EPTOn February 23 2011 16:32 Protonoid wrote:
Sounds interesting, I'll give it a shot on ladder and see how it goes
Sounds interesting, I'll give it a shot on ladder and see how it goes
If you do please post a replay!
[G] ZvT: 11RR to 1-Base Muta (2-rax counter) - Page 2
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
If you do please post a replay! | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
 vs  (D) Michael vs Bloodbank ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) (1-1-1, win)Here the player went 1-1-1 marauder tank banshee. The initial roach push was marginally successful, and the mutas cleaned up. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
the terran didnt scout properly and expected one base mutas and responded with marines and and an expansion and hand-delivered you victory; you then broke his wall and killed his army but stopped reinforcing and instead teched for mutas even when you knew that the terran has lots of rines | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143424-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau two games where I tried this, any tips? (won both but only just). There was another ZT that I lost by heaps transitioning to infestors and banelings, its cringeworthy and I know most of the mistakes I made. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143425-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau | ||
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Protonoid
United States23 Posts
This game was particularly fun because just as his banshee cleaned up my roaches, the mutas spawned: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143489-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On February 23 2011 21:08 Alphasquad wrote: i watched one game on lt and it already shows that strategies with a fixed design are quite silly the terran didnt scout properly and expected one base mutas and responded with marines and and an expansion and hand-delivered you victory; you then broke his wall and killed his army but stopped reinforcing and instead teched for mutas even when you knew that the terran has lots of rines I don't know if the blind roach commitment would have ended the game due to the travel distance, but it probably would have been close. I do a blind muta transition the moment I move out so that if the roach bust fails, I have a different tech that should require a different response that hits only 90 seconds after the first exchange. The whole point of this build is to end the game as quickly as possible, and I feel that most of the time, if the initial 11 Roaches don't win, the mutas provide the best means to follow-up. And I have to make this decision as I leave my ramp, about 30 seconds before I engage. At that moment, there is no way to know whether I will break him or not, nor how he will respond (only marines? marauder/tank? etc). I do think there's a good chance I could have won by going all-in on roaches in that game though. On February 23 2011 23:10 zergrushkekeke wrote: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143423-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143424-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau two games where I tried this, any tips? (won both but only just). There was another ZT that I lost by heaps transitioning to infestors and banelings, its cringeworthy and I know most of the mistakes I made. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143425-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau Hi, thanks for posting the replays. Game 1 (Scrap): Seems you went for a 12 gas and then did this off 1 gas. You ended up with 10 roaches instead of 11, and were very slightly late. Also, Scrap Station has a very long rush distance, which already gimps the rush from the start of the game. It looks like you arrived at about 7 minutes, but seemed to still work out in your favor. Game 2 (Shak): You went for 12 gas again and hit with 10 later roaches again. Your attack didn't enter his base until about 8:05 since you went through the back door, and you didn't spot with your OL. Still, the 1-1-1 was eaten up by the mutas. Personally I would have gone for his workers and then defended the all-in, but you had the game won by that point anyway. Game 3 (Shak): 12 gas, 10 late roach again. The roaches are slightly late but more or less on time. The big issue here is the lack of OL spotting which forces you into a bottleneck on the ramp. Your front roaches then take 100% of the fire from his marines, evening the fight considerably. At this point you are basically even, and I think the transition you did is absolutely fine if you want to play a normal game. On February 24 2011 04:04 Protonoid wrote: Tried it a couple of times in silver and it was awesome. The roaches do so much dmg, the mutas are just there to add salt to the wound. This game was particularly fun because just as his banshee cleaned up my roaches, the mutas spawned: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143489-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war Thanks for submitting your replay! Your roaches ended up a tad late due to slow injections/OL production, but due to the short attack path it didn't affect you too much. You broke in and KO'd him and I'd say outside of the mild macro slip before you pushed out, I think you executed this more or less perfectly. I'm glad it worked out for you! | ||
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Zalias
Lithuania79 Posts
And if you start transitioning into expand after first 4 - 5 roaches, you are already behind... | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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dangerjoe
Denmark1866 Posts
This build seems very well thought out, it actually made me want to play zerg for a second there ^^ | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On February 24 2011 09:25 Zalias wrote: I don't feel like this can stand a chance vs transition into 4 rax stim all in. Not all terrans makes 2 rax. To check that with this build you need MEGA early scout and still the only indicator can be no gas ( good terrans sometimes even take gas or fake it). If you don't scout, you simply auto lose to any clock banshee openning since it comes allmost the same time you start hitting his base with your roaches. This might work versus stupid terran, no offence, but this is very depended on luck. And if you start transitioning into expand after first 4 - 5 roaches, you are already behind... I don't think a 4-rax all-in would be a counter or even beat this build tbh, as the timings are too late and the roaches would have pushed out by the time they meat. If the scvs come you could just kite. I haven't faced this build once so I can't do more than speculate. I personally feel there's no reason to scout because I don't drone scout because I don't think there's anything the Terran can reasonably do that will outright beat this build in the first 3:30, and my lings can scout by 4:00. As for the banshee, the only way a banshee can be finished by 6:30 WITH cloak is if he went 1-1-1 and didn't make any marines. When you scout the ramp with lings and don't see that Terran has anything, you just attack with every roach as it comes out, rather than wait for all 11. By the time his banshee has killed off your roaches, he'll already have lost most of his workers and a lot of his base, and by the time he gets to you, you have two queens, lair tech and can just trade 1 muta for overseer if he managed to finish cloak. Rushing banshee is not viable at all vs this. The only luck involved is whether your opponent is skilled enough to know how to manage his command center energy and respond to what he sees if he scans. That's some higher level decision-making that most terran players below master league simply don't do. On February 24 2011 09:29 FabledIntegral wrote: Out of curiosity, you say you should have around 30 mutas when you expand. Would it not be better to expand after around 24-25 drones, and simply accumulate larvae? You'll only experience a marginal return in mineral count, which would be made up by getting a faster expansion, no? It seems more economical to do so, and at the very least doesn't show your opponent you're on one base. The reason for 30 drones is because there is larva there to support it getting 30 drones just before you pop your 5 mutas (the most you can make off 2 gas in this transition). I do see your point and I think an expansion should probably be dropped as soon as the spire goes down. I usually don't think about expanding because I'm just trying to end the game, but there really is no reason not to expand at this point, and given that the spire and hatch both have 100 second build times, a 2-base muta follow-up or any number of other options is surely feasible. Thanks for pointing this out. | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
I must admit it feels limiting to pool so much larva at the start, since if it was spent the hatch would create a few more units worth of larva. Would it be possible to pool larva in this way (maybe the send and third vomits) to get mass hydras vs protoss? The only thing I see on ladders is 4 gates still so i guess it would only work if the timing fits. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On February 24 2011 10:39 zergrushkekeke wrote: Thanks for the tips. my usual build build vs P is 13 pool 12 gas so it is a hard habit to break. I will have to watch some replays and try this again. I must admit it feels limiting to pool so much larva at the start, since if it was spent the hatch would create a few more units worth of larva. Would it be possible to pool larva in this way (maybe the send and third vomits) to get mass hydras vs protoss? The only thing I see on ladders is 4 gates still so i guess it would only work if the timing fits. Well, if you pool larva the way I do in this build, you only lose 1 larva from sub-3 regeneration. You don't need to pop 11 at once, but all 11 should be done by about 5:50 so you can push out. If you want to hit earlier and with fewer roaches, you certainly can. I haven't looked into doing any kind of hydra rush build vs protoss, but you can mess around with CarbonTwelve's SCBuildOrder program and try it out. | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143875-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
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eluv
United States1251 Posts
In all seriousness, I can't see this working at all against a FE that bunkers up, and unless you scout hatch first, I think any Terran is going to throw up at least a bunker or two, and likely more when they see no expo. The mutalisk followup could pose a problem, but as long as the T saves even half their scv's, they should at the very least come out even. | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
I've had more luck going back to FE, spines and banes, the early game fight is all defending rine - hellion - banshee harass but it feels stronger compared to basing the whole success of your game on an earlyish push that still has to bust the ramp of a terran. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
edit: nvm, i underestimate the power of 11 roaches. | ||
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