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well if Zergs actually played a little like the other races, viewing their hatches as Unitproduction structures.
keep constantly building 1 Drone per Hatch (+ Additional ones for Buildings) like the other races, it gives them a superior unit production ability actually.
each Hatch grants then 2 Unit Slots + extra 4 per larva inject
and saying (Speed)-Zerglings or Roaches are not cost efficient, is far from the truth.
unlike the other races, Zerg saves so much Money since they don't have to build any production buildings. (besides Tech)
Of course Macro Zerg abuses the ability,of exponential incme growth and Larva stacking ability.
But then don't whine when the enemy pressures early and stops you right there.
There has to be a Playstyle between 6-Pool/All-Ins, and Hatch First.
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Everyone's currently familiar with the really defensive style of zerg atm, but as the game evolves, I'm positive you'll see really aggro zergs who are in your face all the time, noones discovered a good way to do it yet.
You'll then see 2 kinds of zergs, the really aggro Jaedong/July style zergs who are in your face all the time, and you'll see players like IdrA and Fruitdealer continue to play that defensive/management style of a savior/gorush.
Never let anyone tell you that there's one way you should be playing, especially when the game is so young. If you want to be all aggro all the time, go ahead and do it, and find a way to make it better.
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On January 12 2011 00:13 Tumor wrote:
@the oldy:
think about the cost of an Exp:
Terra cost 400 gives aditional 11 Supply thats under 300
Zerg cost 300 + drone = 350 + 2 supply
Protoss 400 Cost 10 Supply thats also just 300 +the cost of a pylon
so its the zerg exp is the expensiv one
I wish my command center or nexus could produce every unit for my race too, then.
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On January 12 2011 00:03 THE_oldy wrote:
Zerg are ment to slowly consume the map, and eventually overwhelm with pure numbers, and i think it fits there lore perfectly.
And yes they were designed this way, just look at there creep mechanic, and the way they are encouraged to expand (only 300 for hatch, and you need them for unit production)
A hatch costs 350.
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TLO plays pretty offensive with zerg also. He use overlords drop alot. 
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stop arguing about the relative cost of hatcheries etc. its off topic
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On January 11 2011 23:59 Grapefruit wrote:
I'm talking about the defesive way they are played these days.
I mean are they supposed to be like that?
I've never really played SC1 or BW online, so I don't know if it was the same case in these games but I think the way Zerg is played doesn't really fit the race.
Isn't Zerg supposed to be the race that constantly pressures and attacks the enemy instead of constantly fending stuff off?
And don't get me wrong, this is not a complaint about balance in any way, I'd just like to hear what you guys think about it.
Were the Zerg designed to be defensive or is that just a consequence of the current meta-game?
The waves of attack thing tends to happen in lategame ZvT when the terran goes mech. Check them out.
However, zerg needs to build up a ravenous economy before that can happen, and usually the protoss and terrans try to stop that with more mobile less cost efficient armies. That's why z macro's up as much as possible and defends the constant attacks. Late game you might have more of the starship troopers play that you want to see. There has to be a reason for attacking.
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I am personally really opening up with mass lings (with possible blings or roaches thrown in) vs protoss and zerg in the early game. Makes me feel all cool and shit when I don't have to sit back for 10 minutes and macro in order to have a threatening force.
Vs Terran though, its still macro or die. The only unit that can successfully do any sort of prodding against a turtling terran is mutalisks, and they take 10+ minutes to get to safely. Lings, blings, and roaches all do way too little to Ts econ that they're not worth investing heavily into through the early game, there just doesn't seem to be any way around it.
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On January 12 2011 00:42 freetgy wrote:
well if Zergs actually played a little like the other races, viewing their hatches as Unitproduction structures.
keep constantly building 1 Drone per Hatch (+ Additional ones for Buildings) like the other races, it gives them a superior unit production ability actually.
each Hatch grants then 2 Unit Slots + extra 4 per larva inject
and saying (Speed)-Zerglings or Roaches are not cost efficient, is far from the truth.
unlike the other races, Zerg saves so much Money since they don't have to build any production buildings. (besides Tech)
Of course Macro Zerg abuses the ability,of exponential incme growth and Larva stacking ability.
But then don't whine when the enemy pressures early and stops you right there.
There has to be a Playstyle between 6-Pool/All-Ins, and Hatch First.
Wow. This post is so far from the truth that it is almost mind boggling.
Do you even play zerg? Do you know how the zerg larvae mechanic works?
So a zerg will just make 1 drone per hatch every once in awhile while pumping lings every 2 larva against a FE toss..... The toss is playing defensive, using the map, cannon placement and buildings to his advantage. And you have a bunch of useless lings sitting around while you have no timings or aren't powering drones all at the same time the toss is getting way more and more ahead economically. Sure, I'll do that. Great plan.
"well if Zergs actually played a little like the other races, viewing their hatches as Unitproduction structures."
Are you kidding me? The whole idea behind the zerg race in SC2, and in BW, for a fact is the fine balance between finding when to drone and when to build attacking units. How do you play a race like another race that is FUNDAMENTALLY DESIGNED differently? That's like saying 'I'll just fly a plane like how I drive a car because, ya know, they both get me from point A to point B.'
In terms of how zerg is played, I think generally this is how zerg should be played. But perhaps, we are a little too defensive until mid-late game. There are really no timings at all until we get saturation in our main and expansion. The cost-benefit factor of pumping early lings in hope of doing damage is way off balance. What I mean is it is way riskier to do that than to just drone up heavily and rely on scouting to deflect timing attacks.
Would a zerg rather make lings early or make drones early? Most choose to drone heavy because the chances are that droning (with good scouting) is a lot higher to 'win' the game (because zergs strength is macro). However, I do think because of the new maps (longer rush distances and easier third bases) T/P will be forced to play with less agressive rushing styles which will cause Zerg to be more agressive and abuse their mobility because T/P will play a lot more passively (macro oriented).
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After watching the day9 where you were not allowed to build queens a believe zergs have some effective techniques to rush the opponent. If you skip the first queen production you can produce 5 mutas about a minute faster than if you made the queen. Also the early in base hatchery seems to work just as well as a queen and allows for better production late game. On top of that you can always produce a queen from that in base hatch or after the lair upgrade.
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Its because of the slow movement of zerg units outside creep i think, so zergs tend to atk only when they have larger creep spread...
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On January 12 2011 01:16 P0ckets wrote:
After watching the day9 where you were not allowed to build queens a believe zergs have some effective techniques to rush the opponent. If you skip the first queen production you can produce 5 mutas about a minute faster than if you made the queen. Also the early in base hatchery seems to work just as well as a queen and allows for better production late game. On top of that you can always produce a queen from that in base hatch or after the lair upgrade.
Yes, but you wouldn't be able to do much after.
SC2 zerg mechanics is fundamentally different from the likes of bw. The Queen makes it so zergs don't have to have so many hatches. Larva was a precious, precious commodity back in the day. That's why losing even 1 drone early game was big.
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I am not expert by any means (2200 Diamond). One of many thoughts why zerg cannot be aggressive as you suggest:
"ZERG HAS TO TAKE NATURAL ASAP IN EARLY GAME".
When zerg does not do that then P or T can easily turtle and 1 base vs 1 base zerg losses. P can chronoboost probes and T can use mules.
If you accept the premise that zerg has to take natural in early game you will come to conclusion that zerg must defend in beginning.
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If any one watched day9 daily last night they will see that early aggression isn't really that easy but you can do some pretty sweet shit with nydus worms.
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It would seem that zerg were designed to be defensive.
Zerg has almost zero early-game harassment options.
their longest-range t1 unit is the roach, which has 4 range, less than marines & stalkers. On top of that, roach has a t1 speed of 2.25, slower than stimmed marines & stalkers. banelings die when used, so you HAVE to do damage with them if you want to use them to harass (unlike hellions or banshees for example, which can force your opponent to build certain units and can contain even if they don't actually kill anything).
The only t1 unit zerg can use to effectively harass is the zergling, but only with speed upgrade. Even then, it's a melee unit, and can't do anything against a terran wall or force field.
The first real harass unit zerg can get is the mutalisk, which requires at least 1000 gas of mutas to be effective. Even after THAT, muta harass is not nearly as effective at killing units as it was in bw, and basically just serves to contain terran/toss while taking a 3rd and droning up.
Some zerg units are very slow off-creep, such as the hydralisk, making it impossible to harass with these units.
On top of this, zerg's only mobile t1 AA unit is the queen, definitely NOT a harass unit. If terran walls and makes 2 banshees, what are you gonna to do harass him? NOTHING until you get t2 units.
Because of all of this, and because zerg has no way to wall off their ramp effectively, zerg 1 base openers are generally not good at all, and are basically limited to 5/7RR and baneling bust, both of which can be easily stopped if they are scouted, and a 1 base baneling bust is basically all-in. Therefore, zerg always wants to expand as soon as possible, because they can't really do much with 1 base.
Lastly, zerg's macro mechanic favors drone massing more than any other race.
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On January 12 2011 01:22 Kudo wrote:
Yes, but you wouldn't be able to do much after.
SC2 zerg mechanics is fundamentally different from the likes of bw. The Queen makes it so zergs don't have to have so many hatches. Larva was a precious, precious commodity back in the day. That's why losing even 1 drone early game was big.
If the mutas get shut down without damaging their economy, production, or cause them to delay an attack you are in a bad position. But if you can force them to delay long enough you can get your second up easily, with a good amount of drones. I like to build an in base at the top of the ramp with 2-3 spine crawlers next or behind it. I like to focus on minimal amount of zerglings and most produce drones and over saturate my main in preparation for expansion. I also like to drop a queen at after lair pop or when in base pops, but sometimes queen spawns in a bad position from in base since it at the ramp. Once Mutas are being produced you move the Overlords to reposition the crawlers for proper expansion defense and drop the expo at next 300 and maynard a ton of drones.
I find that the spine crawler, hatchery block makes many people fear to push or doing a wtf and pull back. If they continue and the push is significant I try to drop more crawlers. I have yet to be Banshee rushed with this but with the early lair I think you could get an earlier overseer if you’re scouting properly. With proper scouting I feel it isn’t to terrible and is good enough to get you a win here and there.
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On January 12 2011 00:41 aka_star wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 00:18 Grapefruit wrote:On January 12 2011 00:13 Tumor wrote:
@the oldy:
think about the cost of an Exp:
Terra cost 400 gives aditional 11 Supply thats under 300
Zerg cost 300 + drone = 350 + 2 supply
Protoss 400 Cost 10 Supply thats also just 300 +the cost of a pylon
so its the zerg exp is the expensiv one I, as a zerg player, don't think this is a fair way to put it. The hatch also generates creep and serves a unit producing structure. But you can also say a CC provides extra production for scv's, can turn into an indestrutable PF or a cash cow orbital with free supply and vision. The Nexus provides an extra crono for double prob production and faster research. So the creep and the 7 larva a minute with a queen is still meh in terms of what terran can make of his.
Zerg can produce military units from a hatchery - therefore expanding as zerg is actually being aggressive. A 14 hatch would be the equivalent of a terran going 2-3 rax before getting gas or a second depot.
As for the cost - yes absolute cost is roughly the same/more expensive than the other races when considering supply. However, early in the game the limiting factor is cashflow as opposed to absolute cost - and it is easier (and faster) to get 300 minerals than it is to get 400 - especially when doing so with the other races would mean forgoing unit producing structures like barraks or gateways (therfore making expanding w/ the other races a non-aggressive strategy).
Conclusion: expanding as zerg is paying zerg aggressively.
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no, inbase hatch would be playing agressiv.
i mean i can understand, that if you can defend the hatch first at your natural it is superior, than any other build, but that is the same for i.e. Nexus First
still you don't see any protoss whining because they can't go Nexus first all the game.
Why does Zerg? Ling/Roach is a fine Core Unit and are far from beeing cost inefficient.
i mean it's not like Zerg is gonna fall back in Economy in 1 vs. 1 Base, the rise of economy would just been delayed a little due inbase hatch, but still the hatch is also a unit production structure so putting down 1 or 2 isn't that much of a deal at all.
and ofcourse an inbase hatch opening is easier to defend against early pressure than a natural first.
i mean you can still take your natural early enough, the exponential economy gain is still there, you just don't die early your enemy has the ability to Canon/Bunker-Rush you.
I rather deal with Zerg Hatch First than Pool First because it delays speedlings, giving me mapcontrol for a longer time and opens timings that would be there to exploit if they didn't
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On January 12 2011 02:59 freetgy wrote:
no inbase hatch would be playing agressiv.
i mean i can understand, that if you can defend the hatch first it is superior, than any other build, but that is the same for i.e. Nexus First
still you don't see any protoss whining because they can't go Nexus first all the game.
Why does Zerg?
i mean it's not like Zerg is gonna fall back in Economy, the rise of economy would just been delayed a little due inbase hatch, but still the hatch is also a unit production structure so putting down 1 or 2 isn't that much of a deal at all.
and ofcourse an inbase hatch opening is easier to defend against early pressure than a natural first.
i mean you can still take your natural early enough, the exponential economy gain is still there, you just don't die early your enemy has the ability to Canon/Bunker-Rush you.
economy is exactly why zerg has to FE every game.
I used to try and justify things like you do, but Zerg doesn't have the unit-production capabilities to keep up with chronoboost and MULEs in the early game.
It doesn't make a lot of sense when you're reading it in a post, but open up any ZvX replay and look at worker counts through the first 10 minutes. Due to losing a drone every time he builds a building, the Zerg player is 2-3 workers behind his Protoss opponent and is 1-2 workers ahead of his Terran opponent, but then T has MULEs.
In order to have a competitive economy in that 20-40 worker range, Zerg has to expand to make their drones mine faster because they can't actually have more workers than the other races.
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I think it's mostly because of myths such as:
1. On January 12 2011 00:13 Sajuuk7 wrote:
1 hold position Zealot can hold off 6 Zerglings.
2. On January 12 2011 01:49 kalaz wrote:
"ZERG HAS TO TAKE NATURAL ASAP IN EARLY GAME".
When zerg does not do that then P or T can easily turtle and 1 base vs 1 base zerg losses. P can chronoboost probes and T can use mules.
If you accept the premise that zerg has to take natural in early game you will come to conclusion that zerg must defend in beginning.
and last, but not least
3. On January 12 2011 00:16 VonBlucher wrote:
Zerg units are obviously less cost effective than a majority of Terran and Protoss units,
but also because of the playstyles of pros, since they take a huge part in shaping the metagame.
Regarding the myths:
1. I have 6 zerglings, and you have a gateway+cyber+zealot walloff. If I tried attacking your zealot 1 ling would survive, but I'm inteligent, so I wont. What will you do if I attack a cybercore instead? If you move out with your zealot, Ill either runby, or kill him with 5 lings remaining. If you won't you'll lose your cyber delaying your tech by quite a bit(or at least forcing you to plant another one somewhere). Seems like succesfull harassment to me. Of course, as all harassments it only works at specific timing - 4:20.
2. P will chronoboost probes? So what? Thanks to zerg macromechanics you can produce drones even faster than chronoboosting P. You can also produce drones just as fast as P and match his unit production(but it makes no sense to do so, since it gives you no advantage), or produce a lot of units at once to gain a momentary army advantage(7 RR for example). Tosses chrono can speed up their probe or army production, but not as much as Zerg larvae-mechanic does. Instead it can also speed up tosses research.
T on the other hand will get more from a single base - that's the strength of their macromechanic.
3. Really... Speedlings are pretty much always cost effective, unless you attack at bad positions(watch out for FFs though). Roaches rape all Gateway units and are at least decent against everything else. Banelings are cost effective vs everything, but mass Collosi/Siege Tanks.
Obviously less cost effective?
The real problem is, Zerg doesn't have anything that can deal wih collosi+FFs and siegetanks well. At least, untill Brood Lords come into play, but since both P and T have direct counters to them with decent ranges(VRs and Vikings) they only really work once.
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EPT
