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added a new replay:
 vs  Michael vs htok ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) (double bunker ramp into 1-1-1, win)
On March 08 2011 06:17 deathly rat wrote:
Hi, I was watching a stream today and someone did a 11RR against a protoss forge FE (crushed it), so I've been practicing your build order a bit today. My question is how does this timing work out vs standard early agression from P & T? I mean, do you have to go and check that they aren't cheesing you, or do you get the roaches fast enough to deal with anything you find anyway?
Also, every time I try this I end up with 10 roaches, not 11. I'm gonna watch your replays, but do you know why this happens? I noticed that your build order doesn't make sense at one point because it says 13 pool, 3 drones, 16 overlord, but you lose 1 supply making the spawning pool, is this the problem?
I don't know that I'd recommend this build vs a forge FE. I think if you saw that, just make a warren as soon as possible and spam roaches ad infinitum (if you scout early enough).
Vs Terran, there really isn't anything he can do as far as aggression, even in close positions. Your 4 lings + queen + your initial creep is going to prevent him from doing much more than bunkering your ramp, and even if he does that, it's not going to slow your roaches down, but it is going to slow his tech/army production down by everything he invested in that block.
There are a couple replays with players doing early 2-rax aggression and just general timing stuff, but in order for anything to get to YOUR base in the first 5 minutes, it needs to be leaving his by about 4:20-30, and there isn't a lot he can have at that time, and certainly not enough to overcome 4 lings and a queen.
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Hi, i've been practicing this build quite a lot vs computer and I have adjusted the build very slightly so that I can get 11 Roaches every time with very low minerals and gas. Basically I was getting gas blocked so just get both gas on 21 and then a drone, then back to roach warren etc.
10 Extractor Trick Drone
11 Overlord
(Drone x2)
13 Spawning Pool
(Drone x4)
16 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zergling 2x2
(Drone x1)
21 Extractor x2 (6 on gas immediately)
(Drone x1)
20 Roach Warren (immediately after gas)
19 Overlord x2
19 Roach x11 (Finish at ~5:45-6:00)
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On March 11 2011 04:56 deathly rat wrote:
Hi, i've been practicing this build quite a lot vs computer and I have adjusted the build very slightly so that I can get 11 Roaches every time with very low minerals and gas. Basically I was getting gas blocked so just get both gas on 21 and then a drone, then back to roach warren etc.
10 Extractor Trick Drone
11 Overlord
(Drone x2)
13 Spawning Pool
(Drone x4)
16 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zergling 2x2
(Drone x1)
21 Extractor x2 (6 on gas immediately)
(Drone x1)
20 Roach Warren (immediately after gas)
19 Overlord x2
19 Roach x11 (Finish at ~5:45-6:00)
If you wouldn't mind posting a replay, I'd be happy to share it in the OP.
I think getting gas a smidge earlier if your timings aren't great would be a good idea. Sometimes my pool can be up to 8-10 seconds late if I don't properly micro my drones in the opening minute or so, and it does mess up the gas timing.
Lately I've been experimenting with a different roach pressure build vs. Terran (and with higher success), but I would be glad to still update this with better information if such information is available.
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Click the name of the game he lost. That was against a 3100 masters player. I'm 100000% sure he's better than you. This build should be the standard for ZvT.
Bad logic... just because it worked that one time against a 3100 masters player, it does not mean it will "work" against anyone lower than that level.
I also would like to ask: how do you stop a 2 rax? Not a 2 rax transition into FE or such like you described which the 11 roaches will counter, but if he goes 2 rax and just keeps getting more rax, how will you have enough larvae to deal with 2 rax or even a SCV all-in?
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There seems to be a lot of scared terrans here. Trying to do all they can to bash the build.
I haven't tried this, and Im not sure I will, but the concept seems pretty similar to terrans blue flame hellion into banshee build witch also is one base for a long time. It has to do some damage, but it doesnt need to end the game there and then. It will most likely throw the opponent of his game..
I often expand to my third first, to fake a one base play when I see 2 rax openings, and throw the opponent off. Because of speedlings the extra distance doesnt really matter that much early game against a 2 rax if it gets scouted. It might not be the best idea to do a huge drone transfer because of the distance though. If scouted its either an all-in attempt or t just expands, in witch case it lines up good with an early third at natural.
Point is, I think it can be good to mix up the play, and not be so obvious and standard about everything
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On March 13 2011 15:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +Click the name of the game he lost. That was against a 3100 masters player. I'm 100000% sure he's better than you. This build should be the standard for ZvT. Bad logic... just because it worked that one time against a 3100 masters player, it does not mean it will "work" against anyone lower than that level. I also would like to ask: how do you stop a 2 rax? Not a 2 rax transition into FE or such like you described which the 11 roaches will counter, but if he goes 2 rax and just keeps getting more rax, how will you have enough larvae to deal with 2 rax or even a SCV all-in?
That guy was off-racing, but he's still a good player. His 2-rax aggression wasn't so great, but the concept is the same.
If someone 2-raxes and just pumps marines and aggresses, everything he sends is going to die. There's no kiting a wall of roaches or salvaging it. Either you cut and run, or everything dies to superior forces.
Larva production is only an issue if you're spamming lings. 2-rax is VERY powerful against FE + speedling openers, which is the most common early game in zvt right now and has been for a while.
But roaches are much more larva efficient, and the production is not a problem. It's not uncommon for someone stockpiling larva to surge ahead by as much as 10-15 food very briefly.
SCV all-in simply wouldn't be a problem at all. It doesn't matter what he sends, it's going to fail against roaches on creep that can kite. You can't beat something that's a hard counter to your army composition, and even though marines beat roaches at cost for higher numbers of marines, you can't achieve those numbers in the opening few minutes of the game.
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EPT
