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So guys, assuming that I send my probe on 9 to scout the terran fellow and the probe gets inside T base, what if i see that the terran has no gas?
by general standards, terran go for gas ~ 13 supply, but by the time goes in and he is getting orbital command if i spot that he has no gas what is the best way to respond to this?
because a Terran that goes for no gas is either going for some kind of fake 3 rax where he throws down 2 rax or proxies them somewhere so you do not scout it, and get sdouble refinery for his addons or he goes for either a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax marine scv all in.
which build order in response from Protoss would be the best thing to do in this situation?
I've bee nexperimenting with this and I am not quite sure how to tackle this scenario.
and oh yes, terran could also be going for late banshees, so a obs is a must.
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Russian Federation59 Posts
When I see terran go for no gas - makes me think it's either a fast expand or a 4/5 rax semi-all in pressure. So i just 4 gate. If he attacks, i'll have tonnes of units to defend and then finish him off. If he expands - I'll kill him/take out his expo/fail miserably if my opponent is considerably better than me (haven't seen that happen yet, but i think it's somehow possible to expand against a 4 gate in TvP).
4 gate (even if it's fairly economical) should strike much eariler than a late banshee (early banshee is like 7 mins, and 4 gate that isn't super early attacks at roughly the same time) - he won't even have a chance to get a banshee out in time for a 4 gate if he didn't take early gas.
2.5k daimond
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On February 25 2011 10:27 ecstazy wrote:
When I see terran go for no gas - makes me think it's either a fast expand or a 4/5 rax semi-all in pressure. So i just 4 gate. If he attacks, i'll have tonnes of units to defend and then finish him off. If he expands - I'll kill him/take out his expo/fail miserably if my opponent is considerably better than me (haven't seen that happen yet, but i think it's somehow possible to expand against a 4 gate in TvP).
4 gate (even if it's fairly economical) should strike much eariler than a late banshee (early banshee is like 7 mins, and 4 gate that isn't super early attacks at roughly the same time) - he won't even have a chance to get a banshee out in time for a 4 gate if he didn't take early gas.
2.5k daimond
No... terran builds expansion in the main if they are going 1 rax fe, even if you go 4 gate you will not be able to attack since they will have bunkers with marines and scvs repairing at the top, they can just build up units and then push out with their command center with more scvs than you have probes... so that is no good.
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On February 25 2011 10:31 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:27 ecstazy wrote:
When I see terran go for no gas - makes me think it's either a fast expand or a 4/5 rax semi-all in pressure. So i just 4 gate. If he attacks, i'll have tonnes of units to defend and then finish him off. If he expands - I'll kill him/take out his expo/fail miserably if my opponent is considerably better than me (haven't seen that happen yet, but i think it's somehow possible to expand against a 4 gate in TvP).
4 gate (even if it's fairly economical) should strike much eariler than a late banshee (early banshee is like 7 mins, and 4 gate that isn't super early attacks at roughly the same time) - he won't even have a chance to get a banshee out in time for a 4 gate if he didn't take early gas.
2.5k daimond No... terran builds expansion in the main if they are going 1 rax fe, even if you go 4 gate you will not be able to attack since they will have bunkers with marines and scvs repairing at the top, they can just build up units and then push out with their command center with more scvs than you have probes... so that is no good.
You can forcefield the bunker and prevent repairs while the zealots can still hit and the stalkers can still shoot.
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Russian Federation59 Posts
On February 25 2011 10:31 pandaBee wrote:
No... terran builds expansion in the main if they are going 1 rax fe, even if you go 4 gate you will not be able to attack since they will have bunkers with marines and scvs repairing at the top, they can just build up units and then push out with their command center with more scvs than you have probes... so that is no good.
Options:
1. Sentry forcefields behind his bunkers to keep scvs away from repairing it and then kill it. No bunker = no problem. If he expanded and put down a bunker that was never salvaged, that's 500 minerals less in army - with good micro, it should be simple to kill for a 4 gate.
2. Camp outside his base with 6 sentries and a few stalkers and constantly forcefield his ramp if he tries to move down while expanding the map and getting robo and other tech etc.
So 4 gate is good. At least it worked for me when I faced no gas terrans.
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Well most likely a Fast expansion, thats one of the only reason why i would think that a terran would have no gas in the beginning. Or it could be a pressure build such as 4 or 5 rax. And if you dont see either scout the rest of the map, their is most likely a proxy rax. A proper response would be to get your own expansion out of a 2 gate or something. And when the terran is at a macro stage take another base, and completely out macro your opponent, since it seems that most of the terran player are very passive players you wont have to worry about a lot of pressure.
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On February 25 2011 10:27 ecstazy wrote:
When I see terran go for no gas - makes me think it's either a fast expand or a 4/5 rax semi-all in pressure. So i just 4 gate. If he attacks, i'll have tonnes of units to defend and then finish him off. If he expands - I'll kill him/take out his expo/fail miserably if my opponent is considerably better than me (haven't seen that happen yet, but i think it's somehow possible to expand against a 4 gate in TvP).
4 gate (even if it's fairly economical) should strike much eariler than a late banshee (early banshee is like 7 mins, and 4 gate that isn't super early attacks at roughly the same time) - he won't even have a chance to get a banshee out in time for a 4 gate if he didn't take early gas.
2.5k daimond
Pretty good assessment of what is most likely to happen, yes Terran can chill on the high ground in their main but you can respond with ff their ramp and expoing or trying to break them (with good micro it is possible).
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I would say 4 gate is a bad decision (depending on the map), it will fail most of the time in higher level. Probably the best response is something like warp prism+3-4gate/DT or the best option would be to expand yourself and take it to the late game where you will have an advantage due to your tech. Voidrays works depending on the map, however i only see terran doing this on maps like shakuras and LT so you cant pass the bunkers/otherwise 4gate will kill terran 
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4 gate is the wrong decision, if they are probably going fast expansion off of 2 rax (1 rax no gas expansion is very hard to do, and I doubt people still do it) and 3 bunkers at nat, which you will not be able to break. Blink stalkers or warp prism harass is the way to go.
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4 gate pushes after 6 minutes cannot kill a good 2racks expand into 4/5 racks MnM.. except maybe proxies, but that's not being discussed
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On February 25 2011 09:59 pandaBee wrote:
So guys, assuming that I send my probe on 9 to scout the terran fellow and the probe gets inside T base, what if i see that the terran has no gas?
by general standards, terran go for gas ~ 13 supply, but by the time goes in and he is getting orbital command if i spot that he has no gas what is the best way to respond to this?
because a Terran that goes for no gas is either going for some kind of fake 3 rax where he throws down 2 rax or proxies them somewhere so you do not scout it, and get sdouble refinery for his addons or he goes for either a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax marine scv all in.
which build order in response from Protoss would be the best thing to do in this situation?
I've bee nexperimenting with this and I am not quite sure how to tackle this scenario.
and oh yes, terran could also be going for late banshees, so a obs is a must.
Expand or marine all-in is propobly all that can come from a no gas opening, unless we are talking bronse league.
A 4WG responce was suggested, and I have to agree on it for anything up to high diamond. Generaly, at that level a terran will know to hit with marines before warpgates are up and he will know how to defend his FE against a 4WG. Sure it can still win games even in masters league, but it will loose more and more the better the players are.
My recomendation against a no-gas terran is to:
- Scout his base as bast you can for as long as you can to spot extra rax, send a second probe to scout proxy locations. Make sure its not a marine all-in. Use that second probe to keep an eye on your opponent moving out \ landing his orbital. Sack it up the ramp if he doesn't do either for a long time to see how many and what units he has.
Then follow up with of the following:
A) Do a FE build of your choice, keeping in mind you can delay your robo and spend more chronoboost on probes once you are sure it is not a marine all-in.
B) Do a Harass -> expand build of your choice. Again, you can delay your detection and cut back on units ocne you are sure it is not a marine all-in.
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I'd just go 3 gate expo and attack with stalker/sentry if its an expo. no zealots. you will destroy a marine/bunker defense that's light on marauders.
Of the top of my head, see MC v Jinro on XNC a couple of GSLs ago.
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if he has no gas by 16-18 food i just 4gate. 1 gas/ cut probes at 20-22.
first wave of 4gate is 4 stalkers, plus your initial zealot + 2 stalkers.
place 2nd proxy pylon at a spot you can warp to high ground if he hasn't moved down to natural yet. should beat any marine cheese or no-gas econ build unless he has vastly superior micro.
3k diamond
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On February 25 2011 11:30 Tsabo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:59 pandaBee wrote:
So guys, assuming that I send my probe on 9 to scout the terran fellow and the probe gets inside T base, what if i see that the terran has no gas?
by general standards, terran go for gas ~ 13 supply, but by the time goes in and he is getting orbital command if i spot that he has no gas what is the best way to respond to this?
because a Terran that goes for no gas is either going for some kind of fake 3 rax where he throws down 2 rax or proxies them somewhere so you do not scout it, and get sdouble refinery for his addons or he goes for either a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax marine scv all in.
which build order in response from Protoss would be the best thing to do in this situation?
I've bee nexperimenting with this and I am not quite sure how to tackle this scenario.
and oh yes, terran could also be going for late banshees, so a obs is a must. Expand or marine all-in is propobly all that can come from a no gas opening, unless we are talking bronse league. A 4WG responce was suggested, and I have to agree on it for anything up to high diamond. Generaly, at that level a terran will know to hit with marines before warpgates are up and he will know how to defend his FE against a 4WG. Sure it can still win games even in masters league, but it will loose more and more the better the players are. My recomendation against a no-gas terran is to: - Scout his base as bast you can for as long as you can to spot extra rax, send a second probe to scout proxy locations. Make sure its not a marine all-in. Use that second probe to keep an eye on your opponent moving out \ landing his orbital. Sack it up the ramp if he doesn't do either for a long time to see how many and what units he has. Then follow up with of the following: A) Do a FE build of your choice, keeping in mind you can delay your robo and spend more chronoboost on probes once you are sure it is not a marine all-in. B) Do a Harass -> expand build of your choice. Again, you can delay your detection and cut back on units ocne you are sure it is not a marine all-in.
for A) could you be more specific as to what kind of FE build? how many gates, what tech, units, etc.
because the problem with FE builds for me (either 1 gate or 3 gate expand) is that the terran can always just do a delayed 3 rax push... which can be very powerful because you can't get a robo fast enough to scout it before he starts pushing out if you expanded... 4 gate does not work too well either and i would rather not consider this as a option.
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On February 25 2011 11:47 dar0za wrote:
if he has no gas by 16-18 food i just 4gate. 1 gas/ cut probes at 20-22.
first wave of 4gate is 4 stalkers, plus your initial zealot + 2 stalkers.
place 2nd proxy pylon at a spot you can warp to high ground if he hasn't moved down to natural yet. should beat any marine cheese or no-gas econ build unless he has vastly superior micro.
3k diamond
the problem is if he actually did a a fake/delayed 3 rax ( as in not getting any gas to make me think i am going to expand ) this push will not work and i will lose my forces if i move up that ramp because of conc shell
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On February 25 2011 12:26 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 11:30 Tsabo wrote:On February 25 2011 09:59 pandaBee wrote:
So guys, assuming that I send my probe on 9 to scout the terran fellow and the probe gets inside T base, what if i see that the terran has no gas?
by general standards, terran go for gas ~ 13 supply, but by the time goes in and he is getting orbital command if i spot that he has no gas what is the best way to respond to this?
because a Terran that goes for no gas is either going for some kind of fake 3 rax where he throws down 2 rax or proxies them somewhere so you do not scout it, and get sdouble refinery for his addons or he goes for either a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax marine scv all in.
which build order in response from Protoss would be the best thing to do in this situation?
I've bee nexperimenting with this and I am not quite sure how to tackle this scenario.
and oh yes, terran could also be going for late banshees, so a obs is a must. Expand or marine all-in is propobly all that can come from a no gas opening, unless we are talking bronse league. A 4WG responce was suggested, and I have to agree on it for anything up to high diamond. Generaly, at that level a terran will know to hit with marines before warpgates are up and he will know how to defend his FE against a 4WG. Sure it can still win games even in masters league, but it will loose more and more the better the players are. My recomendation against a no-gas terran is to: - Scout his base as bast you can for as long as you can to spot extra rax, send a second probe to scout proxy locations. Make sure its not a marine all-in. Use that second probe to keep an eye on your opponent moving out \ landing his orbital. Sack it up the ramp if he doesn't do either for a long time to see how many and what units he has. Then follow up with of the following: A) Do a FE build of your choice, keeping in mind you can delay your robo and spend more chronoboost on probes once you are sure it is not a marine all-in. B) Do a Harass -> expand build of your choice. Again, you can delay your detection and cut back on units ocne you are sure it is not a marine all-in. for A) could you be more specific as to what kind of FE build? how many gates, what tech, units, etc. because the problem with FE builds for me (either 1 gate or 3 gate expand) is that the terran can always just do a delayed 3 rax push... which can be very powerful because you can't get a robo fast enough to scout it before he starts pushing out if you expanded... 4 gate does not work too well either and i would rather not consider this as a option.
It's much simpler and harder then what you think.
It's Hard, because:
You are asking for a complete revision of a FE build, that takes in to account that:
- You are playing against a 1Rax -> no gas -> something player. (presumably something = FE, but you can't know for sure)
- You only start going for the FE build after you scout no gas.
Its something that whold take alot of time and effort, and is very comlicated. Anyone who will say something like "go gate->core->expo-->add 2 gate->second gas->robo->*insert more random buildings*" will just be giving out something that works for him with his micro/macro/scouting skills against oppontns of his level, but you might be better off with a diffrent build yourself.
It's Simple because:
You don't acutaly need to have a specific build for this sort of situation. Pick any FE build you like to do and go strait into it once you see no gas and feel that it isn't an all-in. It can be anything from 17 nexus to a 3 gateway expand.
What you have to realise that from this point its a normal game of you doing your favorite FE build against an opponent who didn't get gas. And it's best to discuss how to play it in another thread.
+ Show Spoiler +In general you hold a dealyed 3 rax with sentry/stalker/immortal and good FFs
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Kind of on topic as I think scouting is the key here. A cool trick I picked up from Hongun vs. oGsTop the other day in GSL is to send your first stalker and a probe together to poke... Dont attack with the probe, the idea is to draw the couple of bio units' fire onto the stalker while the probe has no attack priority... just run it into the base and see what you can. Using this method Hongun was able to scout the command center being constructed in oGsTop's base. As soon as he saw the CC as the probe died, he started his nexus knowing he would be safe. The simple scouting technique pretty much dictated how he was going to play the rest of the game out.
Obviously it wont work against a wall off, though i still recommend poking up with a zealot or stalker against a wall off to see what theyve got up there.
Oh, P.S. Top even had 2 marines at the Bottom of his ramp and 1 marauder at the top, but the probe was still able to get up the ramp past them because the initial fire was on the stalker.
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4gate isn't right thing to do. Terran could just go little bit later gas than usual or might go 1rax expand with cutted scv production and mass marines and mass bunkers. 4gate is just blind counter =/. I think 1gate expansion is proper way to go in most cases and then to add many gates since he can't support cloak banshee right away so you don't need robo so quick
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well, you need to think of the things a terran can't have without gas... Stim, Sheilds, Reactors, Tech labs, ups. So, to me... zealots will be effective, any opening you choose will be safe, and it will be hard with him to fuck with an expo when there is no stim.
So basically, your safe.
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You could play like Princesomething in the newest day9 daily. Cut drones, don´t get the third pylon and get a nexus asap. Then poke with a zealot and two stalkers while building additional gateways and resuming probe production. You should be able to tell what he does from the poke and if he goes for a marine allin just cancel your expo and chrono boost some sentries out.
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4gate, seriously it will win you the game. It takes 4 bunkers without repair to hold a well executed 4gate. Just ff the bunkers so they cant be repaired. Terran early game is so weak without rauders honestly
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Personally I like to rush colossus. If they go for some really odd early aggression with marines you can just force field your ramp. If they go for a really quick expansion you should be able to hit with your colossi and break them (even if they spam bunkers you can just hit the bunkers from out of range with colossi assuming u get the range upgrade).
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well i disagree, a decent Marine All-In hits can hit pretty hard, and before Warpgates kick in.
this is why it is so such gamble to expand before seeing if he goes for an expo or all in.
Not going expo will make you behind, going for expo opens up an opportunity for a SCV timing push.
Best bet would be playing economy orientated, skip the zealot and go for some fast stalkers to pressure up the ramp and see what he is up to.
without Gas, you don't have to fear Marauder with Shells at the first poke.
banshees should be delayed too.
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go 2 gate expo (sentry/zealot + few stalkers cut early marines ez), add your robo and get colossus out on 2 base after ur first ob.
it shouldn't affect ur play much, just be aware of a possible early marine/scv build which is why u get less stalkers.
EDIT: as said on the first page 3 gate wg expo is also completely viable I just prefer to get colossus out a bit earlier vs this, makes me feel more comfortable.
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I'd say each build that can put pressure on early is viable - although things get annoying on maps like shakuras, where one bunker is enough to stop this.
As mentioned earlier, vs no-gas marine/expand play the build shown in the recent day9-daily is really powerful. For everyone who hasn't seen it, what you do is you go zealot/stalker cut probes at 24 also you don't produce a pylon. Instead you throw down a nexus, add a 2nd stalker (26/26 now), add a pylon and continue normally. Basicly that's a more risky kcdc-style that I'd never do when there's the threat of early marauder pressure. But against marine-only openings it's just awsome how much damage you can do with zealot/stalker followed with double stalker harass (zealot will die).
You get full scouting-intel and can follow up in every possible direction.
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On February 25 2011 23:33 sleepingdog wrote:
I'd say each build that can put pressure on early is viable - although things get annoying on maps like shakuras, where one bunker is enough to stop this.
As mentioned earlier, vs no-gas marine/expand play the build shown in the recent day9-daily is really powerful. For everyone who hasn't seen it, what you do is you go zealot/stalker cut probes at 24 also you don't produce a pylon. Instead you throw down a nexus, add a 2nd stalker (26/26 now), add a pylon and continue normally. Basicly that's a more risky kcdc-style that I'd never do when there's the threat of early marauder pressure. But against marine-only openings it's just awsome how much damage you can do with zealot/stalker followed with double stalker harass (zealot will die).
You get full scouting-intel and can follow up in every possible direction.
except without a sentry you're vulnerable to an scv/marine attack (5-8 scvs perhaps) and it's especially worse if you overdedicate out of 1 gateway.
not saying it doesn't work but there is guesswork involved here if u do taht.
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When I see no gas I play 3 gate into expansion into colossi.
Usually when a terran goes no gas he goes for a fast expansion, so I throw my expansion down fairly early, too (after 2nd gate) and keep on scouting. It's actually not hard to get the needed information early. If I send a probe up his ramp and see only marines, he will probably fast expand. If I see marauders it's likely that he does off raxes (or some kind of weird fast expand).
So the most difficult thing is when he fast expanded and you couldn't 4 gate him. I almost always win with a 2 Base colossus push. I can defend myself easily with sentries and then I go for double robo and build 1-2 immortals 2-3 colossus and push him. Usually terrans go for 4 rax after they got their expansion up and then tech to vikings and they have like 4 vikings when I attack him. Utilizing stalkers to snipe off the vikings it's fairly easy to push him. He will have freaking lot bio units but only some air units.
If the push doesn't work that well or when you scout you cannot really attack because he has surprisingly many vikings, you can go for a total lategame.
3.9k masterleague
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On February 25 2011 23:46 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 23:33 sleepingdog wrote:
I'd say each build that can put pressure on early is viable - although things get annoying on maps like shakuras, where one bunker is enough to stop this.
As mentioned earlier, vs no-gas marine/expand play the build shown in the recent day9-daily is really powerful. For everyone who hasn't seen it, what you do is you go zealot/stalker cut probes at 24 also you don't produce a pylon. Instead you throw down a nexus, add a 2nd stalker (26/26 now), add a pylon and continue normally. Basicly that's a more risky kcdc-style that I'd never do when there's the threat of early marauder pressure. But against marine-only openings it's just awsome how much damage you can do with zealot/stalker followed with double stalker harass (zealot will die).
You get full scouting-intel and can follow up in every possible direction. except without a sentry you're vulnerable to an scv/marine attack (5-8 scvs perhaps) and it's especially worse if you overdedicate out of 1 gateway. not saying it doesn't work but there is guesswork involved here if u do taht.
Yes agreed, I think the viability of the aforementioned build depends on map and rush-distance. Wouldn't recommend it for meta close, steppes etc either...but on these maps most terrans don't dare to play no gas FE.
I ran into the attempted scv/marine attack you mentioned, and although I lost my zealot quickly having the stalkers already "out there" helps a lot! You can easily do some kiting, picking off marines/scvs while they march towards your base. Also if you go zealot/stalker/stalker you'll have just the right amount of gas to follow up with a sentry.
But my opponents really weren't that good, so I'm not trying to claim it's 100% safe against scv/marine.
On February 25 2011 23:51 Farmerz wrote:
When I see no gas I play 3 gate into expansion into colossi.
Usually when a terran goes no gas he goes for a fast expansion, so I throw my expansion down fairly early, too (after 2nd gate) and keep on scouting. It's actually not hard to get the needed information early. If I send a probe up his ramp and see only marines, he will probably fast expand. If I see marauders it's likely that he does off raxes (or some kind of weird fast expand).
No offense, but this just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
First of all you say you play 3 gate expo, then you say you add your nexus after 2nd gate. Now 2 gate pressure expo is a different opening, no?
Second, when you send a probe up his ramp and you see a marauder...where the hell did this dude come from when the terran didn't have a geyser shortly before his marine popped (meaning: when you have to leave with your probe)? Or of which point in time are you talking about?
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Unless there is a backdoor option I would not recommend going 4 gate vs a gasless opening. You're counting on the terran messing up his bunker timing/placement in order to break the front, especially on maps with a choked natural.
In my experience as a fe'ing terran the safest & best option is to pressure/scout with your first gate units to make sure he's expanding and then quickly setting up your own expo. There are tons of options for when to expand/what transition you want to make. Just make sure it fits your skilllevel & playstyle.
2 good reads/views on the subject:
http://day9tv.blip.tv/ daily #264
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193836 (fake robo 3 gate push)
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Yes agreed, I think the viability of the aforementioned build depends on map and rush-distance. Wouldn't recommend it for meta close, steppes etc either...but on these maps most terrans don't dare to play no gas FE.
I ran into the attempted scv/marine attack you mentioned, and although I lost my zealot quickly having the stalkers already "out there" helps a lot! You can easily do some kiting, picking off marines/scvs while they march towards your base. Also if you go zealot/stalker/stalker you'll have just the right amount of gas to follow up with a sentry.
If you go Zealot/Stalker/Stalker, it is almost an instant loss to SCV/Marine all-in, the rush hits by the time your Warpgates is only half way done (less if you didn't chrono boost it), if you didn't get enough sentries then you will not have enough force fields to stall until it is done, I think that rush will be at your door before your sentry is even done if you open Zealot/Stalker/Stalker (unless your CB'd all three of them)
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Wouldn't a oGsMC style 3gate expo into 6gate timing attack work well?
With good force field control you can stop the all in and if he fast expands then you can go in and bust him easily with the 6gate as he'll be heavy on the marines and slow on teching.
I play terran and I sometimes no gas fe, i find it easy to hold a four gate if they are low on sentry count and if the protoss techs up to the typical col/gateway off 1 or 2base I just out macro them typically.
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The hard part about a gasless opening is that there is almost no way to tell the difference between an FE and an SCV/Marine push until that first Stalker is out. Personally, Zealot/Stalker/Sentry is the safest way to open, and it leaves enough time to where you'll know whether or not you need to drop down 3 more gates or expand.
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Depending on your micro and style/preference you should be able to go for any different kind of protoss "all-in" that you want. I am a 3.3k masters protoss with full confidence in the ability of 1 base all-ins to break any and all economic "cheese" (fast expansions) that either zerg, terran, or protoss will attempt.
4gating-
-strong
-more difficult to pull off vs heavy bunkers
-quite ineffective on shakuras where pushing up the ramp to the natural makes it incredibly hard to pull off and you must basically commit entirely to the push
-relies a lot on forcefield micro and decision making
when you 4gate a terran that just fe'd they will most likely have 2-4 bunkers posted up filled with only marines, and maybe a few marauders depending on your timing. You will deffinately need to be heavy on zealout/sentry composition so you can forcefield the bunkers to prevent repair. This is the key, and if you cannot kill the bunkers and the units inside in a timely fashion or without to many losses then you are going to get outmacro'd and just lose to an MM push as soon as stim finishes.
Blink Stalkers
3gate or 4gate blinkstalkers (your choice) are very good alternative to a straight 4gate. The 3gate blinkstalkers can hit at the same time a hard 4gate does, and the 4gate blinkstalker can hit at the same time an eco-4gate does. The biggest difference is (obviously) manuverability. This allows you to engage his natural or his army without having to commit, because you can blink your stalkers back before they are killed. In this way, with strong micro, you can build up a large group of stalkers while keeping his unit count low. Another benefit is the ability to completely bypass his natural, blinking past any bunkers he may have down and heading straight into the main. The best technique for this is to blink 1 or 2 stalkers forward past the bunkers and then have them run up, which gives vision for the rest of your stalkers to blink up the side of his main (this is map dependent and not necessary if he didn't wall in). With this technique you will be able to warp reinforcement zealouts into his base with a well placed proxy pylon. Often you can catch the opponent offgaurd and warp sentries to forcefield the ramp, but this is again just a stylistic choice and one way isn't better than the other necessarily. When you do this you will want to be carefull of him pulling all scv's, as they can get a quick surround on your stalkers while blink is on cooldown, so just stutter-step micro around till you have blink and can fully engage any marines/scvs. When you have blinked into his base you will want to remember that your next blink will determine wether you are all-in or not, as if you start blink-micro for survival then you are all- in, and you won't be able to blink out of the base.
-better than 4gate vs 3+bunkers
-strong vs marines
-high mobility
-not as all-in
-better follow ups (you have a tech structure)
3gate Robo
This build is another all-in that you can use in your arsenal vs a 2gate fe. It is definitely the least all-in, as you are much safer from late cloaked banshees and have the most optimal tech structure for a follow up. I think it is not only the safest but i also believe that it is possibly the strongest and hardest to stop. It utilizes the immortal, which is INCREDIBLY cost effective early game. Immortals deal 50 dmg per shot to bunkers, has incredible health, and is equivalent to 2 flimsy stalkers that would be produced from a 4gate. Not only is it cost efficient but it is efficient from a time/production point of view. Instead of producing a 4th gateway unit you get a much beefier immortal while continuing to produce off of your other 3 gateways. When pushing with this build you want to have a zealout/sentry heavy gateway army, which will allow full production off of all 4 structures, and is really the most cost efficient. Stalkers should not really be warped in unless you can get a good angle on his natural or if you can shoot at a wall-in with your observer. you have your initial 2 or 3 stalkers and these should be kept alive through good forcefield and army micro. It is important to use forcefields on the bunkers to prevent repair but also you should save some forcefield energy for when the bunkers are dead to trap the kiting marines, as your army is not nearly as manuverable as a 4gate or blinkstalker army. Overall this build probably is the strongest, safest, and most easily executable all-in that protoss have.
-very strong vs heavy bunkers
-cost effective units
-safe vs cloak
-good transitions
-easy to pull back and expand safely
6gate
This build is the most all-in you can get, making 6 production structures to allow the maximum unit count for maximum dps at the start and throughout your push. It is the strongest against any marine heavy defense, and weakest against bunker heavy defense. It is most dependant on your micro of forcefields and your timings. If your initial push does not work, then you have no transitions and you will lose, but it is a very strong initial strike and can constantly reinforce with much larger groups of units than any of the other builds. This build is probably the best build you can use on a map like blistering sands, as you have full access to his base through the back door, but if your opponent 2 rax fe's on blistering then he's probably crazy anyway.
-best against few bunkers and large chokes
-weak against bunkers
-unit cost efficient
-not manuverable
-forcefield micro heavy
I have not provided any build orders, as you can get those yourself through personal choice/experience or just using the search option. Before any of you yell at me about transitioning out of an all-in, i just want to say yeah i know it's not optimal. If you clearly are not going to break your opponent (you went for the wrong build or he did something unexpected) then you should back up, throw down a nexus, and work to counter his build while defending safely. Sentries and immortals are great defensive units, along with a cannon or 2 at the front while using the forge for some fast upgrades. A good transition for 3gate robo is obviously to make a collo den and start teching up, or to drop another robo bay and start pumping double immortal with zealout sentry and get fast upgrades. Blinkstalkers should probably drop a robo bay for observers, and then tech to dark templar to expand/contain. Overall these builds are all-in and you should really rely on your ability to micro to win you the game.
3.3k masters toss
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I believe toss are learning how to play against this build, I've had much less success as a terran using 2 rax no gas. Here's a couple of things to note:
1) 2 rax no gas means very early game he will have more marines than you can handle, so as usual make sure you go sentry to prevent the terran from getting too aggressive and moving up the ramp.
2) If you have a sentry or 2 I don't believe you have to worry about a marine/scv all-in, it just wont work.
3) Generally the 2 rax no gas is a cover for a fast expo. Cutting gas (75 min) + keeping 3 workers on minerals (+lots more) lead to a much faster expansion timing for a terran. Couple this with the fact that very early on the terran can keep you penned in your base and you see it puts the terran ahead if he can get away with the fast expo, don't let him.
4) Getting gas late will mean terran is going to be tech starved once he moves out of the early game.
5) Best response I believe is a strong opening. You have to punish the FE, this happens to work well too since terran is tech starved. That said I don't think 4 gate works terribly well, 3 gate robo I think is the best. When you start to push the terran be careful (he'll have bunkers) and make sure to drop your expo as you push out.
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3 gate robo is my choice here, since it will work against either FE or some kind of fake-out build. This my general reaction to no gas terran
- stalker/stalker from first gate to harass marines and to scout. you will need to actively manage these stalkers to see whats going on and to pick off marines. stalkers should never die to unstimmed marines at this point of the game.
- add robo and 3rd gate once I have the resources
- chrono'd obs to see inside base
here's where things branch out a bit.
1. if he's going marine-scv all-in, you would've had quite a bit of notice with your stalkers in the front and you should be warping in stalker/sentry into your main and getting ready to defend.
2. if he's going FE, I personally like to get immortal/zealot/sentry. There's a very sweet timing when he's lifting off his cc where his bunkers are being built and he will be caught out of position at his choke (he will not be able to come down the ramp with marines due to your stalkers). if your army is there at that time he's pretty much lost the game
3. if you find out his gas was just delayed and he's teching, then this is no different from any other game so just play as normal.
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I love how everyone OUTRIGHT slammed what the PROGAMER from VT wrote... A 4 gate puts you AT THE VERY LEAST even in army if they go for some crazy multirax pressure, if they're attempting to expand either their CC is canceled/killed on the low ground or stuck in their base.
With decent micro you could attempt a break. With some long game focus, you could skew your comp towards sentries, and contain him while you get up an expand with the extra minerals you get for not making many stalkers/zealots.
The argument for delayed 3 rax is almost idiotic. Why? Because if the vespene of the Terran is taken slowly then the army comp of the Terran is paper against a normal 4 gate comp. If the gas is taken aggressively, the 3 rax resumes as it usually would then it's simply got a much slower critical mass of marauders, and can be fought at the pressuring Protoss player's leisure. (No early gas means no early marauder pressure)
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Personally, I assume either a rax all-in is coming or a FE, usually the latter being true.
I recommend you just 1 gate FE in response to this and macro it out.
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On February 25 2011 10:27 ecstazy wrote:
just 4 gate.
Prolly his response to everything.
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EPT
