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On April 11 2011 17:41 sleepingdog wrote:
Cool write-up, like the way you approach the decisionmaking based on your scouting-intel.
Maybe that's just a different "school of thought", but I've always found that a phoenix-response (!) - opposed to phoenix-openers - aren't that effective vs one base all-ins. This due to the fact that the marines are the core damage-dealers, and even though I'm able to snipe the banshees/raven/whatever, he just snipes everyhting with marines covered by SCVs. I don't want this to seem like a simple "blah you are doing it wrong"-post, but I'd like to ask you how on earth you are able to kill ~20-25 marines+scvs 10 minutes into the game WITHOUT colossi when you teched to phoenixes to deal with the support?
if you go mostly zealots, you should be fine. if he focuses the phoenix with his marines, your zealots will kill the marines easily. if he doesn't, 1 or 2 phoenix are enough to kill banshees really fast.
I also respond to one base all-ins with a starport. vs two starports you have to! vs one starport it depends on how many barracks he gets. If there are only one or two, he will most likely produce banshees constantly. usually I even get one or two immortals. they do great vs scvs. I really lost a lot against several one base all-ins until I tried getting as much immortals as I can without cutting too much zealots. so if there are more barracks and probably just a raven, you're better off with immortals and no stargate. if there will be lots of banshees, you have to get the stargate as response.
One thing I might note to the suggestion of the OP to not expand vs a one-base all-in:
With my standard build (Gate, robo, Gate; lots of sentries) I end up with more then 28 probes and 400 mins by the time I scout that there is no CC. I just build the nexus anyway, but stop the probe production as soon as I scouted it. I usually have 8-10 probes mining from that expo. and they pay for the nexus in time. when the attack hits, I'm usually already at 4 gates for 1 or 2 minutes and can support 4 gates of zealots and the occasional immortal and phoenix.
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whats up with no MMM drop harass play being discussed?
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Cool write-up, like the way you approach the decisionmaking based on your scouting-intel.
Maybe that's just a different "school of thought", but I've always found that a phoenix-response (!) - opposed to phoenix-openers - aren't that effective vs one base all-ins. This due to the fact that the marines are the core damage-dealers, and even though I'm able to snipe the banshees/raven/whatever, he just snipes everyhting with marines covered by SCVs. I don't want this to seem like a simple "blah you are doing it wrong"-post, but I'd like to ask you how on earth you are able to kill ~20-25 marines+scvs 10 minutes into the game WITHOUT colossi when you teched to phoenixes to deal with the support?
Zealot/sentry with good ff kill marines very fast. You should have 3-4 phoenix to deal with his air. I haven't really lost vs banshee pushes, unless I made some sort of micro blunder. By staying on one base you can use ff to stall a little until you have enough phoenixes. Stargate opener is mostly better vs this because you can scout his unit composition a lot better and have earlier harass options, but you still have to get a robo for observers so the overall outcome isn't that different.
EDIT: oh yeah, nearly forgot. What I most missed about your awsome overview is that you didn't go into the problem of maps. On the larger maps there is imo no reason not to one gate FE even against possible timing pushs. You can hold one base play on shakuras and tal'darim very comfortably with enough forcefields and a reasonably fast colossus. I've been able to get one colossus out BEFORE the 10 minute mark even after a one gate FE. This due to the fact that I don't feel like having to throw down 3 additional gates to be safe against stuff like 3 rax....I always get my robotics early, even when one gate FE-ing on these maps.
The other option would be a straight stargate opening. Opening with stargate into expansion is very vulnerable to early MM pressure, but again this isn't that much of a problem on the larger maps. I've never been that big of a fan of stargate openings, but on shakuras or tal'darim it's in my opinion superior to robotics openings or 3 gate pressure attempts. I feel your overview is best suited for the "classic" sc2-maps like xel naga or shattered temple.
I dislike a blind 1gate fe because you have to worry about all sorts of pushes/all-ins, while the Terran knows exactly what you're doing, and can just counter by doing whatever he prefers vs 1gate fe. He basically controls the flow of the game early on.
The advantage over a 2gate robo expo into double forge isn't that gigantic. I suppose people who have been doing 1gate fe for a long time will prefer it, but I think it's an uneccessary risk. I'm very fond of fast observers and reactionary play, it feels uncomfortable having to play blind at the start.
I'm pretty convinced that robo is the best (the safest at least) option when you're only scouting info is : "He has a lot of marines". 1gate fe is definitely viable, but I personally don't enjoy it very much and it doesn't really fit my "scout and react" style.
Stargate openers are okay, a lot of Koreans are doing it. You basically just use your first phoenix to scout and then react. Pretty much the same as with robo. The problem I have with opening phoenix is that you create a chain reaction of small delays. The phoenix cost more than an observer so you're expo is a little later, you still have to get the robo so your colossi are delayed, you feel unsafe because your colossi count is lower so you wait a little longer before you get upgrades, you delay your third by a bit...
I also feel like phoenixes aren't the most cost-effective unit early game against bio.
whats up with no MMM drop harass play being discussed?
check Tips and tricks =)
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On April 11 2011 18:54 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm pretty convinced that robo is the best (the safest at least) option when you're only scouting info is : "He has a lot of marines". 1gate fe is definetely viable, but I personally don't enjoy it very much.
My main problem is that I can never put enough pressure on very greedy terran expansion play on the bigger maps. This is somewhat a "vice versa"-point of my argument in favour of a blind one gate FE....meaning, if he no gas FEs, or one rax marauder FEs with the CC built in his natural and not in his base, I cannot pressure efficiently on tal'darim, shakuras or typhon. Now you may say "well, if you see a fast CC then you can go one gate FE in response".
That's were the troubles start, on some maps/positions he can deny scouting perfectly. To the extent that you won't even be able to check if he has taken his gas. And a no gas expo gets double mules insanely fast, this puts you quite far behind. You will get your intel only with zealot/stalker poke, and then you have already decided to go robo (on the big maps zealot/stalker need forever to get to your opponent).
I'd even go so far to advertise the use of the "greedy" one gate expansion that for exmaple HuK uses regularly, which gets a 2nd pylon instead of gas, then nexus, then gas, then core and chrono-boosts zealots until the core is ready. This is basicly the toss version of a no gas expo and usually I don't lose to early pressure on suitable maps with this.
Of course it's fine if you are comfortable with your style, no argument there. Nevertheless I'm pretty sure that many terrans haven't figured out how "greedy" they indeed can play on the bigger maps. Many still play with a defensive one rax cc inbase or two rax cc. Against this a 2 gate robo is perfectly fine, obviously.
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you can try sneaking your initial scouting probe up the ramp at natural/main while doing the zealot stalker poke, most terrans won't focus fire on ur probe. I only ever do whiteRa's version of 3 gate robo opening these days unless im 4gating or 3gate VR; gave up 1 gate FE after losing too many times to terran all-ins. But thats prolly cause im not good enough.
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Added a note about the possibility of 1gate fe on big maps. I gave it some thought and it seems like a calculated risk.
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On April 11 2011 19:11 sleepingdog wrote:Of course it's fine if you are comfortable with your style, no argument there. Nevertheless I'm pretty sure that many terrans haven't figured out how "greedy" they indeed can play on the bigger maps. Many still play with a defensive one rax cc inbase or two rax cc. Against this a 2 gate robo is perfectly fine, obviously.
I don't want to derail this into a discussion about what is viable or not in terms of terran expansions. However, you have to consider that even on big maps, 4gate is still an option (which cannot always be reliably scouted). I know that a 4gate is not as fast on TA as on a smaller map but it's still quite early. So there is a limit to how greedy you can play as T vs P, even on bigger maps - as you will still have to play 4gate safe.
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More people should make flowcharts :D
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On April 11 2011 20:35 Arcanefrost wrote:
Added a note about the possibility of 1gate fe on big maps. I gave it some thought and it seems like a calculated risk.
Thx, appreciate it 
Another thing that I think I didn't emphazise enough: as you correctly pointed out, not 2/3 rax pressure, but one base all-ins are normally the threat against a one gate FE. This is due to the fact that you get your robotics and therefore your observer out much later. Usually.
Now this is important: the usual one gate FE build cuts probes and gets 2-3 gates asap to be safe against pressure. This is something that is - in my opinion - NOT necessary on the big maps. If you do the zealot/stalker-poke that you mentioned and see nothing that points towards a big bio pressure build, then it's perfectly safe if you get your robotics directly after the nexus and add gateways when minerals allow it. Since there's such a long rush-distance and the easily defendable entrance, you are in little danger compared to, say, xel naga, meta or temple (on the latter ones, the entrances are so huge that force fields don't do anything in low numbers). On maps like scrap station or typhon vertical, there's always the threat of a bust-down of the rocks.
This is, in my opinion, the core point. That you are able to take the - as you'd put it - "calculated risk" of getting your robotics much earlier after the nexus than you would when playing a "standard" one gate FE. I guess then another thing comes into play, namely, that I prefer getting colossi early vs one base pushs, even against banshee play (as, say, white-ra does it too). Because if you indeed do get the early robotics, then you are able to ALSO get colossi out in time before the attack hits.
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On April 11 2011 21:55 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 20:35 Arcanefrost wrote:
Added a note about the possibility of 1gate fe on big maps. I gave it some thought and it seems like a calculated risk. Thx, appreciate it Another thing that I think I didn't emphazise enough: as you correctly pointed out, not 2/3 rax pressure, but one base all-ins are normally the threat against a one gate FE. This is due to the fact that you get your robotics and therefore your observer out much later. Usually. Now this is important: the usual one gate FE build cuts probes and gets 2-3 gates asap to be safe against pressure. This is something that is - in my opinion - NOT necessary on the big maps. If you do the zealot/stalker-poke that you mentioned and see nothing that points towards a big bio pressure build, then it's perfectly safe if you get your robotics directly after the nexus and add gateways when minerals allow it. Since there's such a long rush-distance and the easily defendable entrance, you are in little danger compared to, say, xel naga, meta or temple (on the latter ones, the entrances are so huge that force fields don't do anything in low numbers). On maps like scrap station or typhon vertical, there's always the threat of a bust-down of the rocks. This is, in my opinion, the core point. That you are able to take the - as you'd put it - "calculated risk" of getting your robotics much earlier after the nexus than you would when playing a "standard" one gate FE. I guess then another thing comes into play, namely, that I prefer getting colossi early vs one base pushs, even against banshee play (as, say, white-ra does it too). Because if you indeed do get the early robotics, then you are able to ALSO get colossi out in time before the attack hits.
I don't really like the colossus response to 1 base pushes. You are investing big time into tech just to get a unit that murders marines only, imo it isn't that great of a choice.
Against the pure marine/banshee/raven push a colossus or two is quite good but against other variations colossi aren't too great imo. For example against the tank/banshee/marine/raven push colossi can quite suck as some focus from tanks + banshee's takes down colossi really quick. In the same way colossi are weak if the push has more marauders or more hellions instead of marines which are the more dangerous variations of raven/banshee pushes imo.
The counter to 1 base play in this guide is quite different then how I do it.
First of all I rarely cancel the nexus because you never want to stay on 1 base vs 1 base as protoss, if the terran transitions well into a siege tank expo you are quite behind if you canceled your expo. (the artosis video on quick colossi sucks hard in that aspect). If they bring lots of scv's you can always abandon your expo still and it will usually have paid off by the time a raven push comes anyway.
Besides that I prefer phoenix over colossi alot against raven pushes because they are more versatile. They are quite good against anything involving 2 banshees and 1 raven whereas colossi are only great when it is pure marine/banshee which is far from always the case. Stargate is also cheaper then robo bay and phoenix build faster so you aren't as likely to be 'late' with them whereas you can easily be with colossi. If the push is really all-in you can also just get a few cannons, they do quite well against marines and why shouldn't you use them? They lose if they sit back anyways.
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its also said in a day9 daily on commentating on incontrols stream: when you know hes all inning, you can really put everything in defense, cause you dont need anything after having defended.
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There are various ways of dealing with all-ins. The ones in the op are the best way to deal with them in my eyes. I wouldn't recommend expanding or getting cannons , but there wont really be any lategame anyways, so whatever works :p
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Would you care to post a picture of your in base simcity? Sometimes I hesitate to do such a thing because my ground army will have a hard time reaching the drops, streaming in in a single line while the MM can all fire at once.
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On April 12 2011 03:19 Quochobao wrote:
Would you care to post a picture of your in base simcity? Sometimes I hesitate to do such a thing because my ground army will have a hard time reaching the drops, streaming in in a single line while the MM can all fire at once.
I'm afraid not. My pc broke down and I won't be able to play sc for a while.
I usually block the space inbetween the assimilators and the nexus. If there's a reaper or hellions I block the space between the back of the base and one of the assimilators too (so only 1 opening left then) This is for the main base, i usually dont block my other bases that much unless he has hellions.
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On April 11 2011 21:55 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 20:35 Arcanefrost wrote:
Added a note about the possibility of 1gate fe on big maps. I gave it some thought and it seems like a calculated risk. Thx, appreciate it Another thing that I think I didn't emphazise enough: as you correctly pointed out, not 2/3 rax pressure, but one base all-ins are normally the threat against a one gate FE. This is due to the fact that you get your robotics and therefore your observer out much later. Usually. Now this is important: the usual one gate FE build cuts probes and gets 2-3 gates asap to be safe against pressure. This is something that is - in my opinion - NOT necessary on the big maps. If you do the zealot/stalker-poke that you mentioned and see nothing that points towards a big bio pressure build, then it's perfectly safe if you get your robotics directly after the nexus and add gateways when minerals allow it. Since there's such a long rush-distance and the easily defendable entrance, you are in little danger compared to, say, xel naga, meta or temple (on the latter ones, the entrances are so huge that force fields don't do anything in low numbers). On maps like scrap station or typhon vertical, there's always the threat of a bust-down of the rocks. This is, in my opinion, the core point. That you are able to take the - as you'd put it - "calculated risk" of getting your robotics much earlier after the nexus than you would when playing a "standard" one gate FE. I guess then another thing comes into play, namely, that I prefer getting colossi early vs one base pushs, even against banshee play (as, say, white-ra does it too). Because if you indeed do get the early robotics, then you are able to ALSO get colossi out in time before the attack hits.
1 gate FE is still one of my favorite PvT builds, even on smaller maps. What I actually have the hardest time holding are fast 2 rax attacks or rax/hellion attacks with SCVs that hit right when the nexus comes up. 1 base all-ins can be difficult to hold, but with practice and experience it becomes easier and I haven't come across any that were impossible to hold (unless they pull all SCVs, in which case you can just sac the expo and still be ahead). Having a later robo is never an issue, because if you don't see marauders you can just drop the robo before adding additional gates.
The trick is knowing when to cut probes. I don't think many people realize this but the investment in an expansion is not all or none, the nexus itself is only a smart part of the investment. The bigger part comes from the additional probes you make. If you just drop the nexus but not make that many more probes, you're not really that far behind initially than had you not expanded (and the later the opponent attacks, the more your expansion pays off). I guess you can argue that you'll be behind in tech, but if you go gateway heavy style that's irrelevant.
On bigger maps (tal darim, shakuras) I'm actually experimenting with nexus first, and so far it's looking really really strong. Why play with a reactive playstyle when you can force your opponent to react to you? :p
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Just switched from Zerg to Protoss and this a godsend for a match up I'm clueless about. Thanks you!!!
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On bigger maps (tal darim, shakuras) I'm actually experimenting with nexus first, and so far it's looking really really strong. Why play with a reactive playstyle when you can force your opponent to react to you?
Because you don't know how he will react :p
I completely agree with the rest of your post. Imo both styles are good. My reactionary style is a little safer and good all-around, but has a weaker economy. Fe is a little vulnerable to some pressures, but you have a better econ afterwards, and against a passive terran it's gonna put you ahead by a lot. I guess the pros and cons kind of equalize them.
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Great Post!, Thank You ArcaneFrost. Saved.
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Wow, this is absolutely amazing, ive been having alot of problems with PvT lately and this is a great way to look at the MU. i knew exactly what he was doing usualyl i wouldnt poke but after this yeah i actually came out on top :D Hope you make one for PvZ evne if your not as good at it!
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On April 13 2011 23:10 inFeZa wrote:
Wow, this is absolutely amazing, ive been having alot of problems with PvT lately and this is a great way to look at the MU. i knew exactly what he was doing usualyl i wouldnt poke but after this yeah i actually came out on top :D Hope you make one for PvZ evne if your not as good at it!
Plexa wrote a PvZ overview that is one of the insightful ways to view the matchup even to this day.
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EPT
