EPTGoing to try your build out also to see which one better suits me. Good job on the post.
[G] ZvZ Surviving early game with 15 hatch - Page 2
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DemiAlbedo
Canada69 Posts
Going to try your build out also to see which one better suits me. Good job on the post. | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
Well done. | ||
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NRP
United States4 Posts
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Kava
Canada65 Posts
On March 31 2011 14:26 Yacashui wrote: this has been bothering me too, im a plat zerg and every single zerg i face now does the exact same crap each time, 10 pool, then make an inbase hatch, then make 40-60 speedlings, then a move to ur base, then make 50 speedlings for defense with 1-4 spines, then go for mutas out of curiosity.. What are you doing during the 5 mins he's massing speedlings off of one base? You should be able to drone to 17-18, and mass ling/bane off two mining bases and slaughter him before he drops a spine | ||
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
Also, I hadn't watched the Dimaga vs Nestea game, and having watched it now, was pretty good I must say. Great BO3 of ZvZ =) | ||
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Flavalanche
United States164 Posts
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
I'm starting to experiment with the 11 overpool build as I think it offers some flexibility but the verdict is still out. I also want to say that I find using spanishiwa's no gas style more useful than gas on 17, you build 4+ queens and use those to plug your ramp against banelings and they can transfuse spine crawlers. You also don't lose a drone building a roach warren and you save larvae for more lings/drones as queens are obviously larvaless. The tradeoff is that it's harder to scout what the other player is doing but that's where good ovie positioning comes in. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
On May 08 2011 14:38 proxY_ wrote: I can usually survive initially if they 9 pool spine and I 15 hatch but typically I wind up behind and lose a few minutes later assuming that the other zerg knows what they're doing. If they do a dimaga-esque drone pull and build the spine in my base I don't think there's any way to hold if with a 15 hatch unless they somehow screw something up. The matchup is really frustrating me lately honestly because it feels so paper rock scissorsy. If I do a gas pool build at a regular time I feel like I'm behind against a 15 hatch player (depends on the map of course, scrap, xel-naga, and close position metal or shattered I don't think you can get away with hatch first, the verdict is still out on tal-darim because it's hard to block the choke into your base in time). I'm starting to experiment with the 11 overpool build as I think it offers some flexibility but the verdict is still out. I also want to say that I find using spanishiwa's no gas style more useful than gas on 17, you build 4+ queens and use those to plug your ramp against banelings and they can transfuse spine crawlers. You also don't lose a drone building a roach warren and you save larvae for more lings/drones as queens are obviously larvaless. The tradeoff is that it's harder to scout what the other player is doing but that's where good ovie positioning comes in. Go for a normal gas/pool build but scout on 9 to block a fast expo. You end up either ahead or even. Goodluck. (~1000 master at the moment) It makes games less rock paper scissor | ||
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Frozenserpent
United States143 Posts
On May 08 2011 14:53 zJayy962 wrote: Go for a normal gas/pool build but scout on 9 to block a fast expo. You end up either ahead or even. Goodluck. (~1000 master at the moment) It makes games less rock paper scissor That's the safe opener, but I believe 15 hatch is a little bit better versus a 14 pool, provided you know how to defend against various stuff. In a lot of maps you can't expect the 9 scout to block a fast expo. If i feel confident against the opponent I would definitely go 14 pool. But if it's against someone you think will give a good fight, it's nice to have the 15 expand instead of the pool-first. | ||
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
Edit: Its 10 gas 10 pool | ||
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johax
Sweden165 Posts
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
Dimaga style 6 pool + drones vs. 15 hatch Like I thought, early pools with drones pulled as well make the attack super all-in. This means that every second you can delay makes his attack weaker and your defense stronger. So my plan was to avoid fighting for as long as possible until I was sure that I would win. Notes about the replay:
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
a 6 pool drone all-in is a weaker attack than a 10-ling 6pool by a lot, and this guy blindly went to the wrong direction on a big map. Your advice on how to handle early pools is spot-on, but you need to note that equal micro withstanding, you should be losing these games. 15hatch is extremely greedy on all but the largest maps, and you will lose unless he sends all his drones. 6 pool is simply a build order counter to 15 hatch, and there's nothing you can do to beat it unless the 6 pooler egregiously messes up or stupidly sends all his drones too, which is the case in the replay you post (and as it seems, where/why you have most of that information). From a recent NASL game:+ Show Spoiler + Sheth vs Moon game2 on 18/19 May, Moon sends all but 2 drones like an idiot, and gets thoroughly stomped by a 15hatch build. If he had kept his drones at home, he'd have handily won. NEVER send your drones in a ling all-in unless it's to build spines, and then ONLY send the number of spines you can build. 100% 15 hatch should lose to 6 pool. It's possible to hold 10000 lings with 1 spine crawler if the opponent holds position on the lings and then drops from the game, but I don't see how that could be considered a viable counter. I do think it's possible with vastly superior micro than your opponent to hold a 10 pool, but anything earlier is almost a guaranteed loss, and 6 pool more so. In the replay you posted, your opponent made three large mistakes: 1) He sent all his drones (and therefore wasn't able to make the 2 extra sets of lings). 100% a 6 pool drone all-in is weaker than a standard 6-pool. 4 lings have more dps than 7 drones, and removes your ability to reinforce. 2) He blindly attacked the wrong location first. 3) His pool was 3 seconds late (as were his lings). Not normally a big deal except when you're doing a 45 second build. On May 08 2011 16:00 skindzer wrote: Im pretty sure theres a build that goes something like 13 gas 12 pool into mass speedlings that cant be stopped if you go 15 hatch on most maps. It should be added cause im seeing it more often lately. Edit: Its 10 gas 10 pool 10 gas 11 pool is more efficient than 10 gas 10 pool, as you can't make use of the earlier pool timing via earlier speed (and if you put 3 on gas instead of 2, you can't afford the queen immediately). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192260 That was my default zvz opener for months and I still use it quite frequently. This is the fastest way to get the most speedlings by time T in a given game. | ||
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TheLast
Germany59 Posts
 Thank you so much, I have been looking for a more or less safe and at the same time economic build for ZvZ! Are there maps where this build like instalooses against other openings ? | ||
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-AtRi-
123 Posts
Why not use banelings to defend? If the only thing that you can lose to is mass speedling or speedling/bling, wont you have more larvae than you opponent and be able to out mass him? EDIT: Forgot to say, great guide. Keep it up! | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On July 09 2011 10:05 Lobotomist wrote: Hmmmm. My biggest question is defending against a 14/14 pure speedling aggression. Will committing to your first 3-5 roaches allow you to switch back to lings fast enough, and avoid dying? Also, doesn't defending with slow lings (and thus having no map control) pretty much guarantee that you'll be behind economically? Yes, in most cases you'll be fine making those first 3-5 roaches. The only time you won't will be on close position metal or shattered, if he can run the lings into your main before the roaches get to the ramp. (And even then you might be ok if you pull drones). After the first 3-5 roaches, use your next 100 gas to get metabolic boost. Then takes guys off gas and build nothing but speedlings until your scouting overlord behind his natural mineral line sees him produce drones. If he all-ins you, you will win. If he goes back to economy, your economies will be pretty even, but you'll have your roach warren before him and have a head start on roach production (3-5 already produced). | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On July 09 2011 10:27 loveeholicce wrote: Terrible thread. I can name a lot of builds that would do terrible terrible damage to this. Oh yeah, like what? And will they work on all maps or just some? | ||
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