EPT[G] ZvT: 11RR to 1-Base Muta (2-rax counter) - Page 3
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dehdar
170 Posts
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Shamaya
Japan65 Posts
Offensive roach rushes and one base muta are just low lvl cheese which is why ud see six pool or drone rush b4 ud ever see this in a tournament. All this nonsense about players with marauders and banshee is just silly. Theres a reason marine tank is standard TvZ. Defensively solid and offensively scary. No reason to deviate. | ||
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
This does come out way late in terms of cheesey builds. There are still times when it wins and any well executed build compared to a sloppy "don't know what I am doing" terran will always do well. So if you remember your goals are you will still do well, goals being 1: "get lots of roaches, do damage and remove lots of marines form their base" 2: "get a handful of mutas quickly, do damage and contain the terran to 1 or 2 bases while saturating yours" | ||
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getpicture
141 Posts
whenever you don't get hatch by 18 supply -20, i know you will all in its so easy to scout it. im high level 3200+ masters btw who stopped laddering because all the zergs were too easy to beat.. how about someone go challenge this guide maker that its auto loss because i can go 13 CC/13 rax(my most common build i use in all my tvz) and be able to wall off a 6 pool in time and defend against baneling/roach busts @ 6 minute mark. its guides like these make me cringe.. | ||
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Spiner
United States360 Posts
On February 23 2011 18:47 michaelhasanalias wrote: added another replay:  vs  (D) Michael vs Bloodbank ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) (1-1-1, win)Here the player went 1-1-1 marauder tank banshee. The initial roach push was marginally successful, and the mutas cleaned up. You need to find a better example of this working against 1-1-1. I stopped watching the replay around the 9 minute mark because the terran guy supply blocked himself for over a minute. Not to mention he had around 30 average APM. It was purely his mechanics that lost him the game, regardless of any build order that happened to be thrown at him. It would be impressive if this worked against a 1-1-1 banshee build. If you can supply a better replay of this working against it that would be most impressive. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On February 28 2011 17:03 Spiner wrote: You need to find a better example of this working against 1-1-1. I stopped watching the replay around the 9 minute mark because the terran guy supply blocked himself for over a minute. Not to mention he had around 30 average APM. It was purely his mechanics that lost him the game, regardless of any build order that happened to be thrown at him. It would be impressive if this worked against a 1-1-1 banshee build. If you can supply a better replay of this working against it that would be most impressive. Of course this works against 1-1-1 banshee. The roaches would hit at 6 minutes, before the fastest, least economical banshee is out. If it's a standard banshee timing off 1-1-1, then he'll lose his base and most of his workers by the time he has a banshee out. The point of this build is to beat a mid-diamond player executing 2-rax into anything but hard marauders (who does that?). On February 28 2011 16:34 getpicture wrote: this strategy is really stupid. i can open up CC first and be able to defend against all types of rushes. my CC is part of my wall in and you cannot baneling bust it or roach rush it. my marauders does come out in time + bunkers. whenever you don't get hatch by 18 supply -20, i know you will all in its so easy to scout it. im high level 3200+ masters btw who stopped laddering because all the zergs were too easy to beat.. how about someone go challenge this guide maker that its auto loss because i can go 13 CC/13 rax(my most common build i use in all my tvz) and be able to wall off a 6 pool in time and defend against baneling/roach busts @ 6 minute mark. its guides like these make me cringe.. congrats, you didn't read my OP and posted some ignorant comment. This cheese is for beating mid-diamond players. Naturally at 3200 master you don't exactly fit the profile. I'm glad you're competent enough to realize what's up and defend it. | ||
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Pestilence
Belgium41 Posts
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
On February 28 2011 20:27 Pestilence wrote: roflling at this strategy... Which kindof player doesn't scout??? The OP details exactly how this fits into scouting, you have to blow a scan to see this coming in because if the delayed roach warren. Sure you don't see a hatch and think allin, but what is it? a baneling, muta or roach all in? Maybe just a hatch not at the zergs natural. To getpicture who opens with a 13 CC in their wall off? i have never seen this so is must be some mystical high level masters build. This build works as the OP said it does, if the terran blindly goes 2 rax pressure into mech, or into banshee. The roaches eat the marines and then do damage. I played it twice last night and won 1 against a terran going for mass hellions ( i hit him as he was leaving his base) and lost against a thor rush (thor popped out after i killed off the marines bunkers and sim city at the ramp). It is pretty stupid when people are saying it is an auto lose while the people testing it are winning half the time, are terran players so bad that they will lose a build order loss game half the time? | ||
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 28 2011 16:34 getpicture wrote: this strategy is really stupid. i can open up CC first and be able to defend against all types of rushes. my CC is part of my wall in and you cannot baneling bust it or roach rush it. my marauders does come out in time + bunkers. whenever you don't get hatch by 18 supply -20, i know you will all in its so easy to scout it. im high level 3200+ masters btw who stopped laddering because all the zergs were too easy to beat.. how about someone go challenge this guide maker that its auto loss because i can go 13 CC/13 rax(my most common build i use in all my tvz) and be able to wall off a 6 pool in time and defend against baneling/roach busts @ 6 minute mark. its guides like these make me cringe.. you are funny. | ||
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photomuse
United States102 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 01 2011 11:14 photomuse wrote: what does dropping and cancelling a hatch do to this build? I think you could afford to do this and not affect your roach timing at all, so perhaps it is viable. I haven't tried it but I'm pretty sure you could do this. It would have to be something like a 19 or 20 hatch. It's a good idea. | ||
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asmo.0
Norway318 Posts
Terran scouts you're not opening speedling and goes down with 1-3 marines and 2 scvs and starts making bunkers, normally 2 at the bottom of the ramp. When that doesnt get blocked (which is impossible to block with 4 lings), he'll slowly start poking up into the main with marines. Most likely kill every ling you have and you lose straight up if you only make 4 lings. However, at the minimum, he will see the roach warren and A) just fucking kill you there and then. or B) cancel and salvage all forward bunker, retreat and bunker up the main... In either scenario I see no chance of this working. Basically gambles that the guy is not actually going to be aggressive or scout at all. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 02 2011 21:59 asmo.0 wrote: hmm... In most cases I'd assume the game goes something like this: Terran scouts you're not opening speedling and goes down with 1-3 marines and 2 scvs and starts making bunkers, normally 2 at the bottom of the ramp. When that doesnt get blocked (which is impossible to block with 4 lings), he'll slowly start poking up into the main with marines. Most likely kill every ling you have and you lose straight up if you only make 4 lings. However, at the minimum, he will see the roach warren and A) just fucking kill you there and then. or B) cancel and salvage all forward bunker, retreat and bunker up the main... In either scenario I see no chance of this working. Basically gambles that the guy is not actually going to be aggressive or scout at all. This has already been discussed. Nothing you said is going to work. This build has a number of weaknesses, but everything you just mentioned, if you tried vs this build, would only increase your likelihood for loss, as everything you put forward is going to die. Those bunker contains only work against ling aggression or when someone FE's and you bunker to keep him out. Any roach opening is going to crush 2-rax aggression. | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
Also, every time I try this I end up with 10 roaches, not 11. I'm gonna watch your replays, but do you know why this happens? I noticed that your build order doesn't make sense at one point because it says 13 pool, 3 drones, 16 overlord, but you lose 1 supply making the spawning pool, is this the problem? | ||
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Wulf_Ector
Canada37 Posts
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
@ wulf & others: No strat is perfect, but changes in popular play styles make some openings more successful than others as things change. The reality is you kill the scout with lings, so he doesn't KNOW you're coming with a lot of Roaches. Anyway, you don't HAVE to go all in with Roaches and Mutas, once you have contained the P or T to one base you can expand and do whatever you want. I'm looking at this as a standard opener because the new maps are bigger and more often have multiple spawning positions (making 7RR unusable for most), however I think that it is still important for Z to threaten early in order to contain to one base early in the game. I still wanna know how this timing works out vs other early agression times like 4gate/halion drops etc etc..... even though that 2 rax push looks pretty fast. | ||
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Wulf_Ector
Canada37 Posts
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
On March 08 2011 07:05 Wulf_Ector wrote: I don't think you understand how paranoid I am of baneling busts, if I didn't get a chance to scout that hatchery I will do everything in my power to either get a scout in his base or scan. Now that doesn't mean I'm a typical mid-diamond terran but I would hope that others have been burned by one base zerg play enough to learn as well. Just consider the build from a Zerg perspective. Right now every Z is tearing their hair out because P & T are coming with early aggression almost every game before Z can get their economy up. Using this build the only 2 scenarios are 1) Z makes fast Roaches - P/T is untouchable on one well defended base. Z expands and keeps the Roaches. Good scenario. 2) Z makes fast Roaches - P/T has expanded and they have few units and all their buildings are spread out. Z crushes expo, potentially wins the game right here. Even if Z crushes expo and P/T defends, Z has expo and P/T is making a lot of units because he doesn't know if the next attack is coming or not. Edit: oh the other scenario is P/T come with early agression, but this is why the OP originally started using this in the first place. My question is if there could be early agression before the Roaches have popped. The only danger I see with getting fast Roaches is if they get completly owned and then P/T counter attacks, so you just have to be careful with them. I mean T can go 100% marauder, but if Z has just made tons of speedlings they are gonna get owned IMO. | ||
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