[D] Are Zerg played the right way? - Page 5

On January 12 2011 03:50 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I think you're not correct in your points either.

1) It's possible to harass with 6 lings, but they never ever manage to take a cyber core down. As soon as the protoss has 2 units (no matter which) he can scare them away. Sure, it might put him in a defensive mindset, but is that worth the huge economic loss you have by going a low economic build?

2) If you watch replays closely, you'll realise that even in hatch first builds a protoss will have an even (to start with higher) worker count as the zerg for a very long time. If a protoss does a fairly fast expand aswell, this trend reaches far into the mid game. A very early hatch is imperative for zerg, simply because they need the extra larvae to spend their money. And in most cases there is no reason not to take the hatch at the natural, so zergs just tend to FE whenever they can.

If you don't believe me, try comparing a 4 gating Protoss with a 1 basing zerg. The zerg will have no way the same production capabilities in eco/army as the protoss.

3) I agree with you here, speedlings are awesome with good positioning. I just think that banelings are very overrated, esp vs tanks/marines. A terran with good micro will target the advancing banelings and split his marines, so while the few banelings that actually make contact are indeed very cost effective, the loads that got sniped before they got there make banelings rather cost ineffective on average imo.

On January 12 2011 05:04 Zerokaiser wrote:
1. What good is that going to do? You get the cybercore's shield almost down and a second unit pops out. Harassment over.

2. Protoss is not significantly behind in workers for quite some time, and no, you can't match his unit production (especially if you make drones as well). There's not really any room for argument with the unit production thing...you just can't. I don't know what you're talking about.

3. Again, Speedlings are pretty cost effective against solitary units and units that suck against speedlings (Stalkers). As soon as there is a second zealot the cost-efficiency plummits (Speedlings are also terribly larvae-inefficient. I don't know why you would argue Zerg can maintain production against Protoss and then suggest speedlings.

If you think banelings are cost effective against Protoss...I don't know, you're just bad at math? It takes 5 banelings to kill a zealot, 250/125, and Zealots tend to spread decently in a Protoss army compared to a marine or something. Even if we say you avoided FF and the like and killed an awesome-case-scenario 4 Zealots, that's still 250/125 versus 400. It's 25 resources more, but it's 125 GAS. That is fucking important stuff for Zerg (and any race).
It's also pretty obvious you've never tried killing a Stalker with banelings.

On January 12 2011 10:47 Let it Raine wrote:
you know whats fun about zerg

not being able to scout. You have to be playing clue and have a list of possibilities in which you cross off every time your opponent makes a mistake and allows you to gain any shred of intel. It's pretty fun having two overlords sitting just out of range of patrolling stalkers knowing that if you try to move in you wont see anything and will just be down 200 minerals and supply.

so since you can't actually scout and know things for sure, this makes playing defensive that much more ridiculous. The other two races can choose one of many 1 basing pushes.

and then any unit composition involving mech actually has no obvious answer... do you go roaches or do you go lings? armies of lings fall to every tank shot, but roaches end the same if you actually try to move forward and attack.

as a mediocre 2100 zerg my opinions are obviously incorrect at some level, but holy crap I just don't see how zerg is even with the other races at all. Most of my wins involve incredibly close, long games, where I have 15k more resources score. Mostly due to the part where zerg can't actually finish other races when they're massively ahead thanks to mass killers/ranged units and chokes.

Gotta wait for them to push out themselves and hope they quit/don't kill you with it.

On January 12 2011 10:47 Let it Raine wrote:
you know whats fun about zerg

not being able to scout.

On January 12 2011 11:07 Alphasquad wrote:
they also cannot tech as there is nothing that is strong in low numbers like banshees or voidrays - zerg needs mass

On January 12 2011 09:27 FlayedOne wrote:


Okey, since we already broke it down:

1) Do I need to go "low economic build"? 11 pool is still more economic than Protoss not cutting probes constantly chronoing nexus... 2 zealots still cant leave the choke or they risk a runby. 2 Lots cost 200 to 150 cost of 6 lings = more minerals for drones - Zerg still comes out at the top.

2) When zerg goes hatch first he uses 300 minerals on a hatchery early on... it's pretty obsious why he's behind in drones compared to 1 basing protoss, right?

One basing zerg reaches saturation faster than 1 basing protoss, and once they both reach it, he gets equal unit production(income is the restricting factor). Since roaches > gateway units, one basing roach pumping zerg>4 gates. There is no contest. Tosses only can win, because zergs expand, or attack before saturation.

Try this.

3) Banelings are not overrated, people just tend to not use them in right amounts.a ball of banelings woth equall minerals+gas rolls over through everything without massed splash/FFs with some leftovers if the armies are big enough. People just tend to use them as an addition to mass lings. I rolled over 2x200 supply armies of standart compositions in 2v2s with 200 supply army of banelings that was worth less money than either of them more than once. Their effectivness kicks in when there is a lot of units though. In small amouns slings are great, so it evens out.



1) You'd be surprised how quickly 6 lings can tear a cybercore down. Imagine 12 speedlings? Yes, zerg can get them and not be behind in drones compared to tosses probes. No, I don't know why they don't do it. Or maybe I do... Forge + Cannons renders those lings useless.

2) Ok, define 'unit production'. To me it's an ability to spend cash on army. To spend all of minerals of a saturated base on speedlings a zerg needs 2 hatches + 1 queen(550/100). That's fine. It's still less minerals spent on unit producing structures than a toss needs. A Toss goes 4 warpgates? Fine, he needs 800 mis+50 gas spent on gateways and cybercore + warpgate tech, while zerg needs to spend 500 on queen+roach warren+spawning pool. Throw in 100/100 for ling speed or 150/100 on lair and zerg is still ahead. Thanks to faster saturation zerg can also afford roach speed. Than a zerg can make 7 roaches every ~45 seconds which puts him equal or a bit better than 4 warpgating toss. Thanks to cost effectiveness of speed roaches against 4 warpgates, they're gonna own.

I honestly dont get the "matching unit production" bullshit. If you can spend resources with BETTER flexibility than your opponent(and zerg CAN! they can make all drones or all units for gods sake), and have a similar or better income(and zerg HAVE! they saturate faster!) Why would you supposedly be "unable to match others unit production"?

3) no, speedlings rape everything that doesn't have mass splash, or isn't in tight space. Zealots? They are NOT cost effecient against lings(another myth) unless you have upgrade advantage. Even big balls of lots lose to equall cost balls of lings. Speedlings may be larvae inefficient, but it's still only 1 hatch more needed(without queens) per saturated base. 4 hatches+queens is enough for 3x18 drones mining for pure speedling production, and when do you have more than 3 saturated bases? You'd lose because of lack of army supply(too much on drones). I wouldn't say "terribly". You can afford pure speedling + expand in a similar fashion to 3 warpgate expand. Do you call 3 warpgates inefficient because you can't spend all resources on units? Everything depends on what you're gonna do with the extras.

Banelings are great against all balls. It's not about "1 vs 1" math. It's about "try and attack one side of a protoss ball with speedlings, watch them use their FFs up, and then run from the other one with banes. Watch the ball evaporate. Rinse and repeat." Honestly. A Ball of stalkers loses to a ball of banes of equall cost by FAR. Same with marauders. The only things that can save them are long range splash and obstacles(natural and FFs).

You're right. I've never tried to kill 1 stalker with banelings - it's pointless. I did however run over a sentryless ball of stalkers, zealots and collosi with a ball of banelings many times.

On January 12 2011 13:04 Sablar wrote:
Zerg always defending the early game becomes boring I think. It seems like I either loose to some early pressure or I win because I held it.

I'm not really sure what else Z can do. 1 base zerg timing attack into expand? I don't know, maybe it can be done, but it does strike me as very all-in.

On January 12 2011 10:47 Let it Raine wrote:
you know whats fun about zerg

not being able to scout. You have to be playing clue and have a list of possibilities in which you cross off every time your opponent makes a mistake and allows you to gain any shred of intel. It's pretty fun having two overlords sitting just out of range of patrolling stalkers knowing that if you try to move in you wont see anything and will just be down 200 minerals and supply.

so since you can't actually scout and know things for sure, this makes playing defensive that much more ridiculous. The other two races can choose one of many 1 basing pushes.

and then any unit composition involving mech actually has no obvious answer... do you go roaches or do you go lings? armies of lings fall to every tank shot, but roaches end the same if you actually try to move forward and attack.

as a mediocre 2100 zerg my opinions are obviously incorrect at some level, but holy crap I just don't see how zerg is even with the other races at all. Most of my wins involve incredibly close, long games, where I have 15k more resources score. Mostly due to the part where zerg can't actually finish other races when they're massively ahead thanks to mass killers/ranged units and chokes.

Gotta wait for them to push out themselves and hope they quit/don't kill you with it.

On January 12 2011 13:04 Sablar wrote:
Zerg always defending the early game becomes boring I think. It seems like I either loose to some early pressure or I win because I held it.

I'm not really sure what else Z can do. 1 base zerg timing attack into expand? I don't know, maybe it can be done, but it does strike me as very all-in.