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Ogna
United States106 Posts
basically i cant figure out if i just out macroed him of if i out microed him with the emp, if i didnt emp who would have won? lets say he did really good FF The battle is around the 22min mark i think! Also if u just want to see some cool emps you can check it out  http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3877/Ogna_vs_pAtrOn | ||
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bobucles
410 Posts
Yeah. It's fair to say the EMPs killed everything. I think he was banking on mass sentry to overcome not quite having a critical mass of colossus. That sort of strategy depends HEAVILY upon spamming enough force fields to keep the colossus safe. | ||
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Moriarity
United States91 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
As a terran -- how hard did your dick get when you saw that EMP land, and the sentries all have no mana? I get such a eBoner when I land moneyshots, as I call them, EMPs. Like when ya see 4 immortals clumped, and BAM down, 16 food gone. 1000 minerals gone! | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On January 09 2011 11:40 iAmJeffReY wrote: Definitely the EMP. But don't count it out as you were worse, landing an EMP is just like landing a storm -- it's a part of the game. As a terran -- how hard did your dick get when you saw that EMP land, and the sentries all have no mana? I get such a eBoner when I land moneyshots, as I call them, EMPs. Like when ya see 4 immortals clumped, and BAM down, 16 food gone. 1000 minerals gone! so awesome | ||
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Ogna
United States106 Posts
On January 09 2011 11:40 iAmJeffReY wrote: Definitely the EMP. But don't count it out as you were worse, landing an EMP is just like landing a storm -- it's a part of the game. As a terran -- how hard did your dick get when you saw that EMP land, and the sentries all have no mana? I get such a eBoner when I land moneyshots, as I call them, EMPs. Like when ya see 4 immortals clumped, and BAM down, 16 food gone. 1000 minerals gone! LOL @ eBoner!!!! hahaha it was a good feeling was a lot of anticipation for that first engagemant, both of us 3baseing. | ||
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Kakisho
United States240 Posts
In SCII every single unit is in a tight ball and move fluidly. EMP is also practically instant and has a very big radius. Too many things going for it. Imagine if EMP shot a projectile, that detonated 2 seconds afterwards? The worst part of EMP is that the opponent cannot REACT to it. If you didn't know your opponent has one ghost, in his army of 100 marines marauders, medivacs, then you're kinda going to take extremely high damage from the EMP. If the opponent had psionic storm, you can retreat and try to bait bad storms. How do you bait EMP? The Terran player just has to click when there are as many units under the circle as possible and boom, instant. Then the Terran player can make sure he gets most of the spellcasters, all of which happen to be very slow units (templar, infestor, ghost, mothership, queen, raven, sentry) who can't really do a thing to REACT to EMP. The only counterargument to this is that you have to spread out your units. But it's hard to keep your army spread out, when moving around, it's really micro intensive. And also, a ghost can EMP multiple times, so a few ghosts can easily cover a large area. I know this isnt' the right place, but I felt like ranting. | ||
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pureability
United States137 Posts
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patron
United States63 Posts
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SecretA5DC
Korea (South)225 Posts
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gangstarr
United States68 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:26 patron wrote: As the victim here let me settle the score. Yes I was outplayed, but I had an army that would have been able to win that engagement with proper forcefields. The reason I lost was because I didn't spread my sentries, didn't scout my opponents army b4 hand, and didn't even need to engage at that point anyways. I would have been just fine defending my 3rd and pumping a few extra colossus. However had Ogna responded then with a sufficient number of vikings, he would have still won. All in all, Ogna deserved the win, but emps definitely decided the outcome of the big battle. Nice to see a mannered player that can accept a loss. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:29 SecretA5DC wrote: How do you get EMPs to land on Vrays? I swear I keep missing them all the time aim for the shadow beneath them. | ||
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QuackWare
18 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:29 SecretA5DC wrote: How do you get EMPs to land on Vrays? I swear I keep missing them all the time You have to aim sorta "below" them. Usually there is a small line and a dot that you can see which represents their true location on the group and that is where you need to emp. They are just kind of "above" that place because they are flying. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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patron
United States63 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:30 gangstarr wrote: Nice to see a mannered player that can accept a loss. Why thank you The good that came from this is that I have 2 new practice partners! | ||
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Skank
United States329 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:10 Kakisho wrote: Agree, but I kinda think landing good EMP's are too easy. In broodwar, landing perfect storms was kinda hard because if you were fighting a hundred lings, twenty hydras and a bunch of ultralisks, they came in, in akward streams from several angles, because you could only select 12 at a time. In SCII every single unit is in a tight ball and move fluidly. EMP is also practically instant and has a very big radius. Too many things going for it. Imagine if EMP shot a projectile, that detonated 2 seconds afterwards? The worst part of EMP is that the opponent cannot REACT to it. If you didn't know your opponent has one ghost, in his army of 100 marines marauders, medivacs, then you're kinda going to take extremely high damage from the EMP. If the opponent had psionic storm, you can retreat and try to bait bad storms. How do you bait EMP? The Terran player just has to click when there are as many units under the circle as possible and boom, instant. Then the Terran player can make sure he gets most of the spellcasters, all of which happen to be very slow units (templar, infestor, ghost, mothership, queen, raven, sentry) who can't really do a thing to REACT to EMP. The only counterargument to this is that you have to spread out your units. But it's hard to keep your army spread out, when moving around, it's really micro intensive. And also, a ghost can EMP multiple times, so a few ghosts can easily cover a large area. I know this isnt' the right place, but I felt like ranting. Guess who tends to have the most balled up army? Terran. Guess which race EMP affects the least? Terran (it can be useful vs infestors). Guess which race had to learn to spread marines and marauders months ago to avoid fungral growths, banelings, storms, and collosi splash damage? Terran. Guess which race using storms, that have massive aoe, and gets outplayed by EMP's because they've never had to spread their army before? PROTOSS!!!! | ||
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Skank
United States329 Posts
Yeah I'd totes call that a money shot. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:50 Skank wrote: Guess who tends to have the most balled up army? Terran. Guess which race EMP affects the least? Terran (it can be useful vs infestors). Guess which race had to learn to spread marines and marauders months ago to avoid fungral growths, banelings, storms, and collosi splash damage? Terran. Guess which race using storms, that have massive aoe, and gets outplayed by EMP's because they've never had to spread their army before? PROTOSS!!!! Guess which race has to find the next cheesy strat after another to win games. Terran. | ||
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EMPaThy789
New Zealand878 Posts
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zDUST
Finland165 Posts
On January 09 2011 15:00 mR.bONG789 wrote: imo emp should have a travel time, compared to storms they are much better againest protoss. 100 damage to shields instantly vs 80 damage over 4 secs means that even if the emp doesnt hit any spellcasters they will still take off a huge chunk of hp. The difference (imho) is that strom and fg are more widely useful. EMP is awesome vs toss, but much less useful vs zerg or terran. Sure, if you face infestors it's great but kind of countered by burrow. Against terran it's only really useful against starport units or other ghosts - hmm, going to start thinking about using it vs medivacs now... | ||
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FreezingAssassin
United States455 Posts
People really need to QQ less about Terran/Zerg/Protoss and start grinding games to get better. Broodwar Topics were so much better t.t | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
But yeah, you would have lost if you didn't have any ghost in that battle and I don't think it had anything to do with macro in that battle, you just out microed him in the battle. And guys, don't turn this into a emp whine thread. It is not what the thread is about. | ||
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GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:26 patron wrote: As the victim here let me settle the score. Yes I was outplayed, but I had an army that would have been able to win that engagement with proper forcefields. The reason I lost was because I didn't spread my sentries, didn't scout my opponents army b4 hand, and didn't even need to engage at that point anyways. I would have been just fine defending my 3rd and pumping a few extra colossus. However had Ogna responded then with a sufficient number of vikings, he would have still won. All in all, Ogna deserved the win, but emps definitely decided the outcome of the big battle. You sir, made me not regret taking a peek in the strategy section... | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On January 09 2011 15:00 mR.bONG789 wrote: imo emp should have a travel time, compared to storms they are much better againest protoss. 100 damage to shields instantly vs 80 damage over 4 secs means that even if the emp doesnt hit any spellcasters they will still take off a huge chunk of hp. EMP Storm Shields. Hitpoints. Recharges. Doesn't. Can't kill. Can kill. 45+ Second build time plus travel time Warp in death shots. A bit different. Learn to spread and preconcave like terran has to to win battles, and spread units through hotkeys so EMP can't hit many. Hell, run an OB or two around ahead and feedback ghosts. EMP is hard enough to use. It's already got a 'travel' time, and you have to place it ahead of where you think they're moving. /end mocking But forreal, EMP can't be warped in, that's the big difference. | ||
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Executerror
New Zealand28 Posts
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PatouPower
Canada1119 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:19 pureability wrote: and storm isnt easy to land? fungle growth isnt easy? ff's arent easy and imba? give me a break you op race playing nub Wow, just wow. The above poster only explained a gameplay issue in relation to the OP question,m and you flame him? You flame 1 person in particular while he's only kind of answering to the OP. Go back to battle.net forums please, this is where you belong... | ||
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
no it was just a FUCKTON of ghosts over-EMPing a static ball. Was waiting for much more since youre diamond and all. | ||
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deanyo
United Kingdom206 Posts
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EG.Thorzain
Sweden164 Posts
On January 09 2011 15:00 mR.bONG789 wrote: imo emp should have a travel time, compared to storms they are much better againest protoss. 100 damage to shields instantly vs 80 damage over 4 secs means that even if the emp doesnt hit any spellcasters they will still take off a huge chunk of hp. Many tend to forget that only immortals, colossus, archons and some air units we rarely see used in fights even have 100 shield or more. All the gateway units have less. Zealots have 50 shield, so that's basically just "50 damage" with your logic. Stalkers have 80, Sentries have 40 (yes, emp still owns them cuz of the energy removal). And since the protoss army will consist of 70% out of these units, and the rest colossus/immortal, You can't really say that it deals 100 damage to all the units it hits. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
Storm vs. EMP balance discussion deserves its own forum | ||
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Zacsafus
England255 Posts
Although i would still say that in some of the fights in the replay Cloud has a huge army lead resource and gas wise and despite emp all of Adel's army and like all but 2 hts, just the 2 or 3 storms he gets off is enough to make the fights look close when in reality they shouldnt have done. Still shows that with amazing skills it is possible to counter storm, also its just a win game between two awesome players! | ||
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
I'm not meaning in engagements per se, but in general luls of agression. A well spreaded terran army can dodge storms much more easily, and a well spreaded protoss army is obviously better versus EMP's. Argueing which caster is stronger or 'OP' is like argueing which is better, muta-ling-baneling or marine-tank-thor. With good controll, a marine-tank-thor composition is equiped to take out that composition head on. However, because the zerg is much more mobile they can emphasize on bad positioning much more. A great relation that is balanced around actual micro and positioning skill rather than macro into win. This is why I LOVE to watch ZvT's in the midgame and TvP's in the late-midgame. High templar should generallly come out ahead if the protoss is very skilled versus ghosts, as feedback outranges EMP. If the protoss is lazy and doesn't spread his high templar/sentries out while he is doing just general macro then yes, those casters will be useless. However, the same can be said about a terran opponent that balls up 50 marines and then comes to complain about storm being imbalanced, because it hit perfectly and punished an unwary opponent. These match ups are tough. ZvZ, TvP and ZvT all rely on micro sooner or later. In ZvZ its about dodging banelings cost effectively, in ZvT its about making sure your banelings don't get crushed by tanks. In TvZ its about banelings not eating up your marines, while in TvP its about dodging storms and forcefields. PvT gets pretty hard during the emp phase. People should be GLAD that it is getting harder to beat opponents. General good micro is a LOT more satisfying to watch than a 1base allin or macro into 1a deathball. Remember good reaver drops? Amazing mines? That entertainment will come back as the game gets more mature. All the elements for this excitement are available. They have simply not gotten into play because people and their opponents hadn't mastered the game enough yet. | ||
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Ogna
United States106 Posts
On January 10 2011 00:19 Chaosvuistje wrote: People really need to start spreading their units out more ESPECIALLY in the mid-late game. I'm not meaning in engagements per se, but in general luls of agression. A well spreaded terran army can dodge storms much more easily, and a well spreaded protoss army is obviously better versus EMP's. Argueing which caster is stronger or 'OP' is like argueing which is better, muta-ling-baneling or marine-tank-thor. With good controll, a marine-tank-thor composition is equiped to take out that composition head on. However, because the zerg is much more mobile they can emphasize on bad positioning much more. A great relation that is balanced around actual micro and positioning skill rather than macro into win. This is why I LOVE to watch ZvT's in the midgame and TvP's in the late-midgame. High templar should generallly come out ahead if the protoss is very skilled versus ghosts, as feedback outranges EMP. If the protoss is lazy and doesn't spread his high templar/sentries out while he is doing just general macro then yes, those casters will be useless. However, the same can be said about a terran opponent that balls up 50 marines and then comes to complain about storm being imbalanced, because it hit perfectly and punished an unwary opponent. These match ups are tough. ZvZ, TvP and ZvT all rely on micro sooner or later. In ZvZ its about dodging banelings cost effectively, in ZvT its about making sure your banelings don't get crushed by tanks. In TvZ its about banelings not eating up your marines, while in TvP its about dodging storms and forcefields. PvT gets pretty hard during the emp phase. People should be GLAD that it is getting harder to beat opponents. General good micro is a LOT more satisfying to watch than a 1base allin or macro into 1a deathball. Remember good reaver drops? Amazing mines? That entertainment will come back as the game gets more mature. All the elements for this excitement are available. They have simply not gotten into play because people and their opponents hadn't mastered the game enough yet. I totally agree with you, personally i think all races are perfectly even, its just about playeres making advancements. Furitdealer, Foxer, MC, Jinro, all these guys change the way the game is played, there is a lot more that can done with each race, when one race looks terrible its because they need to come up with something new, remember terran before Foxer? zerg were roflstomping terran before foxer showed us a new way to play Edit** i dont know how to spoiler the quote lol | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On January 09 2011 15:37 iAmJeffReY wrote: EMP Storm Shields. Hitpoints. Recharges. Doesn't. Can't kill. Can kill. 45+ Second build time plus travel time Warp in death shots. A bit different. Learn to spread and preconcave like terran has to to win battles, and spread units through hotkeys so EMP can't hit many. Hell, run an OB or two around ahead and feedback ghosts. EMP is hard enough to use. It's already got a 'travel' time, and you have to place it ahead of where you think they're moving. /end mocking But forreal, EMP can't be warped in, that's the big difference. Any competent Terran will have a raven in his army mid/late game. Your obs can no longer sit on his army to feedback ghosts. It's very hard to stop ghosts from getting off EMPs late game because of this & cloak. Terran can scan the obs in your army and easily snipe it with 3 ghosts (20 damage per shot, obs melt in one volley), and then drop 3 EMPs without so much as losing a unit. EMP isn't hard to use, its quite easy, however, that isn't that big of a deal. Protoss starts to run into problems with EMP mid-late game. Anyone complaining about EMP before that is playing lazily (not sniping ghosts, not spreading), but once ghost + raven combo comes into play, Protoss cannot stop the EMP machine because they don't have an outlet to viably scout the unit composition. | ||
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On January 09 2011 14:10 Kakisho wrote: Agree, but I kinda think landing good EMP's are too easy. In broodwar, landing perfect storms was kinda hard because if you were fighting a hundred lings, twenty hydras and a bunch of ultralisks, they came in, in akward streams from several angles, because you could only select 12 at a time. In SCII every single unit is in a tight ball and move fluidly. EMP is also practically instant and has a very big radius. Too many things going for it. Imagine if EMP shot a projectile, that detonated 2 seconds afterwards? The worst part of EMP is that the opponent cannot REACT to it. If you didn't know your opponent has one ghost, in his army of 100 marines marauders, medivacs, then you're kinda going to take extremely high damage from the EMP. If the opponent had psionic storm, you can retreat and try to bait bad storms. How do you bait EMP? The Terran player just has to click when there are as many units under the circle as possible and boom, instant. Then the Terran player can make sure he gets most of the spellcasters, all of which happen to be very slow units (templar, infestor, ghost, mothership, queen, raven, sentry) who can't really do a thing to REACT to EMP. The only counterargument to this is that you have to spread out your units. But it's hard to keep your army spread out, when moving around, it's really micro intensive. And also, a ghost can EMP multiple times, so a few ghosts can easily cover a large area. I know this isnt' the right place, but I felt like ranting. if ghosts are packed in this mess just storm outright and HTs' job is done anyway ? | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On January 10 2011 00:50 cArn- wrote: if ghosts are packed in this mess just storm outright and HTs' job is done anyway ? If they are packed in a clump and on hold position LOL. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On January 10 2011 00:47 junemermaid wrote: Any competent Terran will have a raven in his army mid/late game. Your obs can no longer sit on his army to feedback ghosts. It's very hard to stop ghosts from getting off EMPs late game because of this & cloak. Terran can scan the obs in your army and easily snipe it with 3 ghosts (20 damage per shot, obs melt in one volley), and then drop 3 EMPs without so much as losing a unit. EMP isn't hard to use, its quite easy, however, that isn't that big of a deal. Protoss starts to run into problems with EMP mid-late game. Anyone complaining about EMP before that is playing lazily (not sniping ghosts, not spreading), but once ghost + raven combo comes into play, Protoss cannot stop the EMP machine because they don't have an outlet to viably scout the unit composition. Ghost - raven is incredibly gas intensive. But we are talking about a lategame situation, so it is a perfectly possible unit combination. Lets see what this is strong against, the Raven is used to detect the fragile observers and having them killed, so the ghosts can move to your army undetected and emp it. However, since we are talking about the late game, there is no reason you shouldn't have cannons around. These detect and hit the ghosts pretty well. And cost only minerals. On top of that, cannons are GREAT for stalling if a medivac drop happens, giving you more time to respond to marauders trying to snipe out your tech. Do note that I am a zerg player. I have hardly played any TvP or PvT's in diamond level. However, given that the lategame High templar / ghost-raven stage requires a ton of gas and gives you a mineral pile the size of the Great piramid, you should find the time to build a lot of cannons around your tech/bases. I won't bother trying to argue with a real protoss player, they know their race better than I do. Just sharing my observations I see in TvP/PvT games. | ||
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JustProbes
United States28 Posts
according to liquipedia feedback has 9 range and emp has 10 i think they would be correct | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
emp is instant...while storm has to deal dmg over time... emp doesn't need a long 200/200 reseach, while Storm does... emp/snipe has a bigger range than Storm&Feedback... emp radius is better than Storms... emp is available after Baracks->Ghost Storm is available after Gateway->Core->Twilight->Storm research don't get why Terran doesn't incorporate more standard Ghost Gameplay into PvT. even in Drops, Ghost would do great, since they emp and half of the workes hp is already gone. if Protoss only gets Warp-ins and doesn't have his army there, emp the warped ones, and take them out easily. sure Ghosts cost is high, but their abilites could be exploited alot. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On January 10 2011 01:08 JustProbes wrote: in response to the person who said feedback outranges emp: according to liquipedia feedback has 9 range and emp has 10 i think they would be correct Hmm, interresting. I always thought the opposite. That would have been a good relation. Then again, that would mean perfect protoss play would be better than perfect terran play. Still, I'd advice anyone that has lots of trouble with splash damage to spread your armies out while you aren't in a major battle or generally just macroing. It gives you a better defenders advantage versus any engagement because you'll have the better concave right at the start AND are better versus splash. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On January 10 2011 01:47 freetgy wrote: emp has no cooldown...while Storm has... emp is instant...while storm has to deal dmg over time... emp doesn't need a long 200/200 reseach, while Storm does... emp/snipe has a bigger range than Storm&Feedback... emp radius is better than Storms... emp is available after Baracks->Ghost Storm is available after Gateway->Core->Twilight->Storm research don't get why Terran doesn't incorporate more standard Ghost Gameplay into PvT. even in Drops, Ghost would do great, since they emp and half of the workes hp is already gone. if Protoss only gets Warp-ins and doesn't have his army there, emp the warped ones, and take them out easily. sure Ghosts cost is high, but their abilites could be exploited alot. sigh Jeffrey. On January 10 2011 02:01 Chaosvuistje wrote: Hmm, interresting. I always thought the opposite. That would have been a good relation. Then again, that would mean perfect protoss play would be better than perfect terran play. Still, I'd advice anyone that has lots of trouble with splash damage to spread your armies out while you aren't in a major battle or generally just macroing. It gives you a better defenders advantage versus any engagement because you'll have the better concave right at the start AND are better versus splash. Wouldn't it be the opposite? Just wondering. xD On January 10 2011 02:09 freetgy wrote: well the problem is Protoss has way bigger units then Terran If our units were smaller, we would die to EMP. | ||
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Ogna
United States106 Posts
storm does its perfectly balanced. admin please close thread | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On January 10 2011 02:09 iChau wrote: If our units were smaller, we would die to EMP. i don't mind emps strengh right now, since emp doesn't get abused much these days. My comment was aimed to foxer like spread micro in fight. this is just not possible at least in bigger Armys with those big/slow ass units protoss has. It is a different story if the Armys are standing around so you can position freely. | ||
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Kyandid
Canada124 Posts
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nathangonmad
United Kingdom317 Posts
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Zephan
Canada29 Posts
You could drop 1 or 2 ghosts into an enemy base, EMP their OC, and then nuke! I don't know if it's common knowledge, but EMP affects buildings too. That, or you could constantly drop ghosts and keep EMPing their OC, which means that they can't use Extra Supplies, Scans, or mules ever. Of course if you want to do the EMP+Nuke strat, you'd have to emp all of the OCs, and only if they do not have a Raven or missile turret nearby. Even if they attempt to build one, you should have a couple other units in the medivac to help snipe off the SCV building the turret/ the turret itself. | ||
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Adyx
10 Posts
On January 10 2011 03:50 Zephan wrote: People have said that Ghosts aren't very effective against Terrans. I'd like to dispute that statement. You could drop 1 or 2 ghosts into an enemy base, EMP their OC, and then nuke! I don't know if it's common knowledge, but EMP affects buildings too. That, or you could constantly drop ghosts and keep EMPing their OC, which means that they can't use Extra Supplies, Scans, or mules ever. Of course if you want to do the EMP+Nuke strat, you'd have to emp all of the OCs, and only if they do not have a Raven or missile turret nearby. Even if they attempt to build one, you should have a couple other units in the medivac to help snipe off the SCV building the turret/ the turret itself. I think they changed EMP'ing buildings | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On January 10 2011 01:47 freetgy wrote: emp has no cooldown...while Storm has... emp is instant...while storm has to deal dmg over time... emp doesn't need a long 200/200 reseach, while Storm does... emp/snipe has a bigger range than Storm&Feedback... emp radius is better than Storms... emp is available after Baracks->Ghost Storm is available after Gateway->Core->Twilight->Storm research don't get why Terran doesn't incorporate more standard Ghost Gameplay into PvT. even in Drops, Ghost would do great, since they emp and half of the workes hp is already gone. if Protoss only gets Warp-ins and doesn't have his army there, emp the warped ones, and take them out easily. sure Ghosts cost is high, but their abilites could be exploited alot. If you face a terran that goes "Baracks->Ghost", you can just robo them into the ground. He won't have sufficient vikings. And I also wonder why ghosts aren't used more commonly in TvP. I also wonder why protoss clump spellcasters together in neat little "EMP here, please!", bunches. | ||
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