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Ok so some background knowlege, im a zerg player at 3k diamond.
I played a game last night where I lost to 3gate blink stalker because I completely missed it when I sacced my OL. When I went in I saw 3 gates and the robo and did not expect blink stalker at all.(obviously I missed the TC, but even if i'd have seen it im not sure I would have expected it)
The guy made an observer and used it to spot my base on metal so he could blink his stalkers up into my base. To me this seems like a bad build since it delays the push quite significantly. However it got me to thinking what if he made a warp prism instead of the observer.
This is theory crafting I suppose and I'm aware that this is against the rules of the strategy forum but I was a little cautious of posting this in the general forum, so hopefully this discussion is allowed. If not, I'm sorry.
So you make your warp prism and load it with a sentry send your stalkers out and get ready to react.
Send the warp prism out and try to locate his army (which is probably going to be roach/ling so your warp prism should be fairly safe to poke in an out.
As soon as you see his army you drop your sentry and forcefield his ramp either locking him in his main or out of his main. If he is in his main you then take your stalkers and go kill his natural, or if he is in his natural you use the warp prism for vision and blink your stalkers up to kill his main. You can even use the warp prism to reinforce stalkers and make more sentrys to keep the ramp FF'd indefinately
This itself is probably going to be GG, but there would even be scope for tactically letting his army up while you FF the ramp from the low ground with another sentry locking it up there while you blink out and kill his natural.
Just thinking about a protoss doing this to me is terrifying im struggling to think how I would even go about trying to stop it other than just going for a base trade (which to me doesnt really seem like a great solution)
Like even if half his army is in his main and half at his nat you'll just be able to kill off one half of it easily with your full force.
However I am not a protoss player so I cannot really test this build. I would like if someone of a decently high level could test this out themselves or vs me so we can post some replays to give this thread a bit more credability.
Hope this isnt too out of place in the strategy forum.
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Oh I seen this before. It was a PvZ game on Delta. It was an epic forcefield on the ramp at like the last second. Won him the game.
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that was tester vs "i cant remember"
that was a pretty pimp play idd. he even put a pylon on the high ground there
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Ok so Tester did it thats pretty awesome.
If theres any protoss players can they tell me how long this would delay the standard 3 gate blink stalker push.
And as a zerg player how do I even stop this like I suppose if I scout it and know its coming i can get a couple of hydras out in time to defend my ramp to ever stop the sentry getting in position to FF it, but I would think if the sentry gets dropped and the ramp blocked, then the stalkers are going to kill your main or your nat and I dont see anything that you can do about it.
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I think I win 50% of my PvZ with blink stalkers, and the other 50% by clutch forcefields on the ramp. With this strat my win ratio should be 100%.
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why don't you go and rape his base? it is not like he should have much defending it.
though i can see the problem, since Zerg can't break forcefields that early.
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What time did this hit for you with the obs? with a robo+warpprism thats an extra 400 minerals you really don't have if you're going for blink stalkers unless you delay.
Don't get me wrong, I really like this idea, I'm just looking for loopholes. aggressive sentry play like this makes me drool.
2.5k diamond protoss here, I'll play around with the idea. Would love to hear other people's thoughts on where this can fail or how it can win.
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Im not sure about the timing, im at work and cant check but id imagine its going to be at least 1-1.5 minutes later
Obviously its going to be dealyed. but your just going to have more stuff to defend, thats not that much use when your army doesnt even get to fight.
Going to kill his base is pretty much your only option but youve got a pretty big head start given the toss is already in your base and youve got to walk all the way (especially bad if you delayed roach speed for early hydra to defend 3gate blink)
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Afaik, the 3gate blink stalker build has blink stalkers at the opponent's base at around 7 mins. If you wait for the robo/warp prism, thats going to pretty much take you out of the timing window that you have while zerg is still making their lair tech building.
There is a lot of other things that could go wrong with this build though.
- The zerg uses all larvae at the main or nat to make lings.
- You mismicro and the FF doesn't block the entire ramp
- Zerg attacks you before you can get out the warp prism/whatever
- Queen kills the warp prism
It would be a very micro-intense build, and would require a lot of skill and luck, but in the right situation i could see it having a chance of working.
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An excellent byproduct of skipping the front of the natural is the fact that spines are taken out of the equation.
Also, if zerg tries to go for a base trade, its not hard to warp in a few sentries and delay by FF the ramp back home.
Now I'm just worried if the zerg gets enough time to get lair and hydras up, it'll deny the WP+sentry.
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I do not understand why would anyone bother with this when god blessed us with 2 base colo/VR  .
But i think i saw this in a game tester vs "some random guy" and it worked pretty well, however i am not a fan of blink stalkers, they seem quite weak to me.
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On February 28 2011 23:35 57 Corvette wrote:
Afaik, the 3gate blink stalker build has blink stalkers at the opponent's base at around 7 mins. If you wait for the robo/warp prism, thats going to pretty much take you out of the timing window that you have while zerg is still making their lair tech building.
There is a lot of other things that could go wrong with this build though.
- The zerg uses all larvae at the main or nat to make lings.
- You mismicro and the FF doesn't block the entire ramp
- Zerg attacks you before you can get out the warp prism/whatever
- Queen kills the warp prism
It would be a very micro-intense build, and would require a lot of skill and luck, but in the right situation i could see it having a chance of working.
As a zerg player im going to have my lair when blink stalker hits anyway so im not sure about that timing. I dont see what else your going to have in 1-2 mins etc thats going to stop this working other than more stuff.
At the level I play there is no way I'm going to have enough larva spare at all my bases nevermind just my main or nat to hold off an attack. If this was the case you could just start making lings at the last mnute and hold off any blink stalker attack. (obviously not correct)
Blocking the ramp with a FF isnt that hard, I dont even play toss and I dont think i'd ever mess it up.
Queen could kill the warp prism admitedly but if your careful I dont think theres much chance of it happening before the FF is down and the stalkers are blinking into your base, at which point its already too late
No zerg is going to try to bust a 1 base protoss, your going to macro and try to defend the push, blink stalkers vs roach/ling up a ramp is going to be so cost efficient you would be able to hold it no problem.
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Wouldn't it work to skip blink entirely? Drop a sentry in the main, FF the ramp, go into pylon mode and use the elevator trick to get the stalkers up. A little micro intensive, but should work, right?
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I managed to recover the old thread i made about the 3gate blink stalker build, if you need to salvage any replays/build orders from it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165355
As a zerg player im going to have my lair when blink stalker hits anyway so im not sure about that timing. I dont see what else your going to have in 1-2 mins etc thats going to stop this working other than more stuff.
At the level I play there is no way I'm going to have enough larva spare at all my bases nevermind just my main or nat to hold off an attack. If this was the case you could just start making lings at the last mnute and hold off any blink stalker attack. (obviously not correct)
Blocking the ramp with a FF isnt that hard, I dont even play toss and I dont think i'd ever mess it up.
Queen could kill the warp prism admitedly but if your careful I dont think theres much chance of it happening before the FF is down and the stalkers are blinking into your base, at which point its already too late
No zerg is going to try to bust a 1 base protoss, your going to macro and try to defend the push, blink stalkers vs roach/ling up a ramp is going to be so cost efficient you would be able to hold it no problem.
I meant the time when you are still building your hydralisk den/spire, not the time when you are just making your lair.
Ok, yeah even if you do have 7 larvae saved up at your main or nat. 14 lings aren't truley enough to deal with a decent sized stalker force. If you already had army in your main/nat however, you could pull that back, make more units and attack with that army and the newly produced units.
I've seen plenty of times where people have just missed the FF, leaving a small space for units to go through. In an intense micro situation, it is completely possible to miss. Also, you need to factor in maps with ramps that can't be FF'd by just one forcefield (Scrap Station).
Yes, being careful usually prevents everything, but then again its an intense micro situation, and you may slip up. It is just a possibility.
I've seen plenty of zerg attacks hitting around the 6 min mark, mostly designed to counter a 4warpgate rush of some sort. Then you also need to factor in Roach rushes (5rr, 7rr) or roach/ling allins (3 roach speedling allin)
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On February 28 2011 23:40 mamuto wrote:
Now I'm just worried if the zerg gets enough time to get lair and hydras up, it'll deny the WP+sentry.
You know you could even threaten their front with the stalkers so they pull everything to defend, then come in drop the sentry in main FF ramp blink away and then blink up into their base, no hydra or roach is catching blink stalkers.
And yeah warp in a sentry to defend the base race easily....this just seems really scary to me.
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On February 28 2011 23:43 gurumaia wrote:
Wouldn't it work to skip blink entirely? Drop a sentry in the main, FF the ramp, go into pylon mode and use the elevator trick to get the stalkers up. A little micro intensive, but should work, right?
Holy $%&£ this is right......
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Does anyone have any Replays of someone using this strategy? It sounds very powerful, i would love to see some.
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On February 28 2011 23:44 57 Corvette wrote:
I meant the time when you are still building your hydralisk den/spire, not the time when you are just making your lair.
Ok, yeah even if you do have 7 larvae saved up at your main or nat. 14 lings aren't truley enough to deal with a decent sized stalker force. If you already had army in your main/nat however, you could pull that back, make more units and attack with that army and the newly produced units.
I've seen plenty of times where people have just missed the FF, leaving a small space for units to go through. In an intense micro situation, it is completely possible to miss. Also, you need to factor in maps with ramps that can't be FF'd by just one forcefield (Scrap Station).
Yes, being careful usually prevents everything, but then again its an intense micro situation, and you may slip up. It is just a possibility.
I've seen plenty of zerg attacks hitting around the 6 min mark, mostly designed to counter a 4warpgate rush of some sort. Then you also need to factor in Roach rushes (5rr, 7rr) or roach/ling allins (3 roach speedling allin)
Im not toally sure but a 5RR/7RR is going to hit before youve commited to the blink/warp prism anyway so holding that off is just going to be the same trivial defence as usual.
Yeah your not going to do it on scrap or other maps like that as it prtty much depends entirely on on getting the ramp blocked.
You say pull your army back, but if your (lucky to) have half your army in main and half in nat I dont think the reinforcements of 1 base+ half an army can possibly hope to defend againt a 3gate stalker push especially with reinforcement coming from the warp-prism.
Yeah you might lose the warp prism to a queen but that isnt exactly a reason to not do th build or a concrete way to defend it.
Also it isnt actually that intense I meant theres no battle going on yet, and the more I think about it attacking the front first to pull the army while you bring in the warp prism in the main ie drop the sentry in the corner run it up and FF, that way they dont even see the warp prism first to know its coming.
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On February 28 2011 23:59 PassiveAce wrote:
Does anyone have any Replays of someone using this strategy? It sounds very powerful, i would love to see some.
No replays yet since I play zerg but if someone wants to try it with me and we can post some im BoonSolo.297 (3k diamond) on the EU server. Still in work for now though.
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On February 28 2011 23:47 BoonSolo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 23:43 gurumaia wrote:
Wouldn't it work to skip blink entirely? Drop a sentry in the main, FF the ramp, go into pylon mode and use the elevator trick to get the stalkers up. A little micro intensive, but should work, right? Holy $%&£ this is right......
well in that case you don't even have to do purely stalkers.. mix in zealots. And have 4 sentries to constantly FF the ramp. Without blink this can hit a lot earlier :S
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EPT
