EPTIdra vs. Cruncher Summary and Analysis (Spoilers) - Page 4
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
The other reason it's frustrating is zerg is is terribly equipped for this style. Hydras and roaches, amdist the enemy sim-city, with the worst (albeit cheapest and most plentiful after some expensive upgrades) dropships in the game, just aren't good units to inflict quick economic damage and escape. Zerg with roach/hydra/overlord/corruptor just feels like a terrible version of MMM+viking. Comparing drop harass from Zerg against protoss to the Terran version makes me think Zerg is playing with entirely the wrong composition in this matchup, but I can't think of a better one. I do think that trying to play Zerg like a poor man's Terran is a recipie for disaster. | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
On March 29 2011 14:05 Anihc wrote: He won after the first drop killed all of Cruncher's probes in his main. There is nothing special about transitioning to corruptors and roaches to counter colossus. In your analysis of my analysis you said that in game two Idra did not drone while attacking. between the hydra drop and the roach corrupter attack, Idra got another 10ish drones and mining his third. During the attack he grabs his fifth base. I was pointing out the fact that "he kept expanding and doing some limited droning" was special. Not the transition to roach corrupter. A lesser Zerg would have just pumped non stop units, but this was an example of how to manage your economy while doing big attacks. I feel like you only read the first parts of what I say  and a lone tear of loneliness ' | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 29 2011 23:49 Onos wrote: True but it is also quite possible to do something in order to 'not die now' and be pretty sure to 'die later'. Being a canadian, I'll make a hockey analogy: You are in the last minute of the game, losing 3-2, faceoff at center - you can take out the goaltender now (and have a good chance of dieing now by being scored on) or keep the goaltender in and hope you can score 5 on 5 (but your chances are lower to equal the score since it is 5 on 5) and you die later when the game ends. As I said earlier - what did IdrA see? zealot/sentry. 90-95% of the time that is a P fake probe. Ok, I enjoy taking on these analogies  As it was fairly early in the game, I'd contend the score was 2-2 right before half-time (you do have half-time? :/). So do you take off your goaltender temporarily/drone more (ok this might not be possible) and hope to go into the 2nd half 3-2 up? Or do you leave him on/build units and it stays 2-2 (push comes and you defend it equally) or maybe you go into the 2nd half 3-2 down (he was hard eco/teching). The giant extra factor in the equation is if you take your goaltender off and they score then the referee ENDS THE GAME IMMEDIATELY in their favour. Risk/reward seems bad. | ||
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Nakas
United States148 Posts
Obviously Idra made mistakes, no one is perfect at this game yet. But Idra made high-level mistakes, like not striking the perfect hydra/corrupter balance vs the deathball in G1, or not reading the protoss's intentions correctly in G3 based on his limited scouting information. His win in G2 was achieved with pretty darn impressive macro while simultaneously doing multi-pronged drop harass. Cruncher, on the other hand, was making beginner mistakes that I would expect to see in diamond league. He had his entire army one hotkey, including his colossi. I'm sure this is part of the reason why his response to drops was so bad in G2. I've never seen a pro get so completely overwhelmed by a basic double-pronged attack before. Any good pro would have seen it the moment the blip appeared on the minimap and would have evacuated workers, but Cruncher often didn't even notice until his probes started dying, it's as if he doesn't even watch his minimap. His wins, on the other hand, were just meh. I feel like Cruncher showed no ability to micro, no ability to macro, and no ability to multitask or do multi-pronged attacks. In the end, I feel like the wins were achieved via basic protoss builds and pushes that pretty much any diamond player with 50+ APM could do with similar effectiveness. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
he had to decide either droning up, bringing him on 3-3 with the risk of dying instantly OR build units, getting further behind to 2-4 but stay in the game until it is over aka losing later on. There is no "comeback" for Z. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Anyway, you still have more chance of winning 2-4 than immediate knockout. | ||
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Boardin
234 Posts
 cant wait to watch more games of idra's beautiful creep spread and beautiful timings | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On March 30 2011 00:37 confusedcrib wrote: In your analysis of my analysis you said that in game two Idra did not drone while attacking. between the hydra drop and the roach corrupter attack, Idra got another 10ish drones and mining his third. During the attack he grabs his fifth base. I was pointing out the fact that "he kept expanding and doing some limited droning" was special. Not the transition to roach corrupter. A lesser Zerg would have just pumped non stop units, but this was an example of how to manage your economy while doing big attacks. I feel like you only read the first parts of what I say and a lone tear of loneliness 'Then stop saying useless things. Regardless, it doesn't matter since IdrA already won then. A lesser Zerg would have just pumped non stop units and still easily won the game just the same. Yes I know Idra has great macro and multitasking abilities, I mention that in my comments as well. But honestly it doesn't deserve any special mention, multitasking is required for any player and expanding/making drones behind launching an attack is very common. Idra did a great job of keeping the pressure up with multiple simultaneous drops at each end of Cruncher's base, but I did not see any evidence of Idra doing any sort of insane micro at multiple locations at once. Smart, solid play? Yes. Boxer-esque or Tushin-esque jaw-dropping play? No. | ||
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ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
On March 30 2011 00:41 Nakas wrote: This match was a case study in what's wrong with ZvP in patch 1.2. Obviously Idra made mistakes, no one is perfect at this game yet. But Idra made high-level mistakes, like not striking the perfect hydra/corrupter balance vs the deathball in G1, or not reading the protoss's intentions correctly in G3 based on his limited scouting information. His win in G2 was achieved with pretty darn impressive macro while simultaneously doing multi-pronged drop harass. Cruncher, on the other hand, was making beginner mistakes that I would expect to see in diamond league. He had his entire army one hotkey, including his colossi. I'm sure this is part of the reason why his response to drops was so bad in G2. I've never seen a pro get so completely overwhelmed by a basic double-pronged attack before. Any good pro would have seen it the moment the blip appeared on the minimap and would have evacuated workers, but Cruncher often didn't even notice until his probes started dying, it's as if he doesn't even watch his minimap. His wins, on the other hand, were just meh. I feel like Cruncher showed no ability to micro, no ability to macro, and no ability to multitask or do multi-pronged attacks. In the end, I feel like the wins were achieved via basic protoss builds and pushes that pretty much any diamond player with 50+ APM could do with similar effectiveness. I agree. Watching the whole army move as, literally, a ball was very disappointing. Cruncher is good, but somehow it does seem as though it was more a matter of the P units just being far, far superior than anything the Z could come up with. I think the poster above me was right when he said Hydra/Roach/Corruptor is like a poor man's MM/Viking. It doesn't seem to work very well against the Protoss ball, and it's built around throwing more resources at the ball than the ball is worth--it hopes that production can win out in the end. I don't think that strategy can work, ultimately, as P players get better and mix more Voids into their army. Granted, I'm just a Diamond level Random player, but those are my thoughts. I don't think Idra is the best Z player in the world, and I'm no fanboy of his, but it was distressing to see how relatively minor mistakes--misjudging the P's intentions, attacking *slightly* wrong--on his part meant he got crushed whereas the P player got live on 1 hotkey and still prove rather effective. | ||
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Goliath-sc
France44 Posts
In the game on shakuras : Some are saying IdrA did not have enough corruptors. The equation is the following if you make too many corruptors : Corruptors hit the void rays Colossi kill the zerg ground army remaining corruptors kill the colossi zerg's ground army is gone (due to colossi, but also due to having too much corrupters) There's no chance of killing 12-14 void rays without really alot of corruptors, and these last ones don't shoot ground anyway... whether you like it or not, whether it's the subject here or not the protoss late game is still imbalanced and we're seeing it in alot of high level games. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On March 30 2011 00:41 Nakas wrote: This match was a case study in what's wrong with ZvP in patch 1.2. Obviously Idra made mistakes, no one is perfect at this game yet. But Idra made high-level mistakes, like not striking the perfect hydra/corrupter balance vs the deathball in G1, or not reading the protoss's intentions correctly in G3 based on his limited scouting information. His win in G2 was achieved with pretty darn impressive macro while simultaneously doing multi-pronged drop harass. Cruncher, on the other hand, was making beginner mistakes that I would expect to see in diamond league. He had his entire army one hotkey, including his colossi. I'm sure this is part of the reason why his response to drops was so bad in G2. I've never seen a pro get so completely overwhelmed by a basic double-pronged attack before. Any good pro would have seen it the moment the blip appeared on the minimap and would have evacuated workers, but Cruncher often didn't even notice until his probes started dying, it's as if he doesn't even watch his minimap. His wins, on the other hand, were just meh. I feel like Cruncher showed no ability to micro, no ability to macro, and no ability to multitask or do multi-pronged attacks. In the end, I feel like the wins were achieved via basic protoss builds and pushes that pretty much any diamond player with 50+ APM could do with similar effectiveness. Idra made mistakes that Diamond / Low Master Z players make all the time, which is sit back camp and macro up hoping to overwhelm a 200/200 deathball, but allowing it to move into the center of the map. Idra made a boatload of mistakes in G1 that could have easily won him the game : 1) Hydra drop even on Shakuras is very good especially the way Cruncher opened. Any Hydra drop in his main would have allowed Idra to do serious damage, if not outright win the game. Cruncher was spending all of his early gas on fast tech into VR/Colossus; he had almost no Gateway units. He only had 2 Colossus when a normal Hydra drop happens, so it would have been quite easy for Idra to win (or at least do BIG damage). 2) He allowed Cruncher to take an easy 3rd without any kind of punishment / pressure. Anyone who argues otherwise has honestly never played PvZ at a decent level, because Cruncher took that 3rd BEFORE Colossus were even out (before 11 minutes was when it first came up). This type of play would have gotten stomped by Nestea, July, or any other Z who knows how to play early to mid game aggression. Cruncher tailored his build SPECIFICALLY for Idra. It was painfully obvious that Cruncher knew Idra would not try and attack until it was way, way, way too late. 3) Idra's hive tech was obscenely late; he needed to get Hive tech faster to deal with that deathball, as even though Ultras and Broodlords die to VRs, they are the only units that can do some damage (other than Roaches) to a deathball when it is maxed (other than Infestors who can manage to get close without getting swiped by a Colossus). | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
The builds Cruncher did were EXTREME coinflips. The Build from Game 1 dies only not to Hydra Drop. The build is obvious, you go Air for defense, then you build Colossus to be safe against Hydras. The problem though: You would die to any other aggression (what Idra just doesnt do at all, what is bad imo). Mondragons Games are an example, what he could have done. Against Crunchers Style, he would pretty much won instantly. (Actually, Zeerax and Cruncher did the exact same strategy. Zeerax did play it worse. But i think he would have won 1 game against idra) If you dont go Colossus right away, then you die to Hydras. Even if you go Colossus and miss the timing, you could die pretty easy to Hydras. TL;DR Cruncher Strategy dies to every MULTI-PRONGED aggression in the time before your first Colossus is out. But Cruncher was intelligent, he knew Idra would not attack. I tried so hard to get a solid PvZ, saw this strategy (it is pretty much Standard) and guess what? I died to every Zerg who attacked me (and dropped me). (3000 masters) InControls / Naniwas / MCs Styles are so much safer and doesn't rely on the Zerg not attacking. | ||
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Nakas
United States148 Posts
On March 30 2011 01:11 Goliath-sc wrote: when a protoss gets 200 food with the right unit composition, it becomes nearly impossible to kill it. Blizzard admitted the problem, but did not fix it. They've addressed it with the infestor changes in patch 1.3. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On March 30 2011 01:15 gnutz wrote: If you want to check real imbalance, look at rets games (even though he could have done better) and not at Idras. The builds Cruncher did were EXTREME coinflips. The Build from Game 1 dies only not to Hydra Drop. The build is obvious, you go Air for defense, then you build Colossus to be safe against Hydras. The problem though: You would die to any other aggression (what Idra just doesnt do at all, what is bad imo). Mondragons Games are an example, what he could have done. Against Crunchers Style, he would pretty much won instantly. (Actually, Zeerax and Cruncher did the exact same strategy. Zeerax did play it worse. But i think he would have won 1 game against idra) If you dont go Colossus right away, then you die to Hydras. Even if you go Colossus and miss the timing, you could die pretty easy to Hydras. TL;DR Cruncher Strategy dies to every MULTI-PRONGED aggression in the time before your first Colossus is out. But Cruncher was intelligent, he knew Idra would not attack. I tried so hard to get a solid PvZ, saw this strategy (it is pretty much Standard) and guess what? I died to every Zerg who attacked me (and dropped me). (3000 masters) InControls / Naniwas / MCs Styles are so much safer and doesn't rely on the Zerg not attacking. Exactly, I don't know how you can open Forge FE = > Stargate and do no damage then get away with it, while also taking a fast 3rd AND teching hard. | ||
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abominable
101 Posts
http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133215 IdrA: "I just went on to NA server to bash some newbies" JP: "So is Cruncher one of these newbies?" IdrA: "Yep" http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2689991&postcount=152 "idra: you're pretty talented" (after game 1) "idra: boy it must suck when skill matters" (after game 2) idra is lucky that cruncher doesn't rename himself "idra went crunch". i don't doubt that idra is a great player... but he hasn't won much so i don't think he has any right to treat more successful players like they're 'bad'. officially, cruncher is better than idra.. idra just has to live with that until he wins something. | ||
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Onos
Canada107 Posts
On March 30 2011 01:28 abominable wrote: some people are so ignorant... you don't know the half of idra's BM towards cruncher. http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133215 IdrA: "I just went on to NA server to bash some newbies" JP: "So is Cruncher one of these newbies?" IdrA: "Yep" http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2689991&postcount=152 "idra: you're pretty talented" (after game 1) "idra: boy it must suck when skill matters" (after game 2) idra is lucky that cruncher doesn't rename himself "idra went crunch". What does that have to do with the strategy forums? Yes IdrA does have very very BM. Totally irrelevant when it comes to the actual games. | ||
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Dreaming11
United Kingdom105 Posts
Sorry to bite your head off but its really annoying reading through different threads and seeing the same stupid comments for and against IdrA over and over again. edit: posted before I saw Onos post, oops! | ||
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abominable
101 Posts
you can't avoid the obvious talking point and make a SUMMARY of the series without mentioning the BM. fact is, idra didn't give credit to cruncher for his play. cruncher deserves credit for his play because he played better. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On March 30 2011 01:15 superstartran wrote: Idra made a boatload of mistakes in G1 that could have easily won him the game : 1) Hydra drop even on Shakuras is very good especially the way Cruncher opened. Any Hydra drop in his main would have allowed Idra to do serious damage, if not outright win the game. Cruncher was spending all of his early gas on fast tech into VR/Colossus; he had almost no Gateway units. He only had 2 Colossus when a normal Hydra drop happens, so it would have been quite easy for Idra to win (or at least do BIG damage). Hydra drop play is indeed strong against CrunCher's build. However if you read CrunCher's post game interview, he says that he knew drop play was a weakness to his build and he had practiced specifically against it. Had Idra used drops in game 1, I think it would have been a close battle and not instant win for Idra like you suggest. Cruncher's stargate units would have scouted out the drop coming from miles away, giving him time to warp in extra gateway units to defend. And having 2 colossus in time to defend a hydra drop is huge, do you not realize how weak hydras are off creep against colossus, especially inside someone else's main where they'll have to walk through a maze of buildings? On March 30 2011 01:15 superstartran wrote: 2) He allowed Cruncher to take an easy 3rd without any kind of punishment / pressure. Anyone who argues otherwise has honestly never played PvZ at a decent level, because Cruncher took that 3rd BEFORE Colossus were even out (before 11 minutes was when it first came up). This type of play would have gotten stomped by Nestea, July, or any other Z who knows how to play early to mid game aggression. Cruncher tailored his build SPECIFICALLY for Idra. It was painfully obvious that Cruncher knew Idra would not try and attack until it was way, way, way too late. Cruncher also tailored his build to the map. He got that super early 3rd on Shakuras because it is super easy to defend. Stargate opener gives him great scouting against any mid game aggression, and a forcefield on the ramp is all it takes to block attacks on his 3rd. Again, Cruncher stated in his interview that his goal was to get to that 3 base colossus/void ray, and "found all the flaws to a quick 3rd." Do you think he just prayed that Idra wouldn't attack him early on? As further evidence of this, watch the beginning of game 2 closely - Cruncher sends out a 2nd probe to scout after not finding Idra right next to him. He's scouting for a 6 pool! Yes Cruncher knows Idra's style and is playing specifically against it, but in no way is he just doing coin flips. On March 30 2011 01:15 superstartran wrote: 3) Idra's hive tech was obscenely late; he needed to get Hive tech faster to deal with that deathball, as even though Ultras and Broodlords die to VRs, they are the only units that can do some damage (other than Roaches) to a deathball when it is maxed (other than Infestors who can manage to get close without getting swiped by a Colossus). I'm not sure what game you're playing, but ultras and brood lords are not the answer to colossus/VR. Infestors are great, roaches are great, corruptors are great. And when I say great, I don't mean a 200/200 roach/corruptor/infestor can beat 200/200 colossus/VR/stalker, but it can damage that protoss deathball enough so that a remax to 200/200 can finish it off. | ||
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