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So my problem right now in zerg versus protoss is when they pressure you early with air and gain map control. The natural response to this is to make a few hydras so that you can actually move outside your base. At this point a protoss will have their expansion up and start going for colossi after their initial voidrays (and perhaps a pheonix to help lift queens).
I have found no efficient way to fight colossi & voidray, supported by gateway units obviously, without getting completely blown to pieces.
The best combination so far that has managed to put up somewhat of a fight is roach/corruptor supported by a few hydras (build too many and the colossi will eat through your army in a matter of seconds). However it's not enough as no game that reaches this point has ended in my favour.
Dear zerg users, and any protoss players that want to help the enemy, what's your response to this unit combination?
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In both cases, wether you're going muta/ling/bling och roach/hydra/corruter I can recommend adding a few (3-8) queens for transfuses on mutas/corrupters and general air dmg to collosi/voidrays (yes, they do ther air atk vs collosi). Queens also absorb a lot of damage if you put them up front.
Oh, and for those who take rank as a reference, was ranked 88 om top 200 EU.
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Colossus/Void Ray is a tough composition to deal with, and storm can make it even more difficult.
Honestly, I think that the best bet is to not let Protoss get to that point. Void Rays and Colossus are extremely expensive and take awhile to get into a decent number. Deny expansions and starve your opponent.
I play Protoss, and the best way to beat Zerg is to expand expand expand. If I'm kept on 2 bases to their 3+ there is no way I can make an invincible VR/Colossus ball.
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Its tough, hardest build I know of right now in ZvP. I think its best to go for a quick drop with hydra (trying ot hit before he gets too many colsi with range upgrade). If you cant hit before he gets colsi going then corrupter (vs phoenixs and colsi) or muta (vs voidrays) or a mixture, with speed roaches and lings to kill the warpgate stuff.
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What you should do is get hydras out and push right away with hydras and roaches. Almost all of the money has been going to the voids so the ground army won't be strong. There's a fairly large timing window before the protoss has collossus. Just push right away, and that usually wins it for me.
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I'd first do a search, there have been threads about this protoss composition wrecking Zerg...
I'll also direct you to Mr.Bitter's stream and his 12 weeks with the pros VODs. You can watch iNcontroL coaching Mr.Bitter on that exact unit composition in this video.
http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4630654/
Hope it helps.
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from my experience you cant beat a 200/200 protoss army straight up, you need to have many larvae saved up and a good economy so you can throw your army at his and rebuild instantly then crush it the second fight.
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On January 21 2011 07:48 UniQ.eu wrote:
In both cases, wether you're going muta/ling/bling och roach/hydra/corruter I can recommend adding a few (3-8) queens for transfuses on mutas/corrupters and general air dmg to collosi/voidrays (yes, they do ther air atk vs collosi). Queens also absorb a lot of damage if you put them up front.
Oh, and for those who take rank as a reference, was ranked 88 om top 200 EU.
Thanks, I havn't really had that many queens in my army composition up to this point. Will definately try that out.
Honestly, I think that the best bet is to not let Protoss get to that point.
Obviously this is my goal in all the games. It's not always you manage to do this however, and I want to be able to continue the game after that point ;P
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Uh, mass Mutas. They'll be using a lot of gas too so you'll definitely have enough. Remember Colossi can't shoot up and it's not like they can adapt nearly as easily as they can say, with their Gateway units in response to the basic Zerg ground units. They mass enough voids somehow so that your mutas can't deal with them? Counter attack with zerglings and buy time to build up enough Mutas.
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I've never actually had to go against this composition that often. If you keep pressuring the toss, they have to build a lot of gateway units. When you max out, they should be around 170-180 supply, with a handful of Colossi and a lot of gateway units. If he ever tries to skimp on the gateway units, then you can just charge his base and kill him. After that, you keep up constant pressure, and never let him have enough time to build up Void Rays and Colossi, both of which require a lot of time and resources to mass up. They shouldn't have enough supply and resources to get sufficient number of both of them, and just standard Roach/Hydra Corruptor should be enough.
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corrupter counters void ray and coll rather well and gives you an opening to get lords.
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On January 21 2011 08:20 charlie420247 wrote:
corrupter counters void ray and coll rather well and gives you an opening to get lords.
I really don't agree with this. In my experience, void rays completely wrecks corrupters. As others have said, I'd say try not to let them get to that stage. If they're mostly making voids and colos it'll be hard for them to get a third base, and without a third, they won't reach critical mass (not untill you have a big enough macro lead to just kill him with whatever unit comp you wish). Else, in theory, mass mutas should stand a good chance, that's untill they realize it and go phoenix instead of void.
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On January 21 2011 08:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Uh, mass Mutas. They'll be using a lot of gas too so you'll definitely have enough. Remember Colossi can't shoot up and it's not like they can adapt nearly as easily as they can say, with their Gateway units in response to the basic Zerg ground units. They mass enough voids somehow so that your mutas can't deal with them? Counter attack with zerglings and buy time to build up enough Mutas.
5-6 voidrays and stalkers rip through mutas quite easily. Zerglings melt away instantly to the colossi so in a head on battle(which the protoss will force sooner or later) that doesn't really work too well in my experience
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get a base up from him and mass corrupters and upgraded roaches. Use roaches to tank damage from corrupters and aim down the collosi, then voidray. if his stalkers and shooting your corrupters he should be running his collosi back so your roaches destroy the rest of his army.
Oh corrupters counter voidrays if they dont have charge, and with charge they wont ahve enough voidrays to kill your corrupters if they are spending it on collosi/sentry/stalker.
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On January 21 2011 08:20 charlie420247 wrote:
corrupter counters void ray and coll rather well and gives you an opening to get lords.
corruptors do not ""counter"" voidrays.
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I've played against this build once and I beat it.. My opponent wasn't the best ever but I'm sure this will give you an idea of how to beat this composition
Basically you want to get mutalisks but you don't want to reveal them if possible. Get lots of air upgrades and just mass mutalisks/corruptors with some roaches. Once you trade armies just reinforce with mass roach and kill him
Heres the game that I had (you might want to fast forward a bit because the beginning part is just a bunch of turtling).. With speed voids no long being available I dont think hatchery sniping with mass void rays will be very effective anymore.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/128868-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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On January 21 2011 09:10 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 08:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Uh, mass Mutas. They'll be using a lot of gas too so you'll definitely have enough. Remember Colossi can't shoot up and it's not like they can adapt nearly as easily as they can say, with their Gateway units in response to the basic Zerg ground units. They mass enough voids somehow so that your mutas can't deal with them? Counter attack with zerglings and buy time to build up enough Mutas. 5-6 voidrays and stalkers rip through mutas quite easily. Zerglings melt away instantly to the colossi so in a head on battle(which the protoss will force sooner or later) that doesn't really work too well in my experience
if the toss has 5 voidrays AND colossus AND a sizable stalker support army, you're definitely not applying anywhere near-enough pressure. that is an intensely gas and time heavy army, especially after a phoenix/VR opener. as zerg, you need to use your mobility to your advantage to wreak havoc on the protoss base and army by sniping workers, units, and buildings, and especially denying the protoss from expanding.
as far as going hydra, that is definitely a good starter. the den is cheap and goes up fast, and hydras effectively shut down all protoss air, and still have high enough dps to deal with most of protoss ground army. but when the colossus come out, the ability for zerg to tech switch is a very strong advantage. you only need 1 spire to tech switch, whereas a protoss needed to build stargates in addition to gateways, robo bays, support bay, cyber core, and forge (upgrades) for his battle plan.
the unit combos described already in this thread work effectively, you just need to micro your units effectively to make the most of the battle. mutas -> snipe colossus, then send in zerglings to take out the stalkers. when dealing with templar, hit and run attacks to snipe them are very effective as well considering they cost 150 gas a piece. taking out the templar archives should be the first thing every zerg should try to do, imo, as the storm+amulet upgrades are expensive and take a while to complete.
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I don't encouter this comp as often as plain stalker/collosi/zealot... but when I do I, for the most part, scrap the roaches and simply mass hydra/corrupters. If he is going void collossi stalker (with a few zealots?) he wont have enough stalkers / collosi to shut down your ground game if you effectively use the corruption spell. (This is assuming you have good creep spread and decent positioning).
I am a ~2500 Master league player and I have found this to work better then anything else I have previously tried.
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I've lost doing this to mass corrupter followed up by mass roach. That was around a 350 food army, and if the Toss loses his army lategame and the Zerg stockpiled resources, that is an instant win for the Zerg assuming they have a larva cache ready to go.
Mass mutas die too easily to archons or templar, and aren't very good against voidrays anyways.
I've also lost to mass roach and corrupter before I could get enough voidrays and colossus to deal with the Zerg army.
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In the early game, when they first get air units, I get 3 queens and sit on that number until I get hydras. I also get an evo and get one spore per mineral line, you really do need this. Two things will happen, one will be what you explained already, they expand and tech colossi. The other is that they will try and warp gate rush you with air cover, usually voids. If you see voids, it's means an attack which is probably all-in, if you see phoenix then expect an expansion. If I see it's a void/gateway army, then I will mass roach and speedlings and get an extra queen for 4 total, hotkey your queens to an easy hotkey so you can transfuse, this is very important. If your opponent instead goes for nexus this is what I do...
I get hydras, I get overlord speed and overlord drop from both hatches at the same time. I then mass hydra, and go for a doom drop. It's worked for me ever since I saw nestea do this against choya recently because there is a pretty damn big window where they won't have a strong army because they are expanding and teching too quickly. It's really worked for me and honestly, if you're going hydra you need some form of transportation, whether it be nydus or drops because hydras are just too damn slow. I don't recommend nydus at all though, unless it's lost temple and you want to take islands and abuse the high ground natural but drops are just as expensive as a nydus+summon worm and you only need to pay for them once which makes them effective all game. If you can't beat your opponent or cripple them severely, then transition into banelings and go for baneling bombs on the colossi, it's extremely effective and due to colossi being able to walk over their own units, the splash damage is unbelievably strong. Give it a shot.
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On January 21 2011 07:48 hardethanolninja wrote:
Colossus/Void Ray is a tough composition to deal with, and storm can make it even more difficult.
Honestly, I think that the best bet is to not let Protoss get to that point. Void Rays and Colossus are extremely expensive and take awhile to get into a decent number. Deny expansions and starve your opponent.
I play Protoss, and the best way to beat Zerg is to expand expand expand. If I'm kept on 2 bases to their 3+ there is no way I can make an invincible VR/Colossus ball.
how can you not "let" them get this?voidrays will force you to defend until zerg gets hydras but they are quite expensive and immobile so it will take a while until you get enough and you are able to attack and then colossi are out - if the voids wouldnt buy protoss enough time to expand and switch none would do it
this combo is really a nightmare since voids are also very strong against your best colossi counter in larger numbers; atm im really thinking of not making hydras and go to spire asap
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Zerg combating Protoss Stargate play is looked at very in-depth in MrBitty's "12 weeks with the pros" series:
http://mrbitter.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc
What iNcontroL and Machine say, for the most part, is that information is absolutely critical in this matchup. Whether it be phoenix openings designed to keep your economy low, or void rays that are designed to either kill you or mitigate the effectiveness of corruptors, you have to have sufficient information to respond appropriately in the first place, then make the correct response.
iNcontroL talked about using a pack of 10-12 speedlings to aggressively control the watchtowers, harass exposed expansions, and deny information. This is step 1 of beating Stargate play.
Step 2 is aggressive creep spread, making sure you are at least a queen ahead of hatcheries so that you can respond to lone void rays and phoenix, while spreading creep effectively. The creep spread will give you valuable information on where and when the attacks are coming and will benefit your roach/hydra composition immensely.
The proper response once the Protoss starts to build up this "death ball" seems to be slowly building your roach / hydra army, as soon as you see void rays, hatch out 10-14 corruptors. Make sure you are aggressive in denying expansions, because a third base for Protoss will make the game exponentially harder to win for Zerg. When you engage, make certain you have a good arc and all of your roaches / hydras can attack. Focus the COLOSSUS with the corruptors first, the Colossus are the big damage dealers here, not the void rays. If you can keep the colossus count low, your roach/hydra mix should be able to walk through anything else the protoss throws at you.
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On January 21 2011 07:39 nkr wrote:
So my problem right now in zerg versus protoss is when they pressure you early with air and gain map control. The natural response to this is to make a few hydras so that you can actually move outside your base. At this point a protoss will have their expansion up and start going for colossi after their initial voidrays (and perhaps a pheonix to help lift queens).
I have found no efficient way to fight colossi & voidray, supported by gateway units obviously, without getting completely blown to pieces.
The best combination so far that has managed to put up somewhat of a fight is roach/corruptor supported by a few hydras (build too many and the colossi will eat through your army in a matter of seconds). However it's not enough as no game that reaches this point has ended in my favour.
Dear zerg users, and any protoss players that want to help the enemy, what's your response to this unit combination?
So as a protoss player, i find the biggest crux to be a large amount of corrupters, this is also what Machine suggested in his lesson with Mr.Bitter who is btw a phenomenal zerg player. But the weakness of this build is its ability to remax. As protoss it takes a very long time to remax off void ray and collosi and random wg units. Also i would like to throw out there that zerg isn't always supposed to be cost efficient, i say this because realistically your production should be much better.
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On January 21 2011 07:49 obsid wrote:
Its tough, hardest build I know of right now in ZvP. I think its best to go for a quick drop with hydra (trying ot hit before he gets too many colsi with range upgrade). If you cant hit before he gets colsi going then corrupter (vs phoenixs and colsi) or muta (vs voidrays) or a mixture, with speed roaches and lings to kill the warpgate stuff.
This is exactly what I was thinking. I try to do a doomdrop with hydra/roach before the two base protoss gets collosi (that is around the 11-12 minute mark I believe.) Due to the drop in the protoss base he has to fight my army head on and since hydras are good against gateway units I think this build theoretically is strong.
Also delay the first collosus with an overseer if you can.
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On January 21 2011 08:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Uh, mass Mutas. They'll be using a lot of gas too so you'll definitely have enough. Remember Colossi can't shoot up and it's not like they can adapt nearly as easily as they can say, with their Gateway units in response to the basic Zerg ground units. They mass enough voids somehow so that your mutas can't deal with them? Counter attack with zerglings and buy time to build up enough Mutas.
Do you truly believe that on this build, where there are 5-6 stargates, if you are going mass muta someone can't just press that X key a few times for 12-18 pheonix's? In the OP of the original Colossi/VR thread, there were replays of the guy getting 20 pheonix's in a game and still wrecking 200/200 hydra armies just by lifting everything up. So people WILL be getting Pheonix's in that build if pressured to, and they WILL tear everything up.
The only way I have lost to this is a Zerg saving up larvae, and then going 200/200 corrupter and spamming corruption on the VR's. And then remacroing up super fucking fast with a roach army or something and pushing with Roach/Corrupter/BL.
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corruptor realy works against both colossi and voidray. if its voidray rush. sporecrawlers is key
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On January 23 2011 22:48 xciLe wrote:
corruptor realy works against both colossi and voidray. if its voidray rush. sporecrawlers is key
Mate you clearly don't understand what you're saying. Voidray's melt Corruptors! and the OP wasn't talking about a "Voidray rush" he's talking about a late game army composition! you are not obligated to post! don't post unless you understand what you're talking about.
OP: Don't let the toss get 3+ bases to get that army because you need around a 350 food army or so to beat it! that is if he doesn't have money to rebuild it with 15 Warpgates and such! i'd recommend getting loads of Corruptors and roach/hydra combo! an Infestor or two would be nice! use Corruption on the colossi and shift click attack them all with the corruptors  .
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papoolee that was abit uncalled for honastley, his advise is sound from what he understands from the main poster, flaming doesn't help anybody.
the only way i've beaten this is going around 11 mins a doom drop with nydus retreat before the +range collus+1-2 voids (with left over gateway defense)
it's 50:50 for me,
silver vs master 2200 players eu, esl. thats just my exp
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Yeah I seem to have come across this build alot. And I cringe when I see 3 Collosi + 3 VR'sand a size-able ground force.
I did try to pressure him but got rofl stomped and managed to just fend off the counter. Sure i know im behind at this stage ? What now ? Allin ? or try take that extra base ?
IDK...
But I agree this composition bites~!
Im testing Infestors now. to NP the Collossi and fight air with Corruptors and a smallish roach army... Hope it works... :/
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Sounds like a strong build, any chance you have a replay? But it definitely sounds like getting extra queens early and going roach hydra with a lot of corruptors would work, considering that his ground army shouldn't be that huge spending it on tons of gas on high tech units.
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I'm no pro by any means, but I think if I as protoss have 3 mining bases and a maxed army with vrs and colossi, then 8 am hard to stop. Unless the zerg has 4+ mining bases and enough larvae to instantly remax.
Either have more mining/production the protoss, or don't let them get to that stage. Unit composition is less important than just having way more stuff than them.
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EPT
