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Inspired/refined from dehdar's thread here: [Z] How to cheese your way to Master League
(ZvT) Delayed 11 Roach Rush Into 1-Base Muta
Strategy: delayed warren (3:45-4:00) into 11 roach rush (hits at 5:45 [5-7] or 6:30 [11] ) into 1-base muta (hits at 10:30-11:00), then expand if necessary. The key is stockpiling larva/minerals in order to transfer those into a powerful burst of roaches.
Goal: This is optimized to counter a number of 2-rax openings that Terran will do, especially 2-rax into mech and 2-rax into FE. It is designed to quickly beat the average diamond-level player who doesn't follow-up on initial scouting.
* In my testing, it seems to break even with master-level players and you must transition to a normal macro game afterward. Against lower players (mid/high Diamond and below) it has shown so far to be a consistent quick-win. I don't necessarily condone this build at or above low master level.
Build:
10 Extractor Trick Drone
11 Overlord
(Drone x2)
13 Spawning Pool
(Drone x3)
16 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zergling 2x2
(Drone x2)
22 Extractor x2 (6 on gas immediately)
20 Roach Warren (immediately after gas)
20 Overlord x2
20 Roach x11 (Finish at ~5:45-6:00)
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Lair @100 gas
Expand
Spam Drones/OL
Spire @Lair finish (You should have 30 drones before mutas)
5-6 Muta @Spire finish (spawn 9:30-10:00)
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Free transition to standard play if mutas don't end the game.
* Thanks to FabledIntegral for improved expansion timing.
Execution:
- Overlord positioning is key, as it allows you to spot the terran's ramp and kill his bunker/SD/anything else before you push in AND more importantly gives you a concave.
- At ~20 supply, your money will start to build up. It's very key to execute the double extractor + roach + inject correctly, as the queen will basically pop right when you need to do all 4 things at once.
- You will larva cap shortly before the warren pops, but you'll only lose ~1 larva.
- When you finish your initial 11 Roaches and send them out, DON'T PULL OFF GAS. Immediately get Lair tech @100 gas and then spire and then mutas. You need all the gas you can get, and you'll be using every additional larva for drone/OL until shortly before the spire/inject pop.
- If you scout the ramp of the Terran player and don't see enough stuff, the Terran is teching 1-1-1 or 2-port banshee. Attack with 5-7 Roaches as you build your remaining ones. If you scout a reasonable amount of units, you can probably wait for all 11.
How to Counter:
- Don't let your scouting SCV die, keep him incognito. Make sure you scout that there is NO EXPANSION around 4-4:30.
- Scan his base if you can't get your worker up his ramp.
- If you scout anything that looks like 1-base roach (gas, warren, no expansion, lot of drones), use your marines to hunt his forward overlord which will be within 20 squares of your ramp. There are only a couple good hiding spots.
- Tech to marauders and bunker up, gg you crushed the roaches.
Why this works:
This build relies on the terran opponent essentially feeling comfortable and therefore greedy after his initial scouting and "safe" 2-rax opening. Rather than risk SCV loss or MULE loss, he builds up marines, or goes mech, or expands, or whatever he wants to do. This build prays on that false sense of security of the 2-rax opening by pitting an extremely aggressive roach attack during the timing window that the terran player is normally teching or expanding.
Initial scouting will reveal lots of drones and a pool, but no gas, no warren and no expansion. Terran (upon losing the scout), can either scan at 3:30 when OC completes, save energy and wait a bit, or scan at 5:00.
Replays:
 vs  (D) Michael vs ScoobZ ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) (win vs 2-rax aggression)
vs (P) Michael vs Doragon (win vs 2-rax no aggression)
(M) vs Jeby vs Michael (long game loss)
vs (D) Michael vs duster (later roaches and mutas due to poor macro, win)
(M) vs Trakky vs Michael (2-rax FE, roach/muta late, even after muta harass @12:20, loss)
vs (D) Michael vs Bloodbank (1-1-1, win)
vs Michael vs htok (double bunker ramp into 1-1-1, win)
I'll post more replays soon.
User-submitted replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
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You want to post this in SC2 strategy, not in the general forum.
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On February 22 2011 16:48 manicshock wrote:
You want to post this in SC2 strategy, not in the general forum.
yeah thanks, thought I did. my mistake!
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Can a Terran tell me when banshees or siege tanks come out?
And as follow up questions to OP. Why is this better than the 5rr? There you have 5roaches 16 speedlings and an expansion.
Second question: How many mutas pop out and when? I am actually thinking 7-8 and +1attack.
I can't watch the replay but I like to theorycraft about it while working.
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You're not going to hold off a 2rax with 4 zerglings, and if Terran scouts that you have no natural, he's not going to get greedy. Some more replays would be nice because the game you won was against an atrociously bad player who got supply blocked at 19 before he even started a depot.
EDIT: Guy you lost against wasn't much better. He misplaced his bunkers trying to wall you in, sent 1 marine (and didn't make more plus didn't make a depot), then lost the scvs, marine, and one of the bunkers without canceling it. Ugh.
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cool another roach rush. I'm guessing in the next month or so there will be a 13 roach rush. Can't wait to experience this in ladder
edit: oh nvm, this was designed for diamond levels lol. Just a question, is it right to teach people all these type of rushes to lower levels so that they can abuse them in ladder? Or would it be proper to encourage standard solid play?
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this will only work against terran with a really bad gamesense.
of course cheesy builds always somewhat rely on that, but any decent terran will scout that you are not expanding and will know that some sort of all-in is coming and bunker up and probably scan aswell to see what the hell the zerg is doing.
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If the roaches fail to do significant damage then the muta follow up is almost pointless. At the 10 min mark most terrans will have scanned your base at least once to see whats up not to mention they will have plenty of rines and most likely an engi bay already up or on the way.
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On February 22 2011 17:32 ShadowDrgn wrote:
You're not going to hold off a 2rax with 4 zerglings, and if Terran scouts that you have no natural, he's not going to get greedy. Some more replays would be nice because the game you won was against an atrociously bad player who got supply blocked at 19 before he even started a depot.
edit: I added a 3rd replay that I forgot about (the first game I tried this).
vs Michael vs ScoobZ (win vs 2-rax aggression)
No terran in his right mind is going to start making bunkers inside zerg's base if he hasn't expanded.
The greediest you'll get is bunkering the bottom (or top?) of the ramp, which will be crushed by roaches.
Roaches here come out in plenty of time to deal with pretty much all 2-rax aggression. The 4 zerglings are for scouting/delay.
The first roaches are out by 4:45-4:50, and if you are attacking at this time, you don't have more than 3-4 marines, which is far from enough to do any real damage to a queen and a couple lings.
In my experience, if ever there is no expansion, it's assumed there's some 1-base shenanigans going on, but the zerglings don't let you know this without burning a scan. If you push with your marines/scv, they will all die. If you don't push (what I'd recommend), then there's nothing to worry about on zerg's end.
But yeah I'll try and post more as soon as I can.
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To me this build just sounds like a late standard newbie's roach rush which will just get owned by either the opponent scouting the warren or roaches, or that since the zerg's on one base, some other all-in thing like banelings, and will build 2-3 bunkers and a bunch of ownage (be it marauders, banshees, marines+ups+medivac)
I might not be visualizing this right, but even 7RR can get scouted and quite easily kicked in the ass. Terran has comsat, and even without comsat they can see if you're not expanding unless they are bad.
While the muta transition is nice, it can't get many mutas out, and takes time to get, which offers the opportunity for a counter-attack before all or any mutas are ready, which will either damage you enough to keep the game even, or outright loose the game before you can even attack with them. Even without muchdamage dealt, the mutas will be scouted and can be easily dealt with.
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On February 22 2011 17:47 Xapti wrote:
To me this build just sounds like a late standard newbie's roach rush which will just get owned by either the opponent scouting the warren or roaches, or that since the zerg's on one base, some other all-in thing like banelings, and will build 2-3 bunkers and a bunch of ownage (be it marauders, banshees, marines+ups+medivac)
I might not be visualizing this right, but even 7RR can get scouted and quite easily kicked in the ass. Terran has comsat, and even without comsat they can see if you're not expanding unless they are bad.
While the muta transition is nice, it can't get many mutas out, and takes time to get, which offers the opportunity for a counter-attack before all or any mutas are ready, which will either damage you enough to keep the game even, or outright loose the game before you can even attack with them. Even without muchdamage dealt, the mutas will be scouted and can be easily dealt with.
Okay, well first, there's nothing to stop the terran from scanning zerg's base. However, there is a bit of higher-level decision-making that is required:
- Terran scouts with SCV, sees pool, lots of workers, no gas, maybe a queen and 2-4 lings, then it dies unless it left.
- At 3:30, Terran can do one of three things:
a) MULE calldown immediately (99% of the time that's what happens because the scouting SCV has JUST died)
b) Scan immediately (will reveal double gas and a warren)
c) Save energy and scan at 4:00-4:30 (will reveal double gas and warren as well as stockpiled larva.
- If the Terran chooses A, the only time he can now get information about what Z is doing is by doing one of the following two options:
a) 2-rax aggression, and all of the marines/scvs/bunkers will die for negative return in exchange.
b) scan at 5:00, revealing double gas, warren, slightly low drone count, and roaches in production/hatching.
However, given the information earned by the initial scouting, and being that 2-rax is generally an extremely safe opening, Terran can logically opt to be greedy and call down mules, as well as do whatever he does after 2-raxing.
This is completely different from 7RR, as the 7RR can easily be scouted by the initial SCV, allowing ample and easy counter. While this build is very beatable by simply scanning, most terrans won't bother to burn the scan that soon due to the sacrifice in economy, and this lower-level decision making (generally up to master league) is what this strat is centered around.
There is no opportunity whatsoever for a counter-attack, as the armies won't have finished trading until around 9 minutes. If the terran moves out, he loses all his SCVs. If he teched to mech and/or marauders, he dies, and if he just made a lot of marines or expanded or whatever, it goes to a standard game (since the next step is expanding).
After the roach exchange, if the terran doesn't die it's EXTREMELY unlikely that he's going to burn a scan on the zerg's main, especially if he's just lost some SCV's and let his macro slip during the battle.
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On February 22 2011 17:32 ShadowDrgn wrote:
You're not going to hold off a 2rax with 4 zerglings, and if Terran scouts that you have no natural, he's not going to get greedy. Some more replays would be nice because the game you won was against an atrociously bad player who got supply blocked at 19 before he even started a depot.
EDIT: Guy you lost against wasn't much better. He misplaced his bunkers trying to wall you in, sent 1 marine (and didn't make more plus didn't make a depot), then lost the scvs, marine, and one of the bunkers without canceling it. Ugh.
Click the name of the game he lost. That was against a 3100 masters player. I'm 100000% sure he's better than you. This build should be the standard for ZvT.
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added another replay against a mid-diamond player. In this case, he did scan and was adopting the appropriate counter (and my rush was about a minute late), but I was able to do enough economic damage with the roaches and force him to commit to a tech switch.
vs Michael vs duster (later roaches and mutas due to poor macro, win)
edit: here's another replay against master level 2-rax expand.
vs Trakky vs Michael (2-rax expand, roach/muta late, even after both exchanges, loss)
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Not so sure about this. The timing seems off. Doesn't the 2 rax timing get to your base at about 5 minutes? So by the time you build roaches, he's killed your lings and your queen, and built bunkers. :D
Also why not just grab drop and expo instead of mutas? 1 base muta is pretty much fail against everything. Might as well go get drop so you can burrow move around his base with elevator roaches for the novelty factor.
Don't take this comment to harshly or anything, the intent is to just point out some weaknesses.
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On February 23 2011 09:47 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Not so sure about this. The timing seems off. Doesn't the 2 rax timing get to your base at about 5 minutes? So by the time you build roaches, he's killed your lings and your queen, and built bunkers. :D
Also why not just grab drop and expo instead of mutas? 1 base muta is pretty much fail against everything. Might as well go get drop so you can burrow move around his base with elevator roaches for the novelty factor.
Don't take this comment to harshly or anything, the intent is to just point out some weaknesses.
at 5 minutes you already have 4 roaches out, and if he hits at 5 minutes, that means he left at 4:15-4:25, so he'll only have 4-5 marines at most. The delayed roach opener is really nothing special, and it's basically 100% safe against 2-rax aggression. You could definitely fit an expansion in there and only make 4-5 roaches, but I choose to go for double gas and use the hatch money on 6 more roaches, then attack.
The mutas are just to try and end the game if the roaches didn't work, but you could definitely expo and play standard.
The entire reason I worked on this build for refinement is to get some quick wins, because I found two builds that work well against Z and P up to master level but didn't have one for T, so I was averaging 3-4x game length against terran (and losing more). Since I play on 3 servers and practice with a group of mid-high master level guys, I'd rather try and ladder against similarly skilled players as quickly as possible.
This build is not designed to go more than 10 minutes because it attempts to end the game at 7:30 and at 10:00. If the T is pretty good, you're going to break even and have to play a normal game.
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On February 22 2011 17:29 Koshi wrote:
Can a Terran tell me when banshees or siege tanks come out?
And as follow up questions to OP. Why is this better than the 5rr? There you have 5roaches 16 speedlings and an expansion.
Second question: How many mutas pop out and when? I am actually thinking 7-8 and +1attack.
I can't watch the replay but I like to theorycraft about it while working.
Depending on how fast you go for it banshees can be out at ~6 min without significant eco loss. At this point you wont have cloak however. (Would have to go gas before rax for super early banshees)
I havent played against this but i somewhat doubt that this will kill a terran if he is not super greedy.
Yes 11 roaches are strong but if the terran has 2 filled bunkers or one with a tank behind it (doesnt need to have siege mode) iam pretty shure the rush will fail, especially if scvs are pulled for bunker repair. The mutas afterwards are going to be expected as pretty much every terran prepares for them at that time.
This is not a judgement though -i'll reserve that for the time after i have played against it- ,only what i expect to happen.
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Cheers for the build, I will try this out tonight (low plat), since the ling bling muta against terran was getting old.
Could I use the 11 roach opening, expand and switch to an infestor build? I tried a few times at following MrBitters skipping mutas for infestors but get owned early game. Or do you go mutas next to contain them if they have produced a lot of roach unfriendly units (like tanks or a lot of marauders)?
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On February 23 2011 10:29 zergrushkekeke wrote:
Cheers for the build, I will try this out tonight (low plat), since the ling bling muta against terran was getting old.
Could I use the 11 roach opening, expand and switch to an infestor build? I tried a few times at following MrBitters skipping mutas for infestors but get owned early game. Or do you go mutas next to contain them if they have produced a lot of roach unfriendly units (like tanks or a lot of marauders)?
The only reason to immediately switch to muta is to try and end the game.
You can definitely transition out immediately after sending the 11 roaches and just expand.
After you make 11 roaches, just pull 4-6 guys off gas and start droning up.
If you want to go all-in from the 11 roach mark, you can take 3 off gas (2 on one, 1 on the other) and then spam roaches, although I don't recommend it due to the travel distance.
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On February 23 2011 09:59 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 09:47 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Not so sure about this. The timing seems off. Doesn't the 2 rax timing get to your base at about 5 minutes? So by the time you build roaches, he's killed your lings and your queen, and built bunkers. :D
Also why not just grab drop and expo instead of mutas? 1 base muta is pretty much fail against everything. Might as well go get drop so you can burrow move around his base with elevator roaches for the novelty factor.
Don't take this comment to harshly or anything, the intent is to just point out some weaknesses. at 5 minutes you already have 4 roaches out, and if he hits at 5 minutes, that means he left at 4:15-4:25, so he'll only have 4-5 marines at most. The delayed roach opener is really nothing special, and it's basically 100% safe against 2-rax aggression. You could definitely fit an expansion in there and only make 4-5 roaches, but I choose to go for double gas and use the hatch money on 6 more roaches, then attack. The mutas are just to try and end the game if the roaches didn't work, but you could definitely expo and play standard. The entire reason I worked on this build for refinement is to get some quick wins, because I found two builds that work well against Z and P up to master level but didn't have one for T, so I was averaging 3-4x game length against terran (and losing more). Since I play on 3 servers and practice with a group of mid-high master level guys, I'd rather try and ladder against similarly skilled players as quickly as possible. This build is not designed to go more than 10 minutes because it attempts to end the game at 7:30 and at 10:00. If the T is pretty good, you're going to break even and have to play a normal game.
If that's the case then I'll keep it in mind if I ever switch to zerg. 
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Sounds interesting, I'll give it a shot on ladder and see how it goes
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On February 23 2011 16:32 Protonoid wrote:
Sounds interesting, I'll give it a shot on ladder and see how it goes
If you do please post a replay!
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ill be trying this as well once i get some time to play. cant wait lol
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added another replay:
vs (D) Michael vs Bloodbank (1-1-1, win)
Here the player went 1-1-1 marauder tank banshee. The initial roach push was marginally successful, and the mutas cleaned up.
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i watched one game on lt and it already shows that strategies with a fixed design are quite silly
the terran didnt scout properly and expected one base mutas and responded with marines and and an expansion and hand-delivered you victory; you then broke his wall and killed his army but stopped reinforcing and instead teched for mutas even when you knew that the terran has lots of rines
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I could see this working in the hands of WZP (the ultimate zerg cheeser)
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On February 23 2011 21:08 Alphasquad wrote:
i watched one game on lt and it already shows that strategies with a fixed design are quite silly
the terran didnt scout properly and expected one base mutas and responded with marines and and an expansion and hand-delivered you victory; you then broke his wall and killed his army but stopped reinforcing and instead teched for mutas even when you knew that the terran has lots of rines
I don't know if the blind roach commitment would have ended the game due to the travel distance, but it probably would have been close. I do a blind muta transition the moment I move out so that if the roach bust fails, I have a different tech that should require a different response that hits only 90 seconds after the first exchange.
The whole point of this build is to end the game as quickly as possible, and I feel that most of the time, if the initial 11 Roaches don't win, the mutas provide the best means to follow-up. And I have to make this decision as I leave my ramp, about 30 seconds before I engage. At that moment, there is no way to know whether I will break him or not, nor how he will respond (only marines? marauder/tank? etc).
I do think there's a good chance I could have won by going all-in on roaches in that game though.
Hi, thanks for posting the replays.
Game 1 (Scrap): Seems you went for a 12 gas and then did this off 1 gas. You ended up with 10 roaches instead of 11, and were very slightly late. Also, Scrap Station has a very long rush distance, which already gimps the rush from the start of the game. It looks like you arrived at about 7 minutes, but seemed to still work out in your favor.
Game 2 (Shak): You went for 12 gas again and hit with 10 later roaches again. Your attack didn't enter his base until about 8:05 since you went through the back door, and you didn't spot with your OL. Still, the 1-1-1 was eaten up by the mutas. Personally I would have gone for his workers and then defended the all-in, but you had the game won by that point anyway.
Game 3 (Shak): 12 gas, 10 late roach again. The roaches are slightly late but more or less on time. The big issue here is the lack of OL spotting which forces you into a bottleneck on the ramp. Your front roaches then take 100% of the fire from his marines, evening the fight considerably. At this point you are basically even, and I think the transition you did is absolutely fine if you want to play a normal game.
Thanks for submitting your replay!
Your roaches ended up a tad late due to slow injections/OL production, but due to the short attack path it didn't affect you too much. You broke in and KO'd him and I'd say outside of the mild macro slip before you pushed out, I think you executed this more or less perfectly. I'm glad it worked out for you!
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I don't feel like this can stand a chance vs transition into 4 rax stim all in. Not all terrans makes 2 rax. To check that with this build you need MEGA early scout and still the only indicator can be no gas ( good terrans sometimes even take gas or fake it). If you don't scout, you simply auto lose to any clock banshee openning since it comes allmost the same time you start hitting his base with your roaches. This might work versus stupid terran, no offence, but this is very depended on luck.
And if you start transitioning into expand after first 4 - 5 roaches, you are already behind...
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Out of curiosity, you say you should have around 30 mutas when you expand. Would it not be better to expand after around 24-25 drones, and simply accumulate larvae? You'll only experience a marginal return in mineral count, which would be made up by getting a faster expansion, no? It seems more economical to do so, and at the very least doesn't show your opponent you're on one base.
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Very nice post dude!
This build seems very well thought out, it actually made me want to play zerg for a second there ^^
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On February 24 2011 09:25 Zalias wrote:
I don't feel like this can stand a chance vs transition into 4 rax stim all in. Not all terrans makes 2 rax. To check that with this build you need MEGA early scout and still the only indicator can be no gas ( good terrans sometimes even take gas or fake it). If you don't scout, you simply auto lose to any clock banshee openning since it comes allmost the same time you start hitting his base with your roaches. This might work versus stupid terran, no offence, but this is very depended on luck.
And if you start transitioning into expand after first 4 - 5 roaches, you are already behind...
I don't think a 4-rax all-in would be a counter or even beat this build tbh, as the timings are too late and the roaches would have pushed out by the time they meat. If the scvs come you could just kite. I haven't faced this build once so I can't do more than speculate. I personally feel there's no reason to scout because I don't drone scout because I don't think there's anything the Terran can reasonably do that will outright beat this build in the first 3:30, and my lings can scout by 4:00.
As for the banshee, the only way a banshee can be finished by 6:30 WITH cloak is if he went 1-1-1 and didn't make any marines. When you scout the ramp with lings and don't see that Terran has anything, you just attack with every roach as it comes out, rather than wait for all 11. By the time his banshee has killed off your roaches, he'll already have lost most of his workers and a lot of his base, and by the time he gets to you, you have two queens, lair tech and can just trade 1 muta for overseer if he managed to finish cloak. Rushing banshee is not viable at all vs this.
The only luck involved is whether your opponent is skilled enough to know how to manage his command center energy and respond to what he sees if he scans. That's some higher level decision-making that most terran players below master league simply don't do.
On February 24 2011 09:29 FabledIntegral wrote:
Out of curiosity, you say you should have around 30 mutas when you expand. Would it not be better to expand after around 24-25 drones, and simply accumulate larvae? You'll only experience a marginal return in mineral count, which would be made up by getting a faster expansion, no? It seems more economical to do so, and at the very least doesn't show your opponent you're on one base.
The reason for 30 drones is because there is larva there to support it getting 30 drones just before you pop your 5 mutas (the most you can make off 2 gas in this transition). I do see your point and I think an expansion should probably be dropped as soon as the spire goes down. I usually don't think about expanding because I'm just trying to end the game, but there really is no reason not to expand at this point, and given that the spire and hatch both have 100 second build times, a 2-base muta follow-up or any number of other options is surely feasible.
Thanks for pointing this out.
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Thanks for the tips. my usual build build vs P is 13 pool 12 gas so it is a hard habit to break. I will have to watch some replays and try this again.
I must admit it feels limiting to pool so much larva at the start, since if it was spent the hatch would create a few more units worth of larva. Would it be possible to pool larva in this way (maybe the send and third vomits) to get mass hydras vs protoss? The only thing I see on ladders is 4 gates still so i guess it would only work if the timing fits.
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On February 24 2011 10:39 zergrushkekeke wrote:
Thanks for the tips. my usual build build vs P is 13 pool 12 gas so it is a hard habit to break. I will have to watch some replays and try this again.
I must admit it feels limiting to pool so much larva at the start, since if it was spent the hatch would create a few more units worth of larva. Would it be possible to pool larva in this way (maybe the send and third vomits) to get mass hydras vs protoss? The only thing I see on ladders is 4 gates still so i guess it would only work if the timing fits.
Well, if you pool larva the way I do in this build, you only lose 1 larva from sub-3 regeneration. You don't need to pop 11 at once, but all 11 should be done by about 5:50 so you can push out. If you want to hit earlier and with fewer roaches, you certainly can.
I haven't looked into doing any kind of hydra rush build vs protoss, but you can mess around with CarbonTwelve's SCBuildOrder program and try it out.
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Well i just watched the replay i posted and the guy supply blocked himself plenty, more marines in the bunkers may have made it tougher, or a bunker at his wall in with rines and scvs repairing...
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I now hope this becomes standard zerg play in every ZvT, so that I can crush it with safe play.
In all seriousness, I can't see this working at all against a FE that bunkers up, and unless you scout hatch first, I think any Terran is going to throw up at least a bunker or two, and likely more when they see no expo.
The mutalisk followup could pose a problem, but as long as the T saves even half their scv's, they should at the very least come out even.
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Pretty sure it would eat a fast expand. You wouldn't get enough gas to get the scary marauders, with 11 roaches bunkers do disappear pretty fast.
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After trying this a few more times and getting owned (fast 3 rax pushes, fast bunker with 1 marauder) I have given it up for a bit, I think it is too easy for a terran to snipe your overlord and abuse the ramp, get a few marauders, or push before your roaches even pop out.
I've had more luck going back to FE, spines and banes, the early game fight is all defending rine - hellion - banshee harass but it feels stronger compared to basing the whole success of your game on an earlyish push that still has to bust the ramp of a terran.
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wouldn't your non-existent expansion hint the terran into getting up a bunch of bunkers?
edit: nvm, i underestimate the power of 11 roaches.
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I like this build. It allows you to push hard early while the double gas gives you the flexibility to transition to other units hence increasing the rate at which you can adapt to your opponents playstyle.
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As op said this can only work on really bad terrans. Easy to bunker rinse at ramp, get 4 rax , cc, and fact, and just Maynard when it's safe, and put rines in mineral lines until turrets. Then u have double the bases of Zerg and u win.
Offensive roach rushes and one base muta are just low lvl cheese which is why ud see six pool or drone rush b4 ud ever see this in a tournament.
All this nonsense about players with marauders and banshee is just silly. Theres a reason marine tank is standard TvZ. Defensively solid and offensively scary. No reason to deviate.
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Maybe a 1 base zerg verse protoss is an auto loss... but vs zerg its practically standard and I am still beating lots of protoss with a rush.
This does come out way late in terms of cheesey builds. There are still times when it wins and any well executed build compared to a sloppy "don't know what I am doing" terran will always do well. So if you remember your goals are you will still do well, goals being
1: "get lots of roaches, do damage and remove lots of marines form their base"
2: "get a handful of mutas quickly, do damage and contain the terran to 1 or 2 bases while saturating yours"
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this strategy is really stupid. i can open up CC first and be able to defend against all types of rushes. my CC is part of my wall in and you cannot baneling bust it or roach rush it. my marauders does come out in time + bunkers.
whenever you don't get hatch by 18 supply -20, i know you will all in its so easy to scout it.
im high level 3200+ masters btw who stopped laddering because all the zergs were too easy to beat..
how about someone go challenge this guide maker that its auto loss because i can go 13 CC/13 rax(my most common build i use in all my tvz) and be able to wall off a 6 pool in time and defend against baneling/roach busts @ 6 minute mark.
its guides like these make me cringe..
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On February 23 2011 18:47 michaelhasanalias wrote:added another replay: vs (D) Michael vs Bloodbank (1-1-1, win) Here the player went 1-1-1 marauder tank banshee. The initial roach push was marginally successful, and the mutas cleaned up.
You need to find a better example of this working against 1-1-1. I stopped watching the replay around the 9 minute mark because the terran guy supply blocked himself for over a minute. Not to mention he had around 30 average APM. It was purely his mechanics that lost him the game, regardless of any build order that happened to be thrown at him. It would be impressive if this worked against a 1-1-1 banshee build. If you can supply a better replay of this working against it that would be most impressive.
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On February 28 2011 17:03 Spiner wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 18:47 michaelhasanalias wrote:added another replay: vs (D) Michael vs Bloodbank (1-1-1, win) Here the player went 1-1-1 marauder tank banshee. The initial roach push was marginally successful, and the mutas cleaned up. You need to find a better example of this working against 1-1-1. I stopped watching the replay around the 9 minute mark because the terran guy supply blocked himself for over a minute. Not to mention he had around 30 average APM. It was purely his mechanics that lost him the game, regardless of any build order that happened to be thrown at him. It would be impressive if this worked against a 1-1-1 banshee build. If you can supply a better replay of this working against it that would be most impressive.
Of course this works against 1-1-1 banshee. The roaches would hit at 6 minutes, before the fastest, least economical banshee is out. If it's a standard banshee timing off 1-1-1, then he'll lose his base and most of his workers by the time he has a banshee out.
The point of this build is to beat a mid-diamond player executing 2-rax into anything but hard marauders (who does that?).
On February 28 2011 16:34 getpicture wrote:
this strategy is really stupid. i can open up CC first and be able to defend against all types of rushes. my CC is part of my wall in and you cannot baneling bust it or roach rush it. my marauders does come out in time + bunkers.
whenever you don't get hatch by 18 supply -20, i know you will all in its so easy to scout it.
im high level 3200+ masters btw who stopped laddering because all the zergs were too easy to beat..
how about someone go challenge this guide maker that its auto loss because i can go 13 CC/13 rax(my most common build i use in all my tvz) and be able to wall off a 6 pool in time and defend against baneling/roach busts @ 6 minute mark.
its guides like these make me cringe..
congrats, you didn't read my OP and posted some ignorant comment. This cheese is for beating mid-diamond players. Naturally at 3200 master you don't exactly fit the profile. I'm glad you're competent enough to realize what's up and defend it.
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roflling at this strategy... Which kindof player doesn't scout???
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On February 28 2011 20:27 Pestilence wrote:
roflling at this strategy... Which kindof player doesn't scout???
The OP details exactly how this fits into scouting, you have to blow a scan to see this coming in because if the delayed roach warren. Sure you don't see a hatch and think allin, but what is it? a baneling, muta or roach all in? Maybe just a hatch not at the zergs natural.
To getpicture who opens with a 13 CC in their wall off? i have never seen this so is must be some mystical high level masters build. This build works as the OP said it does, if the terran blindly goes 2 rax pressure into mech, or into banshee. The roaches eat the marines and then do damage.
I played it twice last night and won 1 against a terran going for mass hellions ( i hit him as he was leaving his base) and lost against a thor rush (thor popped out after i killed off the marines bunkers and sim city at the ramp).
It is pretty stupid when people are saying it is an auto lose while the people testing it are winning half the time, are terran players so bad that they will lose a build order loss game half the time?
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On February 28 2011 16:34 getpicture wrote:
this strategy is really stupid. i can open up CC first and be able to defend against all types of rushes. my CC is part of my wall in and you cannot baneling bust it or roach rush it. my marauders does come out in time + bunkers.
whenever you don't get hatch by 18 supply -20, i know you will all in its so easy to scout it.
im high level 3200+ masters btw who stopped laddering because all the zergs were too easy to beat..
how about someone go challenge this guide maker that its auto loss because i can go 13 CC/13 rax(my most common build i use in all my tvz) and be able to wall off a 6 pool in time and defend against baneling/roach busts @ 6 minute mark.
its guides like these make me cringe..
you are funny.
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what does dropping and cancelling a hatch do to this build?
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On March 01 2011 11:14 photomuse wrote:
what does dropping and cancelling a hatch do to this build?
I think you could afford to do this and not affect your roach timing at all, so perhaps it is viable. I haven't tried it but I'm pretty sure you could do this. It would have to be something like a 19 or 20 hatch. It's a good idea.
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hmm... In most cases I'd assume the game goes something like this:
Terran scouts you're not opening speedling and goes down with 1-3 marines and 2 scvs and starts making bunkers, normally 2 at the bottom of the ramp. When that doesnt get blocked (which is impossible to block with 4 lings), he'll slowly start poking up into the main with marines. Most likely kill every ling you have and you lose straight up if you only make 4 lings. However, at the minimum, he will see the roach warren and A) just fucking kill you there and then. or B) cancel and salvage all forward bunker, retreat and bunker up the main... In either scenario I see no chance of this working.
Basically gambles that the guy is not actually going to be aggressive or scout at all.
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On March 02 2011 21:59 asmo.0 wrote:
hmm... In most cases I'd assume the game goes something like this:
Terran scouts you're not opening speedling and goes down with 1-3 marines and 2 scvs and starts making bunkers, normally 2 at the bottom of the ramp. When that doesnt get blocked (which is impossible to block with 4 lings), he'll slowly start poking up into the main with marines. Most likely kill every ling you have and you lose straight up if you only make 4 lings. However, at the minimum, he will see the roach warren and A) just fucking kill you there and then. or B) cancel and salvage all forward bunker, retreat and bunker up the main... In either scenario I see no chance of this working.
Basically gambles that the guy is not actually going to be aggressive or scout at all.
This has already been discussed.
Nothing you said is going to work. This build has a number of weaknesses, but everything you just mentioned, if you tried vs this build, would only increase your likelihood for loss, as everything you put forward is going to die.
Those bunker contains only work against ling aggression or when someone FE's and you bunker to keep him out. Any roach opening is going to crush 2-rax aggression.
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Hi, I was watching a stream today and someone did a 11RR against a protoss forge FE (crushed it), so I've been practicing your build order a bit today. My question is how does this timing work out vs standard early agression from P & T? I mean, do you have to go and check that they aren't cheesing you, or do you get the roaches fast enough to deal with anything you find anyway?
Also, every time I try this I end up with 10 roaches, not 11. I'm gonna watch your replays, but do you know why this happens? I noticed that your build order doesn't make sense at one point because it says 13 pool, 3 drones, 16 overlord, but you lose 1 supply making the spawning pool, is this the problem?
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Mid diamond terran here, I can see it working some of the time, but most likely if I don't see a hatch first I assume early aggression from the zerg and react accordingly - starting with followup scouting if my original SCV got picked off.
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From watching your replay i discovered that you actually make 4 drones at that point, not 3. Also, you popped your Roaches in a stagger so you could get an extra larva I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.
@ wulf & others: No strat is perfect, but changes in popular play styles make some openings more successful than others as things change. The reality is you kill the scout with lings, so he doesn't KNOW you're coming with a lot of Roaches. Anyway, you don't HAVE to go all in with Roaches and Mutas, once you have contained the P or T to one base you can expand and do whatever you want. I'm looking at this as a standard opener because the new maps are bigger and more often have multiple spawning positions (making 7RR unusable for most), however I think that it is still important for Z to threaten early in order to contain to one base early in the game.
I still wanna know how this timing works out vs other early agression times like 4gate/halion drops etc etc..... even though that 2 rax push looks pretty fast.
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I don't think you understand how paranoid I am of baneling busts, if I didn't get a chance to scout that hatchery I will do everything in my power to either get a scout in his base or scan. Now that doesn't mean I'm a typical mid-diamond terran but I would hope that others have been burned by one base zerg play enough to learn as well.
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On March 08 2011 07:05 Wulf_Ector wrote:
I don't think you understand how paranoid I am of baneling busts, if I didn't get a chance to scout that hatchery I will do everything in my power to either get a scout in his base or scan. Now that doesn't mean I'm a typical mid-diamond terran but I would hope that others have been burned by one base zerg play enough to learn as well.
Just consider the build from a Zerg perspective. Right now every Z is tearing their hair out because P & T are coming with early aggression almost every game before Z can get their economy up. Using this build the only 2 scenarios are
1) Z makes fast Roaches - P/T is untouchable on one well defended base. Z expands and keeps the Roaches. Good scenario.
2) Z makes fast Roaches - P/T has expanded and they have few units and all their buildings are spread out. Z crushes expo, potentially wins the game right here. Even if Z crushes expo and P/T defends, Z has expo and P/T is making a lot of units because he doesn't know if the next attack is coming or not.
Edit: oh the other scenario is P/T come with early agression, but this is why the OP originally started using this in the first place. My question is if there could be early agression before the Roaches have popped.
The only danger I see with getting fast Roaches is if they get completly owned and then P/T counter attacks, so you just have to be careful with them. I mean T can go 100% marauder, but if Z has just made tons of speedlings they are gonna get owned IMO.
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added a new replay:
vs Michael vs htok (double bunker ramp into 1-1-1, win)
On March 08 2011 06:17 deathly rat wrote:
Hi, I was watching a stream today and someone did a 11RR against a protoss forge FE (crushed it), so I've been practicing your build order a bit today. My question is how does this timing work out vs standard early agression from P & T? I mean, do you have to go and check that they aren't cheesing you, or do you get the roaches fast enough to deal with anything you find anyway?
Also, every time I try this I end up with 10 roaches, not 11. I'm gonna watch your replays, but do you know why this happens? I noticed that your build order doesn't make sense at one point because it says 13 pool, 3 drones, 16 overlord, but you lose 1 supply making the spawning pool, is this the problem?
I don't know that I'd recommend this build vs a forge FE. I think if you saw that, just make a warren as soon as possible and spam roaches ad infinitum (if you scout early enough).
Vs Terran, there really isn't anything he can do as far as aggression, even in close positions. Your 4 lings + queen + your initial creep is going to prevent him from doing much more than bunkering your ramp, and even if he does that, it's not going to slow your roaches down, but it is going to slow his tech/army production down by everything he invested in that block.
There are a couple replays with players doing early 2-rax aggression and just general timing stuff, but in order for anything to get to YOUR base in the first 5 minutes, it needs to be leaving his by about 4:20-30, and there isn't a lot he can have at that time, and certainly not enough to overcome 4 lings and a queen.
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Hi, i've been practicing this build quite a lot vs computer and I have adjusted the build very slightly so that I can get 11 Roaches every time with very low minerals and gas. Basically I was getting gas blocked so just get both gas on 21 and then a drone, then back to roach warren etc.
10 Extractor Trick Drone
11 Overlord
(Drone x2)
13 Spawning Pool
(Drone x4)
16 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zergling 2x2
(Drone x1)
21 Extractor x2 (6 on gas immediately)
(Drone x1)
20 Roach Warren (immediately after gas)
19 Overlord x2
19 Roach x11 (Finish at ~5:45-6:00)
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On March 11 2011 04:56 deathly rat wrote:
Hi, i've been practicing this build quite a lot vs computer and I have adjusted the build very slightly so that I can get 11 Roaches every time with very low minerals and gas. Basically I was getting gas blocked so just get both gas on 21 and then a drone, then back to roach warren etc.
10 Extractor Trick Drone
11 Overlord
(Drone x2)
13 Spawning Pool
(Drone x4)
16 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zergling 2x2
(Drone x1)
21 Extractor x2 (6 on gas immediately)
(Drone x1)
20 Roach Warren (immediately after gas)
19 Overlord x2
19 Roach x11 (Finish at ~5:45-6:00)
If you wouldn't mind posting a replay, I'd be happy to share it in the OP.
I think getting gas a smidge earlier if your timings aren't great would be a good idea. Sometimes my pool can be up to 8-10 seconds late if I don't properly micro my drones in the opening minute or so, and it does mess up the gas timing.
Lately I've been experimenting with a different roach pressure build vs. Terran (and with higher success), but I would be glad to still update this with better information if such information is available.
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Click the name of the game he lost. That was against a 3100 masters player. I'm 100000% sure he's better than you. This build should be the standard for ZvT.
Bad logic... just because it worked that one time against a 3100 masters player, it does not mean it will "work" against anyone lower than that level.
I also would like to ask: how do you stop a 2 rax? Not a 2 rax transition into FE or such like you described which the 11 roaches will counter, but if he goes 2 rax and just keeps getting more rax, how will you have enough larvae to deal with 2 rax or even a SCV all-in?
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There seems to be a lot of scared terrans here. Trying to do all they can to bash the build.
I haven't tried this, and Im not sure I will, but the concept seems pretty similar to terrans blue flame hellion into banshee build witch also is one base for a long time. It has to do some damage, but it doesnt need to end the game there and then. It will most likely throw the opponent of his game..
I often expand to my third first, to fake a one base play when I see 2 rax openings, and throw the opponent off. Because of speedlings the extra distance doesnt really matter that much early game against a 2 rax if it gets scouted. It might not be the best idea to do a huge drone transfer because of the distance though. If scouted its either an all-in attempt or t just expands, in witch case it lines up good with an early third at natural.
Point is, I think it can be good to mix up the play, and not be so obvious and standard about everything
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On March 13 2011 15:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +Click the name of the game he lost. That was against a 3100 masters player. I'm 100000% sure he's better than you. This build should be the standard for ZvT. Bad logic... just because it worked that one time against a 3100 masters player, it does not mean it will "work" against anyone lower than that level. I also would like to ask: how do you stop a 2 rax? Not a 2 rax transition into FE or such like you described which the 11 roaches will counter, but if he goes 2 rax and just keeps getting more rax, how will you have enough larvae to deal with 2 rax or even a SCV all-in?
That guy was off-racing, but he's still a good player. His 2-rax aggression wasn't so great, but the concept is the same.
If someone 2-raxes and just pumps marines and aggresses, everything he sends is going to die. There's no kiting a wall of roaches or salvaging it. Either you cut and run, or everything dies to superior forces.
Larva production is only an issue if you're spamming lings. 2-rax is VERY powerful against FE + speedling openers, which is the most common early game in zvt right now and has been for a while.
But roaches are much more larva efficient, and the production is not a problem. It's not uncommon for someone stockpiling larva to surge ahead by as much as 10-15 food very briefly.
SCV all-in simply wouldn't be a problem at all. It doesn't matter what he sends, it's going to fail against roaches on creep that can kite. You can't beat something that's a hard counter to your army composition, and even though marines beat roaches at cost for higher numbers of marines, you can't achieve those numbers in the opening few minutes of the game.
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EPT
