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Hi guys,
I have recently realized that when I play against a protoss player, I just don't really know where he is going from my early scouts.
Against terran, if I see a factory and a bunker, I know I can reasonably expect early banshee harass, or maybe thor drop (depending on add-ons), ; if I see two rax, I guess I can expect an early bio push, a reactor on a factory is likely to bring some helion harass, etc. Against zerg, it's even easier (because it's really easy to scout).
But against a protoss player, I really don't know if there are simple signs to know where the player is going... (beyond having two gateways before core and gas, which is a pretty good indicator of some early zealot pressure to come, although not necessarily)
And all this is really problematic to me, as I am very often not capable to see when protoss is going to push, which means that I make too much army, and not enough drones...
A couple of more precise questions I have (I am around 2.7k diamond):
1. Is there any early sign of a protoss going to air?
1bis. Does a fast double gas ( by that I mean, having one gas mining, one gas building started just after putting a gateway and a cybernetic core)
means necessarily early air, or can it be a lot of sentries, or fast collossus ? in the end, does early double gas mean anything?
2. Is it possible to know whether the player is going for a 4 gateway push, or some expand without any real push (like a three gateways into expand)?
3. Are there ways to guess if the protoss is going for zealot centuries, or rather stalkers in the beginning? (before the push actually happens?)
4. Even seeing a robo is not so clear for me, as it may well mean colossi or immortals...(which means completely different things for zerlings for instance). if you don't scout the colossus building (which still may be hidden, and give place to an annoying colossus pressure). Is there some kind of specific meaningful timing for robo?
These questions are a bit random, I am probably forgetting some important aspects I wanted to mention, but you got the idea! Are there good hints that make you reasonably expect things (like early double gas, specific buildings timings, number of built gateways, and so on?
And to you, my fellow zergs, I ask: what do you get from the few things you see ?
Any rule of thumb welcome!
Thanks a lot,
Macpo
EDIT: my question is not really about "how to see things?" with overlords, lings, and so on; but rather "how to understand what it means?" Thanks for the first answers!
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Do you sacrifice overlords at all? I sac an overlord every game vs P and T and usually get a ton of info from it. I always send my first overlord to a safe location near their base and send it in somewhere around the 3 or 4 minute mark.
Try watching a few pro replays and watch their overlord sac. Also try to send a ling or two up the ramp and see if you can get any info from what he has at the ramp, if anything.
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On January 09 2011 10:10 Macpo wrote:
Hi guys,
I have recently realized that when I play against a protoss player, I just don't really know where he is going from my early scouts.
Against terran, if I see a factory and a bunker, I know I can reasonably expect early banshee harass, or maybe thor drop (depending on add-ons), ; if I see two rax, I guess I can expect an early bio push, a reactor on a factory is likely to bring some helion harass, etc. Against zerg, it's even easier (because it's really easy to scout).
But against a protoss player, I really don't know if there are simple signs to know where the player is going... (beyond having two gateways before core and gas, which is a pretty good indicator of some early zealot pressure to come, although not necessarily)
And all this is really problematic to me, as I am very often not capable to see when protoss is going to push, which means that I make too much army, and not enough drones...
A couple of more precise questions I have (I am around 2.7k diamond):
1. Is there any early sign of a protoss going to air?
1bis. Does a fast double gas ( by that I mean, having one gas mining, one gas building started just after putting a gateway and a cybernetic core)
means necessarily early air, or can it be a lot of centuries, or fast collossus ? in the end, does early double gas mean anything?
2. Is it possible to know whether the player is going for a 4 gateway push, or some expand without any real push (like a three gateways into expand)?
3. Are there ways to guess if the protoss is going for zealot centuries, or rather stalkers in the beginning? (before the push actually happens?)
4. Even seeing a robo is not so clear for me, as it may well mean colossi or immortals...(which means completely different things for zerlings for instance). if you don't scout the colossus building (which still may be hidden, and give place to an annoying colossus pressure). Is there some kind of specific meaningful timing for robo?
These questions are a bit random, I am probably forgetting some important aspects I wanted to mention, but you got the idea! Are there good hints that make you reasonably expect things (like early double gas, specific buildings timings, number of built gateways, and so on?
And to you, my fellow zergs, I ask: what do you get from the few things you see ?
Any rule of thumb welcome!
Thanks a lot,
Macpo
to question 1. all double gas means is they won't be doing the 1 gas 4 gate, other then that you can't assume anything else
2. seeing whether they have a double gas is generally a good idea, as well as having the zergling in place to see if they are moving out, however if you see a stalker early, it's generally a good indidcator they are 4 gating, although not always
3. as above, generally 2 gas means sentry expand, poking up the ramp to see what's going on and if you see a sentry you're fine, if you see a stalker they are more then likely but not always 4gating
4. if you see robo before expand, then generally you should assume some kind of immortal all in, if you see it afterwards, then his robo will be for observers, and then after that he will react to your build so you need to keep an eye on that
my advice would be to try a sac ovi at like 30 and that should tell you what you want to know
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Yep I do that most of the time, but I am really not satisfied from the information I get... for instance, if you sac and just see some gateways what does that mean? This is the kind of things I'd like to know!
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With double gas often leads to either Void or DT rush.
Best why to tell the two apart is the number of gateways(DT will have 3-4) and the number of zealots as DT rush you can fit in 4-5 while your tech builds.
A good sign of a 4 WG is if they have 1 zeal 1 sentry early(maybe even a stalker as well) before the time when warp would finish.
Remember you can learn a lot from just what units he has at the top of his ramp at different times
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4gate-
Look for the obvious 4gates or the chrono boosting of the warpgate tech. Sometimes they put their core at there wall-in so just keep poking back at it to see if it being chrono boosted if its happening 3 times then you know its 4gate most likely. Another way to check this is with your original scout if he is saving energy on his nexus.
3gate robo-
is pretty standard if you see a regular mixture of zeal-stalker-sentry, If hes not fast expanding and you have no other info then you can assume this is his build. But do not make the mistake of seeing nothing and assuming this is the build, you want to look for amount of units and unit comps even when you sac an ovie and see nothing. If he is heavy zealot he's teching etc... heavy sentry you know you safe from tech
DT-
scout the map you have the lings and the control of the map scout everywhere for hidden tech Toss love to hide DT tech, also when poking at his front of sacking an overlord you will see more zealots then usually and few sentries
Airplay-
sort of the same idea at DT sometimes they proxy but not always just sac an extra overlord if you have too because its definitly worth it, the amount of information you get from that extra overlord could change the game.
Also feigning pressure at his front might make him reveal his tech sooner. Protoss hate showing their voidrays to kill a few roaches at the front just to get to you base and having you putting up spores.
Last thing I think all players should put up one spore in their mineral line in ZvP it will help so much against Voidray and DT rushes its the same way Terrans put up turrets before mutas get there.
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Units comp is a good way to tell what he'll be doing. If 2 of the first 3 of his units are zealots, it hints that he'll be spending his gas on non-gateway units, like voidrays. If there's one zealot and all stalkers, he's probably doing a blink stalker build. If he's staying on one base for too long, but has a regular gateway composition, it'll probably be a delayed 1-base all-in like a 5 warpgate or a 3 warpgate + voidray.
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Sack an overlord at 6:30 or so.
Other than that, what people have said, chronoboosted core = 4gate, keep a zergling at the natural, if you see a 4gate force move out, plop down 3-4 spine crawlers and defend with lings and queens. Here is the key: If he 4 gates and doesn't do economic damage, you win, so you don't need to see it coming WAY in advance, just far enough to not lose a ton of drones or your natural. You might have known that already, but in regards to scouting, my point is that you can get away without full knowledge, especially on maps with slightly longer rush distance (Delta Quad and steppes might be tough, definitely sack the overlord).
I disagree re: double gas, a three gate expand is going to get their second gas fairly early as well. I'd say on the flip side, if you only see one gas and a chronoboosted core, you are definite going to see an early all in 4gate. Some people will do more economic 4gates with 2 gas and the intention of expanding behind it, but you should be able to hold off that timing a lot easier, as it comes a solid minute+ later.
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sac an ovie around 7 minutes and that should tell you his tech path. Also, you should be using overseers to contaminate, so if you don't get any good info out of that sacked ovie, get your info from that overseer.
Also, gas timings help combined with your ramp ling (or if he FE's the one outside his nat). If he has allot of zeals but took 2 gas, you're looking at robo play or stargate (most commonly collosus). If he has a ton of sentries and stalkers, he can't get really fast colossus or DT's. After you survive to lair tech, you'll get plenty of intel from your overseer unless he's commiting a lot of resources to cannons, which will weaken his army strength early on, so that's another plus.
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And lots of sentries usually means a fast expand
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I find that it isn't a question of figuring out what he is going, rather forcing his hand.
Early lings force zealots or possibly sentries
Later lings force collosus or some zealots
Early roaches force stalkers
Later roaches force immortals, collosus, or void rays
Hydras force collossus or possibly templar or carriers
Mutas force blink stalkers or possibly pheonixes or templar
Other than things like 4 warpgate or void ray rush, Prot are reactionary towards Zerg.
I usually get a few early roaches, forcing stalkers or fast immortals. Then I get hydras. When Prot sees roach/hydra, pretty much the only thing they can do is go collosus (templar are meh against roaches and no one goes carriers). While they are teching to collosus, I grab some corruptors. Late game I transition into Brood Lords, forcing either stalkers or void rays. Both melt to hydras, and if I have kept enough corruptors, they can't use collosus either.
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Dont sac an overlord at 6:30.. that's too late to see any possible pushes like a 4-gate. I'd suggest saccing it at around 5:00-5:30, that's when i do it. Lots of sentries means 3-gate expand, stalkers most likely means 4-gate.. Most protoss I play either do one of these two. Either this or early stargate, which you can just get spores and queens. protoss barely go early robo on me, unless their doing some kind of immortal/zealot all-in or an immortal drop
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1. Double gas does not mean air. Them having few gateway units and relying on 1 or 2 sentries to FF their ramp,or having cannons is an indication, at the least, that they are teching in some way. Especially, if they are going for their gasses really fast on 2 base. Most toss tech takes forever to research, you should have plenty of time to figure it out, either with a suicide ov or changeling.
2. The crono, if they are cronoing their gates pre warp or the cyber instead of probes it will usually mean a push is coming and not a long term economic plan. Remember, toss gets crono often so only by seeing what they use 2 or 3 in a row on will you get a clear indication. Sometimes, I'll put a crono on probes even though I'm not planning on an expo right away only because I won't have enough money for another gateway unit that fast. So you need to see what 2 out of 3 are going to. If that makes sense.
3. The zerg really controls this. I am warping in 3 or 4 units at a time so I can always adjust my composition. I do that according to "Is he making roaches (stalkers) or lings (zealots), you always want some sentries around. But if you are going roaches stealing a gas is a good idea, because if he makes to many stalkers to handle it he won't have many sentries early and you can reinforce with ling very fast and eat them up.
4. Well, if he isn't going colossus he won't make that expensive support bay. By the time he is making the decision whether or not to go colossus you should have changeling or ov scouts, this shouldn't be a problem. If he doesn't go colossus you can bet on templar. HT or DT, toss needs some kind of splash support for gateway units mid game, or DT's to do damage. They aren't going to bother with a robo most of the time if they are going air, they don't need the obs because the air units scout for them. If they are going air early you just have to take note as to when he stops air production. That will be the obvious sign of tech switch. (May also indicate he's going "big air" because carrier or mother take FOREVER to make.) but remember you can see what a stargate is making by looking at the silhouette inside of it while its spinning.
Most of this is assuming 2 base play.
By the way, the dead giveaway for DT is a very low stalker and sentry count. Usually on 3 gates. Anytime, you see a toss making tons of zealots and it isn't very early, it's because they are restricted on gas from teching. As a rule of thumb, by about 45 food zerg should always have 1 overseer out. Banshee and dt rush timing is similar btw.
In general toss will always have 1 or 2 sentries (for defense and safety against rushes/cheese) but early game stalkers are awesome in the early game. Almost anytime you see a really low stalker count and no more than 2 sentries, something is up. The 100 minerals to sack an ov and find out is well worth it! It will be able to live longer anyway if there no stalkers.
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On January 09 2011 11:31 justindab0mb wrote:
Dont sac an overlord at 6:30.. that's too late to see any possible pushes like a 4-gate. I'd suggest saccing it at around 5:00-5:30, that's when i do it.
This is the correct scouting timing.
More aggressive 4-Gates get their 3 Gates down slightly before the 5 minute mark, but you're still on time to scout them, and by delaying it by half a minute or so you can take more hints (or see it stratight away) on what their build will be if they don't 4-Gate you.
Also while you're scouting early, take note of their 2 Pylons placement so you know where exactly to direct your Overlord before it becomes Stalker meat.
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Well if he went zealot for centuries you could wall off and go air...
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Sentries for centuries, that's all one needs 
Thanks to all for their answers! it's really really helpful...
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One good thing to do is always have a backup plan in case all your attempts ate scouting are twarthed. Whenever my ovies get sniped before finding out what is is they're doing I get a roach/ling/hydra force in the mid game, then scout again when I have ovie speed to find out if they're getting enough collossus to warrant corruptors.
With roach/ling/hydra you're mostly safe against anything. More important than the army composition, though, is the TIMING of their attack. If you figure this out perfectly you will have invariably a bigger army.
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If you see no gas, expect either a zealot rush, cannon rush or a risky fast nexus.
If you see only one gas after the cybernetics core is done, it's likely to be a 4gate.
If you see two gas, this is required for most of the other strategies, protoss don't give their strategy away as early as the other races (on account of having to go gateway then core regardless of build). Best bet is to sac an overlord in around the 5 minute 30 mark and at the same time check for any proxy pylons around your base / natural areas.
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Robbellicose is pretty much spot on. 1 gas is very rare and usually means a push, no gas is basically always a fast forge/nexus build but that is easy to scout as he won't have a stalker anytime soon and 2 gas can almost mean anything.
I think it is generally just more important to be scouting around your base for proxies and just see when he moves out. If you have speedlings and a roach warren you can basically adapt to anything in time then, especially if you also have a 3rd queen. Saccing an ovie early on i'm not a big fan off as it's not nearly garanteed to spot anything and can give a false sense of safety. Warpgates or a stargate can easily be put in corner, if anything i'd rather tech a bit quicker and get a overseer as you can generally keep that alive to scout and has good uses.
On small maps it's very hard to respond to attacks in time but i'd just advise to go some form of fast hydra's on those. Hydra is safe against anything but a 4 gate and hydrapushes are very strong on small maps.
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EPT
