EPTPvT - When terran goes no gas - Page 2
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kodas
United States418 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
this is why it is so such gamble to expand before seeing if he goes for an expo or all in. Not going expo will make you behind, going for expo opens up an opportunity for a SCV timing push. Best bet would be playing economy orientated, skip the zealot and go for some fast stalkers to pressure up the ramp and see what he is up to. without Gas, you don't have to fear Marauder with Shells at the first poke. banshees should be delayed too. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
it shouldn't affect ur play much, just be aware of a possible early marine/scv build which is why u get less stalkers. EDIT: as said on the first page 3 gate wg expo is also completely viable I just prefer to get colossus out a bit earlier vs this, makes me feel more comfortable. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
As mentioned earlier, vs no-gas marine/expand play the build shown in the recent day9-daily is really powerful. For everyone who hasn't seen it, what you do is you go zealot/stalker cut probes at 24 also you don't produce a pylon. Instead you throw down a nexus, add a 2nd stalker (26/26 now), add a pylon and continue normally. Basicly that's a more risky kcdc-style that I'd never do when there's the threat of early marauder pressure. But against marine-only openings it's just awsome how much damage you can do with zealot/stalker followed with double stalker harass (zealot will die). You get full scouting-intel and can follow up in every possible direction. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On February 25 2011 23:33 sleepingdog wrote: I'd say each build that can put pressure on early is viable - although things get annoying on maps like shakuras, where one bunker is enough to stop this. As mentioned earlier, vs no-gas marine/expand play the build shown in the recent day9-daily is really powerful. For everyone who hasn't seen it, what you do is you go zealot/stalker cut probes at 24 also you don't produce a pylon. Instead you throw down a nexus, add a 2nd stalker (26/26 now), add a pylon and continue normally. Basicly that's a more risky kcdc-style that I'd never do when there's the threat of early marauder pressure. But against marine-only openings it's just awsome how much damage you can do with zealot/stalker followed with double stalker harass (zealot will die). You get full scouting-intel and can follow up in every possible direction. except without a sentry you're vulnerable to an scv/marine attack (5-8 scvs perhaps) and it's especially worse if you overdedicate out of 1 gateway. not saying it doesn't work but there is guesswork involved here if u do taht. | ||
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Farmerz
39 Posts
Usually when a terran goes no gas he goes for a fast expansion, so I throw my expansion down fairly early, too (after 2nd gate) and keep on scouting. It's actually not hard to get the needed information early. If I send a probe up his ramp and see only marines, he will probably fast expand. If I see marauders it's likely that he does off raxes (or some kind of weird fast expand). So the most difficult thing is when he fast expanded and you couldn't 4 gate him. I almost always win with a 2 Base colossus push. I can defend myself easily with sentries and then I go for double robo and build 1-2 immortals 2-3 colossus and push him. Usually terrans go for 4 rax after they got their expansion up and then tech to vikings and they have like 4 vikings when I attack him. Utilizing stalkers to snipe off the vikings it's fairly easy to push him. He will have freaking lot bio units but only some air units. If the push doesn't work that well or when you scout you cannot really attack because he has surprisingly many vikings, you can go for a total lategame. 3.9k masterleague | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On February 25 2011 23:46 Antimage wrote: except without a sentry you're vulnerable to an scv/marine attack (5-8 scvs perhaps) and it's especially worse if you overdedicate out of 1 gateway. not saying it doesn't work but there is guesswork involved here if u do taht. Yes agreed, I think the viability of the aforementioned build depends on map and rush-distance. Wouldn't recommend it for meta close, steppes etc either...but on these maps most terrans don't dare to play no gas FE. I ran into the attempted scv/marine attack you mentioned, and although I lost my zealot quickly having the stalkers already "out there" helps a lot! You can easily do some kiting, picking off marines/scvs while they march towards your base. Also if you go zealot/stalker/stalker you'll have just the right amount of gas to follow up with a sentry. But my opponents really weren't that good, so I'm not trying to claim it's 100% safe against scv/marine. On February 25 2011 23:51 Farmerz wrote: When I see no gas I play 3 gate into expansion into colossi. Usually when a terran goes no gas he goes for a fast expansion, so I throw my expansion down fairly early, too (after 2nd gate) and keep on scouting. It's actually not hard to get the needed information early. If I send a probe up his ramp and see only marines, he will probably fast expand. If I see marauders it's likely that he does off raxes (or some kind of weird fast expand). No offense, but this just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. First of all you say you play 3 gate expo, then you say you add your nexus after 2nd gate. Now 2 gate pressure expo is a different opening, no? Second, when you send a probe up his ramp and you see a marauder...where the hell did this dude come from when the terran didn't have a geyser shortly before his marine popped (meaning: when you have to leave with your probe)? Or of which point in time are you talking about? | ||
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
In my experience as a fe'ing terran the safest & best option is to pressure/scout with your first gate units to make sure he's expanding and then quickly setting up your own expo. There are tons of options for when to expand/what transition you want to make. Just make sure it fits your skilllevel & playstyle. 2 good reads/views on the subject: http://day9tv.blip.tv/ daily #264 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193836 (fake robo 3 gate push) | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
Yes agreed, I think the viability of the aforementioned build depends on map and rush-distance. Wouldn't recommend it for meta close, steppes etc either...but on these maps most terrans don't dare to play no gas FE. I ran into the attempted scv/marine attack you mentioned, and although I lost my zealot quickly having the stalkers already "out there" helps a lot! You can easily do some kiting, picking off marines/scvs while they march towards your base. Also if you go zealot/stalker/stalker you'll have just the right amount of gas to follow up with a sentry. If you go Zealot/Stalker/Stalker, it is almost an instant loss to SCV/Marine all-in, the rush hits by the time your Warpgates is only half way done (less if you didn't chrono boost it), if you didn't get enough sentries then you will not have enough force fields to stall until it is done, I think that rush will be at your door before your sentry is even done if you open Zealot/Stalker/Stalker (unless your CB'd all three of them) | ||
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Devlawl
Australia122 Posts
With good force field control you can stop the all in and if he fast expands then you can go in and bust him easily with the 6gate as he'll be heavy on the marines and slow on teching. I play terran and I sometimes no gas fe, i find it easy to hold a four gate if they are low on sentry count and if the protoss techs up to the typical col/gateway off 1 or 2base I just out macro them typically. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
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BlinkGosu
United States46 Posts
4gating- -strong -more difficult to pull off vs heavy bunkers -quite ineffective on shakuras where pushing up the ramp to the natural makes it incredibly hard to pull off and you must basically commit entirely to the push -relies a lot on forcefield micro and decision making when you 4gate a terran that just fe'd they will most likely have 2-4 bunkers posted up filled with only marines, and maybe a few marauders depending on your timing. You will deffinately need to be heavy on zealout/sentry composition so you can forcefield the bunkers to prevent repair. This is the key, and if you cannot kill the bunkers and the units inside in a timely fashion or without to many losses then you are going to get outmacro'd and just lose to an MM push as soon as stim finishes. Blink Stalkers 3gate or 4gate blinkstalkers (your choice) are very good alternative to a straight 4gate. The 3gate blinkstalkers can hit at the same time a hard 4gate does, and the 4gate blinkstalker can hit at the same time an eco-4gate does. The biggest difference is (obviously) manuverability. This allows you to engage his natural or his army without having to commit, because you can blink your stalkers back before they are killed. In this way, with strong micro, you can build up a large group of stalkers while keeping his unit count low. Another benefit is the ability to completely bypass his natural, blinking past any bunkers he may have down and heading straight into the main. The best technique for this is to blink 1 or 2 stalkers forward past the bunkers and then have them run up, which gives vision for the rest of your stalkers to blink up the side of his main (this is map dependent and not necessary if he didn't wall in). With this technique you will be able to warp reinforcement zealouts into his base with a well placed proxy pylon. Often you can catch the opponent offgaurd and warp sentries to forcefield the ramp, but this is again just a stylistic choice and one way isn't better than the other necessarily. When you do this you will want to be carefull of him pulling all scv's, as they can get a quick surround on your stalkers while blink is on cooldown, so just stutter-step micro around till you have blink and can fully engage any marines/scvs. When you have blinked into his base you will want to remember that your next blink will determine wether you are all-in or not, as if you start blink-micro for survival then you are all- in, and you won't be able to blink out of the base. -better than 4gate vs 3+bunkers -strong vs marines -high mobility -not as all-in -better follow ups (you have a tech structure) 3gate Robo This build is another all-in that you can use in your arsenal vs a 2gate fe. It is definitely the least all-in, as you are much safer from late cloaked banshees and have the most optimal tech structure for a follow up. I think it is not only the safest but i also believe that it is possibly the strongest and hardest to stop. It utilizes the immortal, which is INCREDIBLY cost effective early game. Immortals deal 50 dmg per shot to bunkers, has incredible health, and is equivalent to 2 flimsy stalkers that would be produced from a 4gate. Not only is it cost efficient but it is efficient from a time/production point of view. Instead of producing a 4th gateway unit you get a much beefier immortal while continuing to produce off of your other 3 gateways. When pushing with this build you want to have a zealout/sentry heavy gateway army, which will allow full production off of all 4 structures, and is really the most cost efficient. Stalkers should not really be warped in unless you can get a good angle on his natural or if you can shoot at a wall-in with your observer. you have your initial 2 or 3 stalkers and these should be kept alive through good forcefield and army micro. It is important to use forcefields on the bunkers to prevent repair but also you should save some forcefield energy for when the bunkers are dead to trap the kiting marines, as your army is not nearly as manuverable as a 4gate or blinkstalker army. Overall this build probably is the strongest, safest, and most easily executable all-in that protoss have. -very strong vs heavy bunkers -cost effective units -safe vs cloak -good transitions -easy to pull back and expand safely 6gate This build is the most all-in you can get, making 6 production structures to allow the maximum unit count for maximum dps at the start and throughout your push. It is the strongest against any marine heavy defense, and weakest against bunker heavy defense. It is most dependant on your micro of forcefields and your timings. If your initial push does not work, then you have no transitions and you will lose, but it is a very strong initial strike and can constantly reinforce with much larger groups of units than any of the other builds. This build is probably the best build you can use on a map like blistering sands, as you have full access to his base through the back door, but if your opponent 2 rax fe's on blistering then he's probably crazy anyway. -best against few bunkers and large chokes -weak against bunkers -unit cost efficient -not manuverable -forcefield micro heavy I have not provided any build orders, as you can get those yourself through personal choice/experience or just using the search option. Before any of you yell at me about transitioning out of an all-in, i just want to say yeah i know it's not optimal. If you clearly are not going to break your opponent (you went for the wrong build or he did something unexpected) then you should back up, throw down a nexus, and work to counter his build while defending safely. Sentries and immortals are great defensive units, along with a cannon or 2 at the front while using the forge for some fast upgrades. A good transition for 3gate robo is obviously to make a collo den and start teching up, or to drop another robo bay and start pumping double immortal with zealout sentry and get fast upgrades. Blinkstalkers should probably drop a robo bay for observers, and then tech to dark templar to expand/contain. Overall these builds are all-in and you should really rely on your ability to micro to win you the game. 3.3k masters toss | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
1) 2 rax no gas means very early game he will have more marines than you can handle, so as usual make sure you go sentry to prevent the terran from getting too aggressive and moving up the ramp. 2) If you have a sentry or 2 I don't believe you have to worry about a marine/scv all-in, it just wont work. 3) Generally the 2 rax no gas is a cover for a fast expo. Cutting gas (75 min) + keeping 3 workers on minerals (+lots more) lead to a much faster expansion timing for a terran. Couple this with the fact that very early on the terran can keep you penned in your base and you see it puts the terran ahead if he can get away with the fast expo, don't let him. 4) Getting gas late will mean terran is going to be tech starved once he moves out of the early game. 5) Best response I believe is a strong opening. You have to punish the FE, this happens to work well too since terran is tech starved. That said I don't think 4 gate works terribly well, 3 gate robo I think is the best. When you start to push the terran be careful (he'll have bunkers) and make sure to drop your expo as you push out. | ||
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Mystgun
Hong Kong311 Posts
- stalker/stalker from first gate to harass marines and to scout. you will need to actively manage these stalkers to see whats going on and to pick off marines. stalkers should never die to unstimmed marines at this point of the game. - add robo and 3rd gate once I have the resources - chrono'd obs to see inside base here's where things branch out a bit. 1. if he's going marine-scv all-in, you would've had quite a bit of notice with your stalkers in the front and you should be warping in stalker/sentry into your main and getting ready to defend. 2. if he's going FE, I personally like to get immortal/zealot/sentry. There's a very sweet timing when he's lifting off his cc where his bunkers are being built and he will be caught out of position at his choke (he will not be able to come down the ramp with marines due to your stalkers). if your army is there at that time he's pretty much lost the game 3. if you find out his gas was just delayed and he's teching, then this is no different from any other game so just play as normal. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
With decent micro you could attempt a break. With some long game focus, you could skew your comp towards sentries, and contain him while you get up an expand with the extra minerals you get for not making many stalkers/zealots. The argument for delayed 3 rax is almost idiotic. Why? Because if the vespene of the Terran is taken slowly then the army comp of the Terran is paper against a normal 4 gate comp. If the gas is taken aggressively, the 3 rax resumes as it usually would then it's simply got a much slower critical mass of marauders, and can be fought at the pressuring Protoss player's leisure. (No early gas means no early marauder pressure) | ||
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nWong
Canada145 Posts
I recommend you just 1 gate FE in response to this and macro it out. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On February 25 2011 10:27 ecstazy wrote: just 4 gate. Prolly his response to everything. | ||
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