly (like with anything...)
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It's a funny gimmick, but really,it should be treated like any other cannon rush.
It would never have worked if he had pylon power outside his nexus, but since he didn't, he couldn't build cannons of his own.
The prober response would be to pull probes and kill them yeah ... or build cannons outside his nexus, once he had pylon power there.
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Hmmm, I think this was done against me on the ladder today, here is the replay.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-207834.jpg)
I have not seen the Nestea game myself, but if this is what the guy did, I believe going double stargate can counter this build easily. Although I made a few mistakes in my game, if you get the initial 2 voids out, you can defend it with minimal damage. I'll take a look at your rep in a few minutes.
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On May 09 2011 08:23 Zephirdd wrote:
just as a note, on the current ladder map pool this build would only work on Typhon Peaks, Xel'Naga Caverns and Slag Pits. You will never see FFE on Slag tho.
The reason is simple: the Nexus MUST be part of the wall to be vulnerable to those spines. Any other wall setup will make this worthless - well, maybe you can kill a forge and a gateway depending on the map, opening space for some sort of ling all-in.
Also, you gotta be kinda lucky on the scout on Typhon Peaks so your first OL can stay in the front of your oponent's base for the creep.
NesTea's build was clearly made in preparation for Dual Sight in itself. The map architeture - very similar o Xel'Naga, except a smaller natural - allowed that to work. Most of the maps lack the architeture for that to work.
It's might true that it was designed for Dual Sight, we wont know, but let's disregard that fact and play with the thought that you want to tear down a forge/gateway wall instead on another map.
What does this actually do to a protoss player? He is forced to place alot more cannons behind while his forge is dying, and he also needs to rebuild his gateway if he wants to have any type of ground to defend vs a incoming all-in, which means that the followup from zerg (which I think is the most powerful part of this build) gets ALOT stronger. For the investment; you apply pressure while droning and expanding while protoss scrambles to defend his expansion, delaying his tech to voidrays which you are safe against since you have a quick lair, and this makes your mid/lategame extremly strong.
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On May 09 2011 08:26 aebriol wrote:
It's a funny gimmick, but really,it should be treated like any other cannon rush.
It would never have worked if he had pylon power outside his nexus, but since he didn't, he couldn't build cannons of his own.
The prober response would be to pull probes and kill them yeah ... or build cannons outside his nexus, once he had pylon power there.
What you gonna do vs lings with speed on creep when you pull your probes to kill the spines?
Alot of what-ifs. 
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On May 09 2011 08:31 Axel.Bowex wrote:Hmmm, I think this was done against me on the ladder today, here is the replay. I have not seen the Nestea game myself, but if this is what the guy did, I believe going double stargate can counter this build easily. Although I made a few mistakes in my game, if you get the initial 2 voids out, you can defend it with minimal damage. I'll take a look at your rep in a few minutes.
That looks similar, but it there are a few differences. The main reason it wasn't effective against you is because the spines didn't have access to the nexus, which is the reason why this opener works so well.
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the reason lair was done before a stalker is because anypro pumped a ton of workers blindly without scouting. if the map wasnt so big he probably would of died to a roach ling all in aswell.
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On May 09 2011 08:23 Zephirdd wrote:
The reason is simple: the Nexus MUST be part of the wall to be vulnerable to those spines. Any other wall setup will make this worthless - well, maybe you can kill a forge and a gateway depending on the map, opening space for some sort of ling all-in..
That's the alternative Mr. Bitter used during his lesson today, it was the non-Nexus wall off and the guy (obviously far below Nestea's level) sniped off a pylon and a forge and would've had a deadly ling run by if he had control.
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On May 09 2011 08:24 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:58 PJA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:28 Jaeger wrote:
Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.
He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway. I don't think the build order is relevant in this game. The second cannon began at 3:45, the gateway began at 4:15, but only because anypro didn't send a probe to build it at 150 minerals. It could have been built at 4:05, causing the void ray to come out 20 seconds earlier than in game. The void ray came out when the nexus was at 90 health, with 3 spine crawlers and ~12 lings at his expansion. Even if the void ray was 30 seconds earlier, the nexus is going down, and the gateway is likely going down as well. I think anypro should have pulled probes+zealot to take out the spines as soon as he saw them, and chrono boost his gateway. Perhaps he needs to make a cannon as well. Even if he can't kill all the spines, taking out one or two and stalling with a cannon would probably be enough. I actually just finished making a write-up of this strategy for my blog, though it's not at a super high level looking at these timings or anything: http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/blog/216/entry-5304-zvp-spine-crawler-rush-in-the-gsl/. EDIT: Please people who are talking about removing the creep and/or talking about queens being there to transfuse: STOP. The creep has already been talked about, and bringing a queen makes NesTea so all-in he cannot win if it fails. As is, even if anypro saves his nexus, if he over-prepares, losing and/or cutting lots of probes, he can still fall behind. Adding a queen that has to walk cross-map isn't even remotely viable. Why is adding in an extra queen so super all-in? Isn't it just an extra 150 minerals? I don't understand what you mean here. For example, IdrA tried in one of his IPL games to send a queen cross map to start a creep highway from the middle of the map onwards (on Xel'naga), and it got sniped. He proceeded to win the game.
How early do you think he has to send a queen to get to that location in time? He would have to send the queen at like minute 5. So it's not like he throws down the spines, then spends 150 minerals. He has to invest 150 minerals at around the 4 minute mark in order to get a queen there. When you have this build to make 3 spine crawlers immediately when lair finishes, get ling speed and lair right when you have 100/200 gas, it means you are cutting 3 drones incredibly early, which costs several hundred minerals.
IdrA sending a queen to create a creep highway in an IPL game is entirely different. His strategy doesn't rely on a really tight timing, he probably doesn't have to make the queen nearly as early, and so the opportunity cost isn't nearly as high.
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not even going to put up a build order? what a sad OP, you're not even a zerg player... Here I watched the vod and took the liberty of copying his build order almost to the exact:
14 gas
13 pool
15 overlord
16 queen
18 ling
19 ling
@100 gas ling speed, remove 2 drones
19 hatch
19 drone
20 drone, put 2 drones back on gas, you should have around 40 gas
22 lair, ALL drones off gas
31 drone, send 3 drones to your opponents base
33 start pumping lings to cover your spines
It's an altered speedling expand, you drone very hard while keeping map control with lings and scouting his wall-off, this will only work if the nexus is a part of his wall so YES how open the natural is, is very important. You drone extremely hard and take a 3rd base while the spines are doing their damage, make sure you transition into hydras as his response is either air play or some kind of gate way all-in, he won't be able to get colossi that fast.
Keep in mind, that I'm sure nestea was doing 14 gas/13 pool as his standard build and tried something new once he saw how anypro walled himself off at his natural.
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On May 09 2011 11:01 emc wrote:
not even going to put up a build order? what a sad OP, you're not even a zerg player... Here I watched the vod and took the liberty of copying his build order almost to the exact:
14 gas
13 pool
15 overlord
16 queen
18 ling
19 ling
@100 gas ling speed, remove 2 drones
19 hatch
19 drone
20 drone, put 2 drones back on gas, you should have around 40 gas
22 lair, ALL drones off gas
31 drone, send 3 drones to your opponents base
33 start pumping lings to cover your spines
It's an altered speedling expand, you drone very hard while keeping map control with lings and scouting his wall-off, this will only work if the nexus is a part of his wall so YES how open the natural is, is very important. You drone extremely hard and take a 3rd base while the spines are doing their damage, make sure you transition into hydras as his response is either air play or some kind of gate way all-in, he won't be able to get colossi that fast.
Keep in mind, that I'm sure nestea was doing 14 gas/13 pool as his standard build and tried something new once he saw how anypro walled himself off at his natural.
Lol Nestea did not improvise that build on the spot kid.
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On May 09 2011 06:12 staxringold wrote:Nestea recently "debuted" this ZvP strategy vs. Anypro in the GSL. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65228Short version is if you see early Nexus you rush lair for creep pooping and drop 3 spines to slowly open his door and do massive damage. There are obvious details like the openness of the natural, but that's not relevant here. This topic also popped up in one of Mr. Bitter's lessons and he suggested the strategy was actually viable as a standard response in this situation. Here is my question: If the Protoss waits long enough and masses sufficient forces can't he run in and snipe the Overlord? And does doing so kill the push (as the spines will slowly die off and won't be able to reposition once the creep is gone)? I'm a Terran, so obviously not familiar with the high level technicalities of all this, but that seems like a workable response. Or will the Zerg just have too many lings/spines before you have sufficient Sentries/Stalkers to kill the ovie? Thanks!
Don't confuse one time cheese with something that works. One time cheese is designed to catch your opponent offguard with some sh!t he has never seen before and get a one time free win nothing more.
This is not only not standard or viable, but it will never work a 2nd time against the same player.
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The above is false. If you do a forge FE with your nexus as part of the wall-in, I believe it is literally impossible for the spines to not bring it down. Even if it is, it's far from trivial to do so.
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It seems like it wouldn't work on all maps like Shakuras, because the wall and cannons would be defending the nexus, but you would definitely be able to kill the cyber core which would delay a six warp gate which is good I suppose. The timing is made so that the spines start when the cyber core finishes in this game. Of course anypro made an extra cannon which is not normal in my experience, but on maps like Xel Naga Caverns it'll definitely be the case. This basically means, if you open speedling and keep one guy in gas, you can respond to a forge expand and kill it. The only way they can truly get their expansion back is with stargate, and nestea has the timing out so that hydras will pop for air. Something else to add is that Nexus first might not be viable anymore because you simply won't be able to get out of your contain fast enough, or maybe you can spine crawler to the ramp or something because of the delayed cyber core. It'd be interesting to see how it works.
To summarise, I think it will only work on some maps and still be cost effective. I think it'll prevent protoss from forge expanding on maps you typically wouldn't see it on like metalopolis, xel naga etc. I don't think it'll prevent protoss from forge expanding all together, although it would be nice if that were the case.
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This is somewhat off-topic, but with the warp gate research time nerf would contaminating the core before warp gate finishes be feasible? Perhaps even by utilizing more than one overseer
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It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE.
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On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE.
But Protoss does not have a reliable way of scouting the lair, given how soon ling speed is researched. Besides that, 2 spine crawlers can kill a single cannon with micro so you are going to need to throw down more than 1.
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On May 10 2011 04:00 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE. But Protoss does not have a reliable way of scouting the lair, given how soon ling speed is researched. Besides that, 2 spine crawlers can kill a single cannon with micro so you are going to need to throw down more than 1.
I agree, that P doesn't have that, but he might get a lucky probe in. If not, you can still rely on blindly scouting your front or blindly building the canon, now that the knowledge of this strategy is out (which anypro didn't have).
2spines beat a canon, but you see the overlord before he starts to drop creep and before the spinecrawlers start building. so if Protoss starts the canon before the overlord spits creep, you should be able to take out at least 1 of those 2-3spines(if not more), than he has to reposition (~13sec), than he has to take out a 2000HP nexus. at least you bought a LOT of time for your units.
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United States15275 Posts
On May 09 2011 11:01 emc wrote:
not even going to put up a build order? what a sad OP, you're not even a zerg player... Here I watched the vod and took the liberty of copying his build order almost to the exact:
14 gas
13 pool
15 overlord
16 queen
18 ling
19 ling
@100 gas ling speed, remove 2 drones
19 hatch
19 drone
20 drone, put 2 drones back on gas, you should have around 40 gas
22 lair, ALL drones off gas
31 drone, send 3 drones to your opponents base
33 start pumping lings to cover your spines
It's an altered speedling expand, you drone very hard while keeping map control with lings and scouting his wall-off, this will only work if the nexus is a part of his wall so YES how open the natural is, is very important. You drone extremely hard and take a 3rd base while the spines are doing their damage, make sure you transition into hydras as his response is either air play or some kind of gate way all-in, he won't be able to get colossi that fast.
Keep in mind, that I'm sure nestea was doing 14 gas/13 pool as his standard build and tried something new once he saw how anypro walled himself off at his natural.
It wasn't an impulsive decision. It's obvious that the build was well-timed out, especially with the razer-thin timings of the hydra transition to ward off an air response (the only possible attack anypro could muster with that build).
On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:
It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE.
The entire point of going speedling expand with this strategy is to deny scouting of the main. If you keep the lings at the bottom of the ramp, they cannot spot the lair until they get a robo. By then it's too late to stop the spinecrawlers.
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On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:
It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE.
This is pretty wrong and here's why:
1.) He went for an fast expo and got denied and instead switched it up to a 14 gas 14 pool, you can tell because he was short on gas when his pool finished because he had gone over 200 minerals when he put his pool down. Considering how much fast expoing would have put his gas behind he would never have hit the timing in that manner, suggesting it was reactive.
2.) How does the Toss scout the Lair? He had 6 zerglings out and a queen to stop any probe from getting a scout on it and they were positioned on the ramp specifically for the purpose since otherwise they would be scouting, but he knew he didn't need to scout anywhere because the protoss had FFE'd and couldn't effect any pressure with a proxy pylon because of how long warp gate tech would take.
3.) He was not behind economically because he droned hard after cutting gas after 200 for lair and ling speed, around the time the spines went down he matched and quickly surpassed Anypro in worker count before he could apply any pressure and even took a third. The spine crawlers also acted as a contain preventing Anypro from countering when he had no defences because he had no warp gate tech and there's no way he could have stargate tech in time either.
4.) The overlord doesn't have to sit in plain sight, he did it this time simply because thee's no way Anypro would have amticipated it since it had never been done before. Furthermore what is he going to do to it? At that moment in time with that distance to unwalkable terrain that overlord is 100% safe and looked like it was moving towards the backside of Anypro's base anyway. You can easily do this on 4 player maps because you're waiting until lair tech anyway. Notice how far apart those bases are on dual sight? They're as far away as cross positions on most 4 player maps and he got two overlords up to the natural in time. There's also no reason he can't make the spine crawlers away from the front of the protoss's natural, uproot them and then reroot them in front, buying more time for the overlord and making it harder for the protoss to react.
5.) As for simply placing a cannon in front of the wall he first of all has to have pylon power in that area to do it, something that is not likely with a well constructed wall off and even less likely with the nerf to pylon range in the next patch. Additionally, there is only a 10 second window from when the first spine crawler goes down for you to place the cannon and have it finish first, even then if he places 3 spines in range it takes roughly 20 seconds to kill a spinecrawler with a cannon and 3 spines will finish a single cannon in less than 7. If you place more than 1 cannon you need even more buildable area within pylon range and he can win if you stagger your cannon timings and if you don't and you let them finish first he can cancel and you will be behind, unable to pressure and stuck with useless static defense while he fully saturates a third base. Basically spine crawlers have a huge positional advantage over photon cannons in this situation because you can actually build them right in the protoss's face since he has no units to move out with and simply kill them while they're building.
6.) If you actually look at the build itself there's actually some room for refinement. Nestea goes for the 14 gas 14 pool a little bit late, and then after he gets ling speed he takes two drones off of gas and gets to lair tech off of one drone on gas. If he had taken all 3 off of gas and then put them all back on later to hit the same timing he would have gotten another 50 minerals to squeeze out an extra drone or pair of lings. Also the hydra den was purely reactionary as it only started constructing after the first void ray was out and attacking the spines. If you can follow up that nexus snipe with a 3rd base, AND a hydra den, you can pretty much go for whatever tech you want off of two bases, using the minerals saved from not taking a third to get drones and extractors for more gas earlier.
It wasn't an impulsive decision. It's obvious that the build was well-timed out, especially with the razer-thin timings of the hydra transition to ward off an air response (the only possible attack anypro could muster with that build).
Go watch the VOD again, the hydra does not start until after the first void ray is already out and in plain sight killing the spines. It was not timed out at all, hydra dens just build really fast(40 ingame seconds) so you can make then reactively.
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United States15275 Posts
On May 10 2011 04:17 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 03:33 Big J wrote:
It is a cheesy tactic, and here is why:
you spend 150/100 on your lair, and 300+3drones on spinecrawlers, when you are already behind in the eco (14/14 opening VS FFE). all toss has to do is, scout either the lair, blindly throw down an extra canon in front of his nexus (not really a big mistake even if the zerg plays standard), or just patrol/scout his front if there are any overlords spitting creep, and build the canon if it is so. (if there are zerglings, reatreat to your "normal canon/s")
further more it only works on 2player maps, or if you're lucky with your first overlord scout (else you don't get your ovie in the right place), and it was specially designed against anypro, because everybody knows that he is likely to FFE. This is pretty wrong and here's why: 1.) He went for an fast expo and got denied and instead switched it up to a 14 gas 14 pool, you can tell because he was short on gas when his pool finished because he had gone over 200 minerals when he put his pool down. Considering how much fast expoing would have put his gas behind he would never have hit the timing in that manner, suggesting it was reactive. 2.) How does the Toss scout the Lair? He had 6 zerglings out and a queen to stop any probe from getting a scout on it and they were positioned on the ramp specifically for the purpose since otherwise they would be scouting, but he knew he didn't need to scout anywhere because the protoss had FFE'd and couldn't effect any pressure with a proxy pylon because of how long warp gate tech would take. 3.) He was not behind economically because he droned hard after cutting gas after 200 for lair and ling speed, around the time the spines went down he matched and quickly surpassed Anypro in worker count before he could apply any pressure and even took a third. The spine crawlers also acted as a contain preventing Anypro from countering when he had no defences because he had no warp gate tech and there's no way he could have stargate tech in time either. 4.) The overlord doesn't have to sit in plain sight, he did it this time simply because thee's no way Anypro would have amticipated it since it had never been done before. Furthermore what is he going to do to it? At that moment in time with that distance to unwalkable terrain that overlord is 100% safe and looked like it was moving towards the backside of Anypro's base anyway. You can easily do this on 4 player maps because you're waiting until lair tech anyway. Notice how far apart those bases are on dual sight? They're as far away as cross positions on most 4 player maps and he got two overlords up to the natural in time. There's also no reason he can't make the spine crawlers away from the front of the protoss's natural, uproot them and then reroot them in front, buying more time for the overlord and making it harder for the protoss to react. 5.) As for simply placing a cannon in front of the wall he first of all has to have pylon power in that area to do it, something that is not likely with a well constructed wall off and even less likely with the nerf to pylon range in the next patch. Additionally, there is only a 10 second window from when the first spine crawler goes down for you to place the cannon and have it finish first, even then if he places 3 spines in range it takes roughly 20 seconds to kill a spinecrawler with a cannon and 3 spines will finish a single cannon in less than 7. If you place more than 1 cannon you need even more buildable area within pylon range and he can win if you stagger your cannon timings and if you don't and you let them finish first he can cancel and you will be behind, unable to pressure and stuck with useless static defense while he fully saturates a third base. Basically spine crawlers have a huge positional advantage over photon cannons in this situation because you can actually build them right in the protoss's face since he has no units to move out with and simply kill them while they're building. 6.) If you actually look at the build itself there's actually some room for refinement. Nestea goes for the 14 gas 14 pool a little bit late, and then after he gets ling speed he takes two drones off of gas and gets to lair tech off of one drone on gas. If he had taken all 3 off of gas and then put them all back on later to hit the same timing he would have gotten another 50 minerals to squeeze out an extra drone or pair of lings. Also the hydra den was purely reactionary as it only started constructing after the first void ray was out and attacking the spines. If you can follow up that nexus snipe with a 3rd base, AND a hydra den, you can pretty much go for whatever tech you want off of two bases, using the minerals saved from not taking a third to get drones and extractors for more gas earlier. Show nested quote +It wasn't an impulsive decision. It's obvious that the build was well-timed out, especially with the razer-thin timings of the hydra transition to ward off an air response (the only possible attack anypro could muster with that build). Go watch the VOD again, the hydra does not start until after the first void ray is already out and in plain sight killing the spines. It was not timed out at all, hydra dens just build really fast(40 ingame seconds) so you can make then reactively.
I was under the impression that Nestea knew how it would take for a Void Ray to cross the map and knew his hydras would be out in time. I don't have a season pass though, so I'll take your word for it.
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I don't believe Protoss can just run up and kill the overlord for a few reasons:
1) Nestea actually had at least 2 OL's there pooping creep, so you would have to kill more than just one overlord at times.
2) He rallies a round of lings for support to defend his spines before droning.
3) Even after the creep starts receding, it will take a large amount of time for the spines to die. There may be enough time to send another OL over, or to finish the job of sniping the nexus before they go down. So even if you snipe the OL, it's not the end of the push by any means.
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He doesn't need hydras to defend what is now a star gate off of one base. Fact is because he was so far ahead and there was no way for Anypro to recover and make it up to colossus or templars with storm, it makes perfect sense to finish the game with hydras because he is too far behind to respond to it in any viable way. Also Anypro botched his cannon placement putting extra cannons down still too far out of position to defend against the spines and he could see that he could at the very least snipe the nexus again with the hydra range upgrade uncontested.
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Question:
Even if the nexus isn't part of the wall, you can do this vs any wall-off that doesn't have a cannon in front. If that happens, wouldn't this still be a pretty good idea to do anyways, because you could poke a hole in the wall and do a speedling runby?
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i dont think protoss can do anything about this if the timing of it is right, a void ray wont be fast enough and zealots will be killed by ling's this might stop P from doing nexus first on maps with open nat's not sure tho
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In case you want the full build he used that game, I watched and marked it out. Should be pretty much spot on.
This should work if you catch your opponent un-prepared (does that imply cheese?).
Anyways enjoy. Of course this build order is only relevant if you manage to kill the nexus at which point, you are so far ahead the rest probably doesnt matter.
10/10 - Overlord
10/10 - extractor (trick)
9/10 - Drone
14/18 - extractor (1st)
13/18 - Pool (finish at 3:04)
15/18 - Overlord
15/26 - Queen (1st)
17/26 - 2x ling
19/26 - 100/100 Ling Speed (start at 3:16)
- Leave 1 drone on gas
19/26 - Hatchery Expand (3:48)
20/26 - 3 Drones on gas
22/26 - Start Lair ~200/150 (4:05) (pull all three drones)
26/26 - Overlord
- On Overlord completion send 3 drones
26/34 - 9x Drone
35/36 - overlord
35/36 - 3x spine in front of FE (6:06)
32/36 - zerlings
33/36 - 4x drone
39/44 - queen (2nd)
41/44 - 3x drone
44/44 - 4x Overlord
44/52 - Hatchery (Take 3rd)
43/52 - Drone
44/52 - Queen (3rd) - Put 3 drones on gas
46/52 - Drone
47/52 - Extractor (2nd)
46/60 - 4x Drone
51/76 - Extractor (3rd & 4th)
49/76 - 8x Drone
Protoss Went Air
57/76 - Hydra Den (8:14) (start Laying Tumors, to connect bases)
56/76 - 4x Drone
60/76 - Overlord
60/76 - Evo Chamber
59/76 - Overlord
59/76 - 100% Hydra Den - 5x Hydra (8:54)
9:00 Minute Check: 69/86 48 Drone, 10 Lings, 10 Overlords, 3 Queens
69/94 - Drone
70/94 - Hydra
72/94 - 5x Drone
72/94 - Hydra Range
77/94 - 6x Drone
83/94 - 2x Overlord
83/94 - Range Atk Lvl 1
83/94 - 2x Hydra
87/94 - 3x Drone
90/94 - 2x Hydra
94/102 - Drone
95/102 - Gas (5th & 6th) (10:17)
93/102 - 4x Hydra
101/102 - Drone, 2x Overlord
102/102 - Spire (11:06)
102/102 - 4x Overlord
102/118 - Pump Hydras for Finishing Attack
12:00 Check 116/150 63 Drone, 15 Hydra, 18 OVerlord, 3 Queen
Take 4th and reinforce with lings
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EPT
