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Disclaimer: I got most of this from that first ZvZ Mr.Bitter with Ret, so all credit goes to them. I just thought I would type it out for people who don't watch Mr.Bitter, plus I get a little more specific then they did.
You only need to overlord scout on 2 player maps. 12 or 13 scout should be fine on 4 player maps. The only information you need is whether or not he fast expanded. However, it's very important in any zvz situation to have a line of overlords from his base to your base and to actually use the scouting info it gives. Also, having an overlord behind your opponent's natural mineral line is a great way to scout when he's making more drones.
The Build Order
15 hatch
15 pool
18 extractor
17 overlord
If you scout 6 lings and/or 2 drones !@#$%
- Don't worry, this build can hold 6-10 pools!
- Cancel your hatch and your extractor if you can.
- Keep building drones to 18/18, then build an overlord
- When the 6 lings and/or drones get to your base, pull all 18 drones, send 4 to each spine crawler and chase away the lings with the remaining 10 or 14 drones.
- As soon as your pool finishes, you should have at least 400-450 minerals saved up from canceling your hatch, so you can build 6 lings, a queen and a spine crawler.
- The micro takes practice, so don't get discouraged if it doesn't work the first time or two.
- Practice against a friend to avoid losing ladder points >.<
If you scout an empty natural:
- No more drones until you've held off the attack/all-in. Also, keep all your drones in your main.
- Roach warren and 1 queen as soon as your pool finishes. Don't make a 2nd queen until you hold off the attack.
- Skip metabolic boost until later. If you're on defense it won't matter.
- 8 lings followed by an overlord. Forgetting the overlord at this point will lose you the game.
- 3-5 roaches when warren finishes, send them to the gap between your ramp and your natural hatchery. Be ready to back them up to the ramp to prevent ling runby or move down to the hatch to scare lings away from attacking it.
Now you have to figure out if he's going pure speedling or speedling/baneling
Speedling:
- No more roaches (this is a big reason people lose to speedling all-ins. Building more than 4-5 roaches against a speedling all-inner is a guarunteed loss).
- pump nothing but lings
- get metabolic boost with your first 100 gas after the initial roaches and then take all drones off of gas
- pay close attention to whether or not more reinforcements are coming. When they stop coming for a while, he might be droning, try to send a ling or two in and count his drones/scout tech and army size.
Speedling/Baneling:
- Make as many roaches as you can off of 1 extractor and use excess minerals on lings
- One tell is that he'll have less speedlings than a speedling all-inner has and he'll try to hide them for the baneling morph.
- Try not to let him morph banelings too close to your base. Scare him away and make him have to make them far away and then waddle back. But be careful since you won't have speed on your lings.
- Try to have a good overlord spread to help you spot morphing banelings.
- When the speedling/baneling attack comes, pretend like you're a terran that has marine/tank and is running from banelings. You attack with your lings until the banelings get close, then you kite the banelings around your roaches so your roaches can kill the banelings. It's also great if they blow up on your roaches. Once all the banelings are dead, kill off his remaining lings with roach/lings.
If you hold off either of these all-ins, you should win. You can pump drones much faster than he can and you have two bases already. Make sure not to mass roaches and then move out without roach speed though, he can ling runby your minerals.
If you scout a fast expand:
- make 2 queens when pool finishes
- 6-8 lings for scouting purposes. If he makes lings too for scouting, send 1 of yours for scouting and send the rest back to defend.
- metabolic boost with first 100 gas
- use those lings to find out if he's droning or not, making a bunch of lings or built a baneling nest or roach warren or lair
- If you scout him droning, you have two choices: a) drone yourself or b) make about 12-16 more lings and try to punish him if he made too many drones or went straight for roaches without making any speedlings
- Next, you basically want to know the timing of his roach warren and make yours a little bit after him
- Now you're in a macro game, tech to lair, get your 2nd and 3rd gas, throw down 2 evo chambers if you want
- Drone up as much as you can while keeping tabs on his roach count. Your goal is to keep your roach count just lower than his count so that if he attacks you can make more while he moves across the map.
- Eventually take your 4th gas, take your 3rd base, maybe make a macro hatch, keep massing roaches or transition into roach/infestor or roach/hydra (roach/hydra may be obsolete now)
- Eventually you can add ultras or broodlords, idk, I never make it that far.
Replays
Holding a 9 pool with 15 hatch
Dimaga style 6 pool + drones vs. 15 hatch
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Thanks for the info. I will try this once I'm done with my campaign achievements.
One question, though. Will this work on Xel'Naga Caverns, or is the map too small for it?
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Works on most maps. Maybe not scrap station, probably better to open 15 extractor/14 pool or some variant. Gets a little harder the farther your hatch is from the ramp, but still doable I think.
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Im seeing more people go muta now. Is it just me?
Also, how do I deal with it? Infestors dont counter them as well as tey use to.
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this has been bothering me too, im a plat zerg and every single zerg i face now does the exact same crap each time, 10 pool, then make an inbase hatch, then make 40-60 speedlings, then a move to ur base, then make 50 speedlings for defense with 1-4 spines, then go for mutas
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i go 15 hatch, 15 gas, 15 pool. first 100 gas, speed, take one off gas, next 50 gas get banes.
i only do this because whenever i 15hatch, so many noobs try to all in with speedlings/banes, so you're really safe against that. if he goes 1 base roach, he wont be able to fight off 2 hatches of speedlings for awhile, and by then you'll have your own roach den. and if he goes 15hatch himself, you can pressure really hard with speedling/banes if he just has speedlings. the only bad thing about my build is, 14gas/14pool he gets speed shortly before you do, i recently had a spine+queen on ramp to buy time until my banes/speed is done. (even if he goes 14/14 into 20baneling, my build holds it). gl hf
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On March 31 2011 14:17 Atrox wrote:
Im seeing more people go muta now. Is it just me?
Also, how do I deal with it? Infestors dont counter them as well as tey use to.
I don't know, I just find mutas so easy to deal with. 3 Queens is sufficient to hold off the first 5-6 if you use transfuse. Infestors + Hydra or Queen or Infested terrans can kill infinity mutas, and mutas cost so much money. This makes going mutas so risky because you can lose your million dollar army to a well placed fungal growth. If your opponent does go mutas, punish him by making roach/infestor and pushing his base, because if he has mutas, he shouldn't have much of a ground army.
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very informative post, well done
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On March 31 2011 14:26 Yacashui wrote:
this has been bothering me too, im a plat zerg and every single zerg i face now does the exact same crap each time, 10 pool, then make an inbase hatch, then make 40-60 speedlings, then a move to ur base, then make 50 speedlings for defense with 1-4 spines, then go for mutas
you need to scout man if the hatch is acually inbase (..!?) then its pretty obvious whats coming. just go early banelings to counter.
and the mutas.. as soon as lair is up, build an overseer and scout his tech. later use 2 overseers to fly over his bases and contaminate his hatches, and keep checking his tech. it might be easier for you to remember to scout if they have a purpose like that. my rule of thumb is: the moment I see a spire I gather my roaches and go for the kill. I build a hydra den and infestation pit as well just in case some freak occurrence occure and he doesnt die. mutas isnt viable as long as you stay on top of your scouting. mutas are only good zvz if they catch you with your pants down completely, dont let that happen and you'll be fine.
If you let him get mutas out in numbers, and he starts massing, infestors are still as good as they used to be. just practice laying down a new fungal every 4 sec, and they are just as locked in as they used to be.
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When I played zerg (protoss now because I have no soul) I would go 15 hatch on 4 player maps, only to get killed by a 10pool spinecrawler rush. I could never get anything out fast enough, so I stopped and just did a safe speedling expand every game. If i ever do switch back to zerg (one more buff and I will) I'll look to this thread for guidance.
Good Work!
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good post, i never open FE becouse im afraid of all ins with lings 
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Could you give replays of defending 6/7 pool with drones? The micro is such a huge part of it that it's hard to get a feel of what you need to do just by reading words.
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On April 02 2011 11:41 Najda wrote:
Could you give replays of defending 6/7 pool with drones? The micro is such a huge part of it that it's hard to get a feel of what you need to do just by reading words.
Sure, I just added a replay to the OP. It's a 9 pool replay, but it works against 6 and 7 pool as well.
One thing to note on xel'naga is that you need to scout with your first overlord the way I do in this replay. You need to first send it to your gold expansion and then towards your opponents natural. This allows you to scout the 6 lings and cancel your hatchery in time.
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Did you watch Dimaga vs Nestea?
+ Show Spoiler +Dimaga 10 pool double spines and all drones -2. Nestea is completely unable to hold it with 15 hatch. Did Nestea make a mistake here? I always 9 drone scout when hatching first to avoid this.
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On April 02 2011 12:26 samuraibael wrote:Did you watch Dimaga vs Nestea? + Show Spoiler +Dimaga 10 pool double spines and all drones -2. Nestea is completely unable to hold it with 15 hatch. Did Nestea make a mistake here? I always 9 drone scout when hatching first to avoid this.
nawh just a build order loss lol
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On April 02 2011 15:04 Chinesewonder wrote:
Thanks. Subbed
What does subbed mean?
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On April 02 2011 12:26 samuraibael wrote:Did you watch Dimaga vs Nestea? + Show Spoiler +Dimaga 10 pool double spines and all drones -2. Nestea is completely unable to hold it with 15 hatch. Did Nestea make a mistake here? I always 9 drone scout when hatching first to avoid this.
Just watched it.
I don't know if it can hold a 9 pool with drones brought along. I've never tested it.
I think in that case, it might be better to stall longer, rather than engage the building spine crawlers. The longer you stall, the better it is for you, because your opponent is even more all-in that usual. I'd be interested to see how not even attacking the spine crawler works and just continuing to mine minerals while scaring off the lings and drones when they get near. Then when pool finishes, you'll have so much money, so build 6 lings, a queen and a spine crawler or 2. Keep stalling until you have more lings then your opponent.
Maybe I'll test it out soon and let you know the results.
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Are you gonna maybe still do that?
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That looks good, but how do you survive a baneling bust that skips ling speed? you won't have roaches out and you only have 1 queen?
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This build seems like the build blade55555 posted about, with some slight variations such as gas timing and unit production. In case you want to review his post the URL it is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
Going to try your build out also to see which one better suits me. Good job on the post.
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This is probably the best topic I've seen about ZVZ. (12 weeks doesn't count.)
Well done.
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Very helpful thread. I personally struggle mostly with ZvZ mainly because I'm one of those players who makes all roaches after expansion is down and then get punished by speedlings.
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On March 31 2011 14:26 Yacashui wrote:
this has been bothering me too, im a plat zerg and every single zerg i face now does the exact same crap each time, 10 pool, then make an inbase hatch, then make 40-60 speedlings, then a move to ur base, then make 50 speedlings for defense with 1-4 spines, then go for mutas
out of curiosity.. What are you doing during the 5 mins he's massing speedlings off of one base?
You should be able to drone to 17-18, and mass ling/bane off two mining bases and slaughter him before he drops a spine
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Nice writeup, I learned all this from ret on MrBitters 12 weeks with the pro a while ago, but its nice to see it written out so well and to jog my memory ;D
Also, I hadn't watched the Dimaga vs Nestea game, and having watched it now, was pretty good I must say. Great BO3 of ZvZ =)
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The replay in OP doesn't really do 9pool justice, The 9pooler wastes 4 drones making spines that really do nothing, if he hadn't wasted the drones and just had attacked with the lings he would be ahead in drones after the fact. In upper diamond I end up having to deal with a ton of 10pools that just end up badly for me. Should we just run our drones around off creep until pool pops and we have lings of our own, or what?
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I can usually survive initially if they 9 pool spine and I 15 hatch but typically I wind up behind and lose a few minutes later assuming that the other zerg knows what they're doing. If they do a dimaga-esque drone pull and build the spine in my base I don't think there's any way to hold if with a 15 hatch unless they somehow screw something up. The matchup is really frustrating me lately honestly because it feels so paper rock scissorsy. If I do a gas pool build at a regular time I feel like I'm behind against a 15 hatch player (depends on the map of course, scrap, xel-naga, and close position metal or shattered I don't think you can get away with hatch first, the verdict is still out on tal-darim because it's hard to block the choke into your base in time).
I'm starting to experiment with the 11 overpool build as I think it offers some flexibility but the verdict is still out.
I also want to say that I find using spanishiwa's no gas style more useful than gas on 17, you build 4+ queens and use those to plug your ramp against banelings and they can transfuse spine crawlers. You also don't lose a drone building a roach warren and you save larvae for more lings/drones as queens are obviously larvaless. The tradeoff is that it's harder to scout what the other player is doing but that's where good ovie positioning comes in.
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On May 08 2011 14:38 proxY_ wrote:
I can usually survive initially if they 9 pool spine and I 15 hatch but typically I wind up behind and lose a few minutes later assuming that the other zerg knows what they're doing. If they do a dimaga-esque drone pull and build the spine in my base I don't think there's any way to hold if with a 15 hatch unless they somehow screw something up. The matchup is really frustrating me lately honestly because it feels so paper rock scissorsy. If I do a gas pool build at a regular time I feel like I'm behind against a 15 hatch player (depends on the map of course, scrap, xel-naga, and close position metal or shattered I don't think you can get away with hatch first, the verdict is still out on tal-darim because it's hard to block the choke into your base in time).
I'm starting to experiment with the 11 overpool build as I think it offers some flexibility but the verdict is still out.
I also want to say that I find using spanishiwa's no gas style more useful than gas on 17, you build 4+ queens and use those to plug your ramp against banelings and they can transfuse spine crawlers. You also don't lose a drone building a roach warren and you save larvae for more lings/drones as queens are obviously larvaless. The tradeoff is that it's harder to scout what the other player is doing but that's where good ovie positioning comes in.
Go for a normal gas/pool build but scout on 9 to block a fast expo. You end up either ahead or even. Goodluck. (~1000 master at the moment)
It makes games less rock paper scissor
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On May 08 2011 14:53 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 14:38 proxY_ wrote:
I can usually survive initially if they 9 pool spine and I 15 hatch but typically I wind up behind and lose a few minutes later assuming that the other zerg knows what they're doing. If they do a dimaga-esque drone pull and build the spine in my base I don't think there's any way to hold if with a 15 hatch unless they somehow screw something up. The matchup is really frustrating me lately honestly because it feels so paper rock scissorsy. If I do a gas pool build at a regular time I feel like I'm behind against a 15 hatch player (depends on the map of course, scrap, xel-naga, and close position metal or shattered I don't think you can get away with hatch first, the verdict is still out on tal-darim because it's hard to block the choke into your base in time).
I'm starting to experiment with the 11 overpool build as I think it offers some flexibility but the verdict is still out.
I also want to say that I find using spanishiwa's no gas style more useful than gas on 17, you build 4+ queens and use those to plug your ramp against banelings and they can transfuse spine crawlers. You also don't lose a drone building a roach warren and you save larvae for more lings/drones as queens are obviously larvaless. The tradeoff is that it's harder to scout what the other player is doing but that's where good ovie positioning comes in. Go for a normal gas/pool build but scout on 9 to block a fast expo. You end up either ahead or even. Goodluck. (~1000 master at the moment) It makes games less rock paper scissor
That's the safe opener, but I believe 15 hatch is a little bit better versus a 14 pool, provided you know how to defend against various stuff. In a lot of maps you can't expect the 9 scout to block a fast expo.
If i feel confident against the opponent I would definitely go 14 pool. But if it's against someone you think will give a good fight, it's nice to have the 15 expand instead of the pool-first.
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Spanishiwa has actually been doing a 13 hatch 15 pool lately, it works out economically because of the extra larvae that you're getting earlier from the earlier hatch. It's also much harder to block it from going down. On maps where I'm sure I can get the hatchery block (xelnaga and scrap specifically) I feel it's risky to hatch first, particularly on scrap but on xel-naga too. I'm still trying to figure the matchup out.
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Im pretty sure theres a build that goes something like 13 gas 12 pool into mass speedlings that cant be stopped if you go 15 hatch on most maps. It should be added cause im seeing it more often lately.
Edit: Its 10 gas 10 pool
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Thank you this is exactly what I need. I get my ass handed to me way too much when I get early pressure with my hatch first.
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Good news, I added a replay to the OP of me holding off a 6 pool + drones with a 15 hatch.
Dimaga style 6 pool + drones vs. 15 hatch
Like I thought, early pools with drones pulled as well make the attack super all-in. This means that every second you can delay makes his attack weaker and your defense stronger. So my plan was to avoid fighting for as long as possible until I was sure that I would win.
Notes about the replay:
- Instead of saving up larva for zerglings, I keep making drones until 18/18
- I cancel the hatch and the extractor
- I get supply blocked at 18/18 by accident. This was not on purpose, don't do it!
- I make a spine crawler, a queen and 8 lings
- I don't worry about his spine crawler finishing or him killing my spawning pool
- I delay as long as possible until I'm sure my force will beat his
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this is a good and informative guide except for the part on 6pool, which is good but very misleading advice and the replay is silly.
a 6 pool drone all-in is a weaker attack than a 10-ling 6pool by a lot, and this guy blindly went to the wrong direction on a big map. Your advice on how to handle early pools is spot-on, but you need to note that equal micro withstanding, you should be losing these games. 15hatch is extremely greedy on all but the largest maps, and you will lose unless he sends all his drones.
6 pool is simply a build order counter to 15 hatch, and there's nothing you can do to beat it unless the 6 pooler egregiously messes up or stupidly sends all his drones too, which is the case in the replay you post (and as it seems, where/why you have most of that information).
From a recent NASL game:+ Show Spoiler + Sheth vs Moon game2 on 18/19 May, Moon sends all but 2 drones like an idiot, and gets thoroughly stomped by a 15hatch build. If he had kept his drones at home, he'd have handily won. NEVER send your drones in a ling all-in unless it's to build spines, and then ONLY send the number of spines you can build.
100% 15 hatch should lose to 6 pool. It's possible to hold 10000 lings with 1 spine crawler if the opponent holds position on the lings and then drops from the game, but I don't see how that could be considered a viable counter.
I do think it's possible with vastly superior micro than your opponent to hold a 10 pool, but anything earlier is almost a guaranteed loss, and 6 pool more so. In the replay you posted, your opponent made three large mistakes:
1) He sent all his drones (and therefore wasn't able to make the 2 extra sets of lings). 100% a 6 pool drone all-in is weaker than a standard 6-pool. 4 lings have more dps than 7 drones, and removes your ability to reinforce.
2) He blindly attacked the wrong location first.
3) His pool was 3 seconds late (as were his lings). Not normally a big deal except when you're doing a 45 second build.
On May 08 2011 16:00 skindzer wrote:
Im pretty sure theres a build that goes something like 13 gas 12 pool into mass speedlings that cant be stopped if you go 15 hatch on most maps. It should be added cause im seeing it more often lately.
Edit: Its 10 gas 10 pool
10 gas 11 pool is more efficient than 10 gas 10 pool, as you can't make use of the earlier pool timing via earlier speed (and if you put 3 on gas instead of 2, you can't afford the queen immediately).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192260
That was my default zvz opener for months and I still use it quite frequently. This is the fastest way to get the most speedlings by time T in a given game.
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Wow
Thank you so much, I have been looking for a more or less safe and at the same time economic build for ZvZ! Are there maps where this build like instalooses against other openings ?
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Question:
Why not use banelings to defend? If the only thing that you can lose to is mass speedling or speedling/bling, wont you have more larvae than you opponent and be able to out mass him?
EDIT: Forgot to say, great guide. Keep it up!
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Hmmmm. My biggest question is defending against a 14/14 pure speedling aggression. Will committing to your first 3-5 roaches allow you to switch back to lings fast enough, and avoid dying? Also, doesn't defending with slow lings (and thus having no map control) pretty much guarantee that you'll be behind economically?
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Terrible thread. I can name a lot of builds that would do terrible terrible damage to this.
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On July 09 2011 10:05 Lobotomist wrote:
Hmmmm. My biggest question is defending against a 14/14 pure speedling aggression. Will committing to your first 3-5 roaches allow you to switch back to lings fast enough, and avoid dying? Also, doesn't defending with slow lings (and thus having no map control) pretty much guarantee that you'll be behind economically?
Yes, in most cases you'll be fine making those first 3-5 roaches. The only time you won't will be on close position metal or shattered, if he can run the lings into your main before the roaches get to the ramp. (And even then you might be ok if you pull drones).
After the first 3-5 roaches, use your next 100 gas to get metabolic boost. Then takes guys off gas and build nothing but speedlings until your scouting overlord behind his natural mineral line sees him produce drones. If he all-ins you, you will win. If he goes back to economy, your economies will be pretty even, but you'll have your roach warren before him and have a head start on roach production (3-5 already produced).
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On July 09 2011 10:27 loveeholicce wrote:
Terrible thread. I can name a lot of builds that would do terrible terrible damage to this.
Oh yeah, like what? And will they work on all maps or just some?
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On July 09 2011 09:49 0AtRi0 wrote:
Question:
Why not use banelings to defend? If the only thing that you can lose to is mass speedling or speedling/bling, wont you have more larvae than you opponent and be able to out mass him?
EDIT: Forgot to say, great guide. Keep it up!
To be honest, the main reason is because I dislike speedling/baneling vs. speedling/baneling micro. I think I'm not alone in this dislike so hopefully other people can benefit from this build. I'm sure banelings instead of roaches is viable, I just haven't refined a build for it.
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On July 12 2011 02:03 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 10:27 loveeholicce wrote:
Terrible thread. I can name a lot of builds that would do terrible terrible damage to this. Oh yeah, like what? And will they work on all maps or just some?
he is trolling, ignore
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15 vs. 15 its really safe to throw down a bane nest, and just make a couple defensive banes. With good micro you can come out ahead and then pop out some roaches, Against all ins and/or agressive ling/bane play. Otherwise you are just slightly behind a roach or two.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.scstrats.com/images/zvz.png)
