|
So guys, assuming that I send my probe on 9 to scout the terran fellow and the probe gets inside T base, what if i see that the terran has no gas?
by general standards, terran go for gas ~ 13 supply, but by the time goes in and he is getting orbital command if i spot that he has no gas what is the best way to respond to this?
because a Terran that goes for no gas is either going for some kind of fake 3 rax where he throws down 2 rax or proxies them somewhere so you do not scout it, and get sdouble refinery for his addons or he goes for either a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax marine scv all in.
which build order in response from Protoss would be the best thing to do in this situation?
I've bee nexperimenting with this and I am not quite sure how to tackle this scenario.
and oh yes, terran could also be going for late banshees, so a obs is a must.
|
Russian Federation59 Posts
When I see terran go for no gas - makes me think it's either a fast expand or a 4/5 rax semi-all in pressure. So i just 4 gate. If he attacks, i'll have tonnes of units to defend and then finish him off. If he expands - I'll kill him/take out his expo/fail miserably if my opponent is considerably better than me (haven't seen that happen yet, but i think it's somehow possible to expand against a 4 gate in TvP).
4 gate (even if it's fairly economical) should strike much eariler than a late banshee (early banshee is like 7 mins, and 4 gate that isn't super early attacks at roughly the same time) - he won't even have a chance to get a banshee out in time for a 4 gate if he didn't take early gas.
2.5k daimond
|
On February 25 2011 10:27 ecstazy wrote:
When I see terran go for no gas - makes me think it's either a fast expand or a 4/5 rax semi-all in pressure. So i just 4 gate. If he attacks, i'll have tonnes of units to defend and then finish him off. If he expands - I'll kill him/take out his expo/fail miserably if my opponent is considerably better than me (haven't seen that happen yet, but i think it's somehow possible to expand against a 4 gate in TvP).
4 gate (even if it's fairly economical) should strike much eariler than a late banshee (early banshee is like 7 mins, and 4 gate that isn't super early attacks at roughly the same time) - he won't even have a chance to get a banshee out in time for a 4 gate if he didn't take early gas.
2.5k daimond
No... terran builds expansion in the main if they are going 1 rax fe, even if you go 4 gate you will not be able to attack since they will have bunkers with marines and scvs repairing at the top, they can just build up units and then push out with their command center with more scvs than you have probes... so that is no good.
|
On February 25 2011 10:31 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:27 ecstazy wrote:
When I see terran go for no gas - makes me think it's either a fast expand or a 4/5 rax semi-all in pressure. So i just 4 gate. If he attacks, i'll have tonnes of units to defend and then finish him off. If he expands - I'll kill him/take out his expo/fail miserably if my opponent is considerably better than me (haven't seen that happen yet, but i think it's somehow possible to expand against a 4 gate in TvP).
4 gate (even if it's fairly economical) should strike much eariler than a late banshee (early banshee is like 7 mins, and 4 gate that isn't super early attacks at roughly the same time) - he won't even have a chance to get a banshee out in time for a 4 gate if he didn't take early gas.
2.5k daimond No... terran builds expansion in the main if they are going 1 rax fe, even if you go 4 gate you will not be able to attack since they will have bunkers with marines and scvs repairing at the top, they can just build up units and then push out with their command center with more scvs than you have probes... so that is no good.
You can forcefield the bunker and prevent repairs while the zealots can still hit and the stalkers can still shoot.
|
Russian Federation59 Posts
On February 25 2011 10:31 pandaBee wrote:
No... terran builds expansion in the main if they are going 1 rax fe, even if you go 4 gate you will not be able to attack since they will have bunkers with marines and scvs repairing at the top, they can just build up units and then push out with their command center with more scvs than you have probes... so that is no good.
Options:
1. Sentry forcefields behind his bunkers to keep scvs away from repairing it and then kill it. No bunker = no problem. If he expanded and put down a bunker that was never salvaged, that's 500 minerals less in army - with good micro, it should be simple to kill for a 4 gate.
2. Camp outside his base with 6 sentries and a few stalkers and constantly forcefield his ramp if he tries to move down while expanding the map and getting robo and other tech etc.
So 4 gate is good. At least it worked for me when I faced no gas terrans.
|
Well most likely a Fast expansion, thats one of the only reason why i would think that a terran would have no gas in the beginning. Or it could be a pressure build such as 4 or 5 rax. And if you dont see either scout the rest of the map, their is most likely a proxy rax. A proper response would be to get your own expansion out of a 2 gate or something. And when the terran is at a macro stage take another base, and completely out macro your opponent, since it seems that most of the terran player are very passive players you wont have to worry about a lot of pressure.
|
On February 25 2011 10:27 ecstazy wrote:
When I see terran go for no gas - makes me think it's either a fast expand or a 4/5 rax semi-all in pressure. So i just 4 gate. If he attacks, i'll have tonnes of units to defend and then finish him off. If he expands - I'll kill him/take out his expo/fail miserably if my opponent is considerably better than me (haven't seen that happen yet, but i think it's somehow possible to expand against a 4 gate in TvP).
4 gate (even if it's fairly economical) should strike much eariler than a late banshee (early banshee is like 7 mins, and 4 gate that isn't super early attacks at roughly the same time) - he won't even have a chance to get a banshee out in time for a 4 gate if he didn't take early gas.
2.5k daimond
Pretty good assessment of what is most likely to happen, yes Terran can chill on the high ground in their main but you can respond with ff their ramp and expoing or trying to break them (with good micro it is possible).
|
I would say 4 gate is a bad decision (depending on the map), it will fail most of the time in higher level. Probably the best response is something like warp prism+3-4gate/DT or the best option would be to expand yourself and take it to the late game where you will have an advantage due to your tech. Voidrays works depending on the map, however i only see terran doing this on maps like shakuras and LT so you cant pass the bunkers/otherwise 4gate will kill terran 
|
4 gate is the wrong decision, if they are probably going fast expansion off of 2 rax (1 rax no gas expansion is very hard to do, and I doubt people still do it) and 3 bunkers at nat, which you will not be able to break. Blink stalkers or warp prism harass is the way to go.
|
4 gate pushes after 6 minutes cannot kill a good 2racks expand into 4/5 racks MnM.. except maybe proxies, but that's not being discussed
|
Russian Federation266 Posts
On February 25 2011 09:59 pandaBee wrote:
So guys, assuming that I send my probe on 9 to scout the terran fellow and the probe gets inside T base, what if i see that the terran has no gas?
by general standards, terran go for gas ~ 13 supply, but by the time goes in and he is getting orbital command if i spot that he has no gas what is the best way to respond to this?
because a Terran that goes for no gas is either going for some kind of fake 3 rax where he throws down 2 rax or proxies them somewhere so you do not scout it, and get sdouble refinery for his addons or he goes for either a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax marine scv all in.
which build order in response from Protoss would be the best thing to do in this situation?
I've bee nexperimenting with this and I am not quite sure how to tackle this scenario.
and oh yes, terran could also be going for late banshees, so a obs is a must.
Expand or marine all-in is propobly all that can come from a no gas opening, unless we are talking bronse league.
A 4WG responce was suggested, and I have to agree on it for anything up to high diamond. Generaly, at that level a terran will know to hit with marines before warpgates are up and he will know how to defend his FE against a 4WG. Sure it can still win games even in masters league, but it will loose more and more the better the players are.
My recomendation against a no-gas terran is to:
- Scout his base as bast you can for as long as you can to spot extra rax, send a second probe to scout proxy locations. Make sure its not a marine all-in. Use that second probe to keep an eye on your opponent moving out \ landing his orbital. Sack it up the ramp if he doesn't do either for a long time to see how many and what units he has.
Then follow up with of the following:
A) Do a FE build of your choice, keeping in mind you can delay your robo and spend more chronoboost on probes once you are sure it is not a marine all-in.
B) Do a Harass -> expand build of your choice. Again, you can delay your detection and cut back on units ocne you are sure it is not a marine all-in.
|
I'd just go 3 gate expo and attack with stalker/sentry if its an expo. no zealots. you will destroy a marine/bunker defense that's light on marauders.
Of the top of my head, see MC v Jinro on XNC a couple of GSLs ago.
|
if he has no gas by 16-18 food i just 4gate. 1 gas/ cut probes at 20-22.
first wave of 4gate is 4 stalkers, plus your initial zealot + 2 stalkers.
place 2nd proxy pylon at a spot you can warp to high ground if he hasn't moved down to natural yet. should beat any marine cheese or no-gas econ build unless he has vastly superior micro.
3k diamond
|
On February 25 2011 11:30 Tsabo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:59 pandaBee wrote:
So guys, assuming that I send my probe on 9 to scout the terran fellow and the probe gets inside T base, what if i see that the terran has no gas?
by general standards, terran go for gas ~ 13 supply, but by the time goes in and he is getting orbital command if i spot that he has no gas what is the best way to respond to this?
because a Terran that goes for no gas is either going for some kind of fake 3 rax where he throws down 2 rax or proxies them somewhere so you do not scout it, and get sdouble refinery for his addons or he goes for either a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax marine scv all in.
which build order in response from Protoss would be the best thing to do in this situation?
I've bee nexperimenting with this and I am not quite sure how to tackle this scenario.
and oh yes, terran could also be going for late banshees, so a obs is a must. Expand or marine all-in is propobly all that can come from a no gas opening, unless we are talking bronse league. A 4WG responce was suggested, and I have to agree on it for anything up to high diamond. Generaly, at that level a terran will know to hit with marines before warpgates are up and he will know how to defend his FE against a 4WG. Sure it can still win games even in masters league, but it will loose more and more the better the players are. My recomendation against a no-gas terran is to: - Scout his base as bast you can for as long as you can to spot extra rax, send a second probe to scout proxy locations. Make sure its not a marine all-in. Use that second probe to keep an eye on your opponent moving out \ landing his orbital. Sack it up the ramp if he doesn't do either for a long time to see how many and what units he has. Then follow up with of the following: A) Do a FE build of your choice, keeping in mind you can delay your robo and spend more chronoboost on probes once you are sure it is not a marine all-in. B) Do a Harass -> expand build of your choice. Again, you can delay your detection and cut back on units ocne you are sure it is not a marine all-in.
for A) could you be more specific as to what kind of FE build? how many gates, what tech, units, etc.
because the problem with FE builds for me (either 1 gate or 3 gate expand) is that the terran can always just do a delayed 3 rax push... which can be very powerful because you can't get a robo fast enough to scout it before he starts pushing out if you expanded... 4 gate does not work too well either and i would rather not consider this as a option.
|
On February 25 2011 11:47 dar0za wrote:
if he has no gas by 16-18 food i just 4gate. 1 gas/ cut probes at 20-22.
first wave of 4gate is 4 stalkers, plus your initial zealot + 2 stalkers.
place 2nd proxy pylon at a spot you can warp to high ground if he hasn't moved down to natural yet. should beat any marine cheese or no-gas econ build unless he has vastly superior micro.
3k diamond
the problem is if he actually did a a fake/delayed 3 rax ( as in not getting any gas to make me think i am going to expand ) this push will not work and i will lose my forces if i move up that ramp because of conc shell
|
Russian Federation266 Posts
On February 25 2011 12:26 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 11:30 Tsabo wrote:On February 25 2011 09:59 pandaBee wrote:
So guys, assuming that I send my probe on 9 to scout the terran fellow and the probe gets inside T base, what if i see that the terran has no gas?
by general standards, terran go for gas ~ 13 supply, but by the time goes in and he is getting orbital command if i spot that he has no gas what is the best way to respond to this?
because a Terran that goes for no gas is either going for some kind of fake 3 rax where he throws down 2 rax or proxies them somewhere so you do not scout it, and get sdouble refinery for his addons or he goes for either a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax marine scv all in.
which build order in response from Protoss would be the best thing to do in this situation?
I've bee nexperimenting with this and I am not quite sure how to tackle this scenario.
and oh yes, terran could also be going for late banshees, so a obs is a must. Expand or marine all-in is propobly all that can come from a no gas opening, unless we are talking bronse league. A 4WG responce was suggested, and I have to agree on it for anything up to high diamond. Generaly, at that level a terran will know to hit with marines before warpgates are up and he will know how to defend his FE against a 4WG. Sure it can still win games even in masters league, but it will loose more and more the better the players are. My recomendation against a no-gas terran is to: - Scout his base as bast you can for as long as you can to spot extra rax, send a second probe to scout proxy locations. Make sure its not a marine all-in. Use that second probe to keep an eye on your opponent moving out \ landing his orbital. Sack it up the ramp if he doesn't do either for a long time to see how many and what units he has. Then follow up with of the following: A) Do a FE build of your choice, keeping in mind you can delay your robo and spend more chronoboost on probes once you are sure it is not a marine all-in. B) Do a Harass -> expand build of your choice. Again, you can delay your detection and cut back on units ocne you are sure it is not a marine all-in. for A) could you be more specific as to what kind of FE build? how many gates, what tech, units, etc. because the problem with FE builds for me (either 1 gate or 3 gate expand) is that the terran can always just do a delayed 3 rax push... which can be very powerful because you can't get a robo fast enough to scout it before he starts pushing out if you expanded... 4 gate does not work too well either and i would rather not consider this as a option.
It's much simpler and harder then what you think.
It's Hard, because:
You are asking for a complete revision of a FE build, that takes in to account that:
- You are playing against a 1Rax -> no gas -> something player. (presumably something = FE, but you can't know for sure)
- You only start going for the FE build after you scout no gas.
Its something that whold take alot of time and effort, and is very comlicated. Anyone who will say something like "go gate->core->expo-->add 2 gate->second gas->robo->*insert more random buildings*" will just be giving out something that works for him with his micro/macro/scouting skills against oppontns of his level, but you might be better off with a diffrent build yourself.
It's Simple because:
You don't acutaly need to have a specific build for this sort of situation. Pick any FE build you like to do and go strait into it once you see no gas and feel that it isn't an all-in. It can be anything from 17 nexus to a 3 gateway expand.
What you have to realise that from this point its a normal game of you doing your favorite FE build against an opponent who didn't get gas. And it's best to discuss how to play it in another thread.
+ Show Spoiler +In general you hold a dealyed 3 rax with sentry/stalker/immortal and good FFs
|
Kind of on topic as I think scouting is the key here. A cool trick I picked up from Hongun vs. oGsTop the other day in GSL is to send your first stalker and a probe together to poke... Dont attack with the probe, the idea is to draw the couple of bio units' fire onto the stalker while the probe has no attack priority... just run it into the base and see what you can. Using this method Hongun was able to scout the command center being constructed in oGsTop's base. As soon as he saw the CC as the probe died, he started his nexus knowing he would be safe. The simple scouting technique pretty much dictated how he was going to play the rest of the game out.
Obviously it wont work against a wall off, though i still recommend poking up with a zealot or stalker against a wall off to see what theyve got up there.
Oh, P.S. Top even had 2 marines at the Bottom of his ramp and 1 marauder at the top, but the probe was still able to get up the ramp past them because the initial fire was on the stalker.
|
4gate isn't right thing to do. Terran could just go little bit later gas than usual or might go 1rax expand with cutted scv production and mass marines and mass bunkers. 4gate is just blind counter =/. I think 1gate expansion is proper way to go in most cases and then to add many gates since he can't support cloak banshee right away so you don't need robo so quick
|
well, you need to think of the things a terran can't have without gas... Stim, Sheilds, Reactors, Tech labs, ups. So, to me... zealots will be effective, any opening you choose will be safe, and it will be hard with him to fuck with an expo when there is no stim.
So basically, your safe.
|
You could play like Princesomething in the newest day9 daily. Cut drones, don´t get the third pylon and get a nexus asap. Then poke with a zealot and two stalkers while building additional gateways and resuming probe production. You should be able to tell what he does from the poke and if he goes for a marine allin just cancel your expo and chrono boost some sentries out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
