EPTAnd don't forget, this is an one base all-in. Even if you manage to kill a good amount of drones, the zerg will be ahead.
[D] 3 Gate Blink Staler w/ Warp Prism+Sentry - Page 2
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
And don't forget, this is an one base all-in. Even if you manage to kill a good amount of drones, the zerg will be ahead. | ||
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gurumaia
33 Posts
On March 01 2011 00:10 mamuto wrote: well in that case you don't even have to do purely stalkers.. mix in zealots. And have 4 sentries to constantly FF the ramp. Without blink this can hit a lot earlier :S That's what I was thinking. It'll hit way earlier, and you can warp in some zealots on the high ground (I wouldn't bring them all the way across the map, since they're slower than stalkers) and have some sentries inside the prism the moment you get there, just waiting to drop! | ||
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
Have you considered if the zerg is going for a 1-base mass speedling allin? For the 5/7RR, if you are spending your resources on your TC/Robo, then you are going to have a smaller army to defend. Of course, if you scout something that looks close to these builds, you can further delay your Robo/TC, but that would mean you need to keep your scout in the zerg's base for a very long time. But i see if you do get the FF off, and get the stalkers in their base, it would be pretty effective. | ||
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BoonSolo
United Kingdom74 Posts
On March 01 2011 00:14 loklok wrote: I'm about 3300 diamond and failed these kind of builds. Probably my micro isn't good enough... . The problem is that zerg has always map control. So, a good zerg has his overlords out and some lings at the towers. Ok you can clear the lings before you move out but there is always a chance that he can spot your warpprism or your blinkstalker. You also have to drop the sentry near the ramp. Then he just puts half of his army up to his main (in that period of the game that should be not a big deal) and has also some larva left. Even if you can manage to forcefield the ramp the zerg can focus the sentries and buy time until the forcefield disappears. And don't forget, this is an one base all-in. Even if you manage to kill a good amount of drones, the zerg will be ahead. The better question is how are you going to stop him from getting the FF off, sure if you see the warp prism coming you might be able to get it but if you pull everything to your main he is just going to drop it outside and then FF the ramp and attack your natural. If you split your army, Theres just no way half an army + half of your reinforcement capability is going to be able to stop a full blink stalker on 3 gate army + constant full powered reinforcement. And this is BEST CASE because if your army is weaker on any one base ie 3/4 in main and 1/4 in nat your just going to attack where it is weakest. @57corvette, as a mere 3k diamond zerg I really do feel protoss players at my level are taking a free win if i do a 1base rush as zerg, I just dont see anyway for a 5rr or 7rr to work against a decent oponent that isnt making a quick nexus. Maybe I am wrong but I think unless you scout an expansion from the zerg you arent going to do this strategy anyway. | ||
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
On March 01 2011 00:28 BoonSolo wrote: @57corvette, as a mere 3k diamond zerg I really do feel protoss players at my level are taking a free win if i do a 1base rush as zerg, I just dont see anyway for a 5rr or 7rr to work against a decent oponent that isnt making a quick nexus. Maybe I am wrong but I think unless you scout an expansion from the zerg you arent going to do this strategy anyway. Oh, you are at 3k diamond? That would explain it. Most of the 2400-2600 zergs I face these days seem to be either going for mass lings off one or two bases, or going for a quick hydralisk den. | ||
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
The better question is how are you going to stop him from getting the FF off, sure if you see the warp prism coming you might be able to get it but if you pull everything to your main he is just going to drop it outside and then FF the ramp and attack your natural. If you split your army, Theres just no way half an army + half of your reinforcement capability is going to be able to stop a full blink stalker on 3 gate army + constant full powered reinforcement. Just can't imagine. We should stay realistic. I mean, zerg should already have some tumors in front of his second hatch and can spot any aggression fairly early. Main and expansion are connected with creep. The movement speed on creep is absurd. So the facts: I have to drop a sentry near ramp -> spotted by creep / Overlord -> moving units into the main. Now i'm loading in my sentry and flying all the way around the zerg spot to attack the expansion. That is a big amount of time and will be also spotted really fast. | ||
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BoonSolo
United Kingdom74 Posts
On March 01 2011 00:31 57 Corvette wrote: Oh, you are at 3k diamond? That would explain it. Most of the 2400-2600 zergs I face these days seem to be either going for mass lings off one or two bases, or going for a quick hydralisk den. Well if you scout only 1 base after like 25 supply or so then your not going to do it anyway since it hinges on splitting them from their base if they 1 base there isnt really a point cos theyll just keep their army in the main. Quick hydra's which would be off 2 base would seem like the best counter to this tbh, but ive never opened quick hydra's vs protoss its pretty much instant lose against a lot of strategy's ie 4gate. All of this isnt even considering you dont even need blink just drop the sentry, FF the ramp and elevator into the base using warp prism could make this hit at a scarily fast time, possibly before any conventional hydra timing. I need someone around my level to test this with me tonight on EU server. | ||
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BoonSolo
United Kingdom74 Posts
On March 01 2011 00:37 loklok wrote: Just can't imagine. We should stay realistic. I mean, zerg should already have some tumors in front of his second hatch and can spot any aggression fairly early. Main and expansion are connected with creep. The movement speed on creep is absurd. So the facts: I have to drop a sentry near ramp -> spotted by creep / Overlord -> moving units into the main. Now i'm loading in my sentry and flying all the way around the zerg spot to attack the expansion. That is a big amount of time and will be also spotted really fast. So theres a few possibilities here. 1. You attack the front with your army(bring a sentry) this is going to force the zerg to bring everything down to the natural to stop your army sentry getting the ramp FF and trapping you in your main. When this is going on you drop a sentry in their base and FF the ramp, retreat and blink/elevator into the main. In this situation I think the elevator would be pretty slow, letting the zergs army do serious damage to your as you get up. So for this I think blink is better. EDIT: Hell you dont even need the sentry in the warp prism to do the FF, just FF the ramp witht eh sentry outside with your attack, retreat with blink and blink and blink into the main, set up your warp prism drop the sentry and keep the army out of his main for as long as you like. 2. You fly the warp prism in alone and the zerg see's it. he brings his roach/ling army and can either put it all in main/all in nat OR probably the best idea sit it on the ramp to try and stop the sentry getting the FF off. The problem is I now take my sentry and drop it out of roach range on the outside of the base but in range of the ramp. As the zerg now what is your move if you send everything to kill the sentry itll block you out of your main and the stalkers can blink in. You stay where you are and I FF the ramp splitting your army letting me attack the front and just kill you anyway. I dont see anyway to stop it without some hydra's and even then Im not convinced youd stop it that easily. | ||
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
On March 01 2011 00:58 BoonSolo wrote: So theres a few possibilities here. 1. You attack the front with your army(bring a sentry) this is going to force the zerg to bring everything down to the natural to stop your army sentry getting the ramp FF and trapping you in your main. When this is going on you drop a sentry in their base and FF the ramp, retreat and blink/elevator into the main. In this situation I think the elevator would be pretty slow, letting the zergs army do serious damage to your as you get up. So for this I think blink is better. 2. You fly the warp prism in alone and the zerg see's it. he brings his roach/ling army and can either put it all in main/all in nat OR probably the best idea sit it on the ramp to try and stop the sentry getting the FF off. The problem is I now take my sentry and drop it out of roach range on the outside of the base but in range of the ramp. As the zerg now what is your move if you send everything to kill the sentry itll block you out of your main and the stalkers blink in you stay where you are and I FF the ramp splitting your army letting me attack the front and just kill you anyway. I dont see anyway tostop it without some hydra's and even then Im not convinced youd stop it that easily. My thoughts to these points: You attack the front with your army(bring a sentry) this is going to force the zerg to bring everything down to the natural to stop your army sentry getting the ramp FF and trapping you in your main. FF lasts 15 seconds. If Zerg see that he will produce lings/roaches at his main. Your own army will be splitted and it will take time to run around the cliff where the prism can lift your units. You can't FF forever. If zerg brings 5 roaches out of larva he can easily pick off any sentries at is main. So you will have some seconds to deal really big dmg before zerg can enter his main because you are on one base. The other point is that you won't have many stalker because of your blink/robo tech and you won't have gas to produce endless sentries. Only blink stalker are strong because of their timing. If i have to invest for robo, wait for warpprism and have some sentries in my army, that timing advantage gets completely lost and advance to a really critical timing where the zerg want to do his first big roach/ling aggression. In conclusion: If zerg do not pay attention to his mini map and make big mistakes in micro then that all in will probably win the game. Otherwise toss will lose for sure. I don't want to assume on diamond/master level that my opponent has no micro and go for such an all-in. | ||
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BoonSolo
United Kingdom74 Posts
OR I use blink and then I can get into the main in a matter of seconds. IF I get the forcefield off I blink into your main, then there is going to be AT MOST half of the zergs roach ling army, if there was more than half then I would just attack the front with the stalkers and keep it FFd from there. Kill the nat and what units are there, afterwards My army would likely be big enough to kill the remaining zerg army. And on 2 gas geysers I most certainly can keep it FFd forever, Im going to cut stalker production to ensure I have enough forcefields to stop the zerg army ever being able to attac k my stalkers (be them in his main or his natural) The time it takes stalkers to blink into a main is a lot quicker than roaches getting produced The point of the strategy just comes down to this, if you can forcefield a zergs ramp you are either A:Blocking his full army from defending his natural B:Blocking his full army from defending his main C:Splitting his army between the 2. With blink stalkers and a warp prism for spotting, you can on most maps, attack either his main or his natural easily and keep the FF block going on indefinately by warping in more sentries using the warp prism. If its option C and his army splits you obviously attack the smaller portion, so best case scenario for the zerg is that he splits his army 50:50 and in this case there is no way half of the zergs army can stand up to 3gate blink stalker even if it is delayed by 1-2 minutes | ||
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Heyzhu
China4 Posts
Then maybe I can give you some of my thoughts. | ||
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mamuto
United States88 Posts
 With a double gas you'll be mineral starved though, and will have to start cutting probes to get it all done. I'm beginning to think a zealot heavy force (at least initially) might be better, with one gas. load up a prism with the first sentry and 3 lots, drop in main, warp in 3 or 4 more zealots and boom you have a force of 6-7 zealots beating the crap out of anything in there with a FF on the ramp. I can't wait to get home and try this out. I'll post replays when that happens. | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On March 01 2011 00:16 57 Corvette wrote: I'm sorry for being the devil's advocate here, but if you want to make a very solid strategy, then you need to have all the holes filled. Have you considered if the zerg is going for a 1-base mass speedling allin? For the 5/7RR, if you are spending your resources on your TC/Robo, then you are going to have a smaller army to defend. Of course, if you scout something that looks close to these builds, you can further delay your Robo/TC, but that would mean you need to keep your scout in the zerg's base for a very long time. But i see if you do get the FF off, and get the stalkers in their base, it would be pretty effective. Warp-in 4 sentries at your main + wall off as normal. It will look like a normal 3 gate expand. As soon as your prism is out, pick up 3/4 sentries and move to his ramp. | ||
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mamuto
United States88 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-193277.jpg) Here's a replay from last night. This is the first time I tried it out on the ladder so please excuse the pretty horrible execution. I was too amazed at how well it was working. It ended up not ending the game, but set me on such equal footing with the zerg that I felt comfortable for the rest of the game. For those who can't watch the replay, we spawned close air positions on metalopolis and I executed a build I've been working on after participating in this thread. It involves having a WP by 6:30 with 3 zealots and a sentry with 200/200 energy and 5 stalkers hitting the front. The micro involved was a little too much for me, I wasnt used to it, but... basically I scared the zerg into making lings and a spine at the front. I ran the WP in from the back, dropped zealots and sentry off in the main, FF the ramp. Now the zerg tries to kill the stalkers out front, but i fly the WP over to the edge and elevator 4 of them into the main. From here I mess up a few FFs, the queens get one of my sentries, and I lose everything to roaches. But not before taking out a lot of drones, the pool, and the roach warren. The zerg did an interesting tactic, take third when pushed with the rush, idk if its viable (I don't think he knew how to respond) I brought in 8 zealots and took it out a minute after the rush failed. I wondered why he had no units to come help and then i realized I took out the pool >.< To keep this wall of text short, this is really potent. But not without some issues: I need to work on my timings, I'm sure I can make this hit in the 6:40-7:00 mark. I floated 1.2k minerals and was gas starved off one assimilator. Definitely need to work in the second one at some point. Queens DESTROY warpprisms. Its ridiculous I barely had time to respond. Need to keep an eye on them. Maybe fight around the WP if need be or keep it far from the ledge once elevatoring is done. Sentries are SUPER important and way too fragile. This is the most pivotal point of the build, if they go down, the rush pretty much fails. The FF micro involved is pretty brutal, you almost always have to watch the ramp and sentries and make sure they don't die. Please, watch the replay, let me know if you like something or if you hate something else. I had a ton of fun that game. I'm sure the zergie didn't >.< | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Typically I would get an observer before the warp prism, but it wasn't really a refined build (random low diamond). I would follow with dark templars because why the hell not, you already have the tech. Overall I don't think it's bad, but it's a little overly sophisticated and risky when so often all you need is a good timing push (at my level). I'll try to find some replays when I come back. | ||
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mamuto
United States88 Posts
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On February 28 2011 23:22 BoonSolo wrote: Ok so Tester did it thats pretty awesome. If theres any protoss players can they tell me how long this would delay the standard 3 gate blink stalker push. And as a zerg player how do I even stop this like I suppose if I scout it and know its coming i can get a couple of hydras out in time to defend my ramp to ever stop the sentry getting in position to FF it, but I would think if the sentry gets dropped and the ramp blocked, then the stalkers are going to kill your main or your nat and I dont see anything that you can do about it. In general terms, you can get very roughly 3.5 gas a second off of 2 maxed geysers, meaning 210 gas per game minute (conservative estimate I believe), so getting a robo either delays it by about 30 seconds, or it doesn't delay it and the Protoss player has 2 less stalkers than they could have. I was addressing the warp prism idea instead of the observer | ||
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KotaOnCue
United States180 Posts
I've also done a 2 base timing where I blink up with an actual colossus at about the 10 min mark of the game to try and take out tech and take his army out of position and then another force of usually just zealots and a couple sentries take out his natural or 3rd expansion with an FF wall and zealots wailing away at stuff. Very strong but very micro intensive and I never execute to perfection as I would like to. | ||
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