EPTIf it's not that long, you don't really need to go Stargate since your unit composition most of the time has sentries in it. I like to go Zealots/Stalkers/Immortal/Sentries with an observer behind my army. Make sure it's behind your army because Terran tend to scan and focus fire the observer with their marines. If it does take a long time, then yes, your best option is to get some phoenixes out. Phoenixes do help in numerous ways against this build buy killing off the PDD, Raven, Banshee, and lifting up the backbone of the ground army, the tanks. But yes, you want to expand once you see this build b/c it does take a long time for the Terran to build that army up.
[H] PvT Trouble with Banshcee Raven marine Siege - Page 2
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
If it's not that long, you don't really need to go Stargate since your unit composition most of the time has sentries in it. I like to go Zealots/Stalkers/Immortal/Sentries with an observer behind my army. Make sure it's behind your army because Terran tend to scan and focus fire the observer with their marines. If it does take a long time, then yes, your best option is to get some phoenixes out. Phoenixes do help in numerous ways against this build buy killing off the PDD, Raven, Banshee, and lifting up the backbone of the ground army, the tanks. But yes, you want to expand once you see this build b/c it does take a long time for the Terran to build that army up. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
Emphasis on the zealot/phoenix | ||
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cassurai
Singapore307 Posts
On January 09 2011 15:47 FearTHeFrO wrote: phoenix/zealot/immortal. And a lot of these comments are kind of weird. People suggesting chargelots+void rays or something is really just dumb. Getting a robo+a stargate+charge is just way too much, you want to be able to defend it with as little tech structures as possible. I believe this push comes around the 8-9 minute mark, how in the world could you possibly get charge+void rays out by then unless you are heavy one basing, and one base protoss vs one base terran is just a very bad idea. Also, expanding around 50 food is good vs this, not a super fast expo but you do need to expand vs this. this move does not come around the 8-9 minute mark. it comes at 11 minutes. early expo is necessary. if not he contains you and it's even worse. | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1257 Posts
On January 09 2011 13:54 wargasm wrote: What's there to nerf? The counter's right there in this thread. They're actually not really nerfing it, but buffing the defense. Phoenix's have 10 less seconds of build time now to help deal with this push. Once the new patch comes out as long as you scout the build you can easily hold it off. | ||
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
So, you're on 2 bases with what? 3gate / 1 robo / 1stargate? and then add on a couple more gates as soon as possible? I feel like you're not going to be fully saturated at both bases by the time the push comes (approx 11 min mark). Which is why I feel like you should be producing out of 3gate 1 stargate rather than the 5 gate 1 stargate? Does this make sense? | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1257 Posts
On January 10 2011 07:45 Acridice wrote: Ok, so I understand the unit composition that you're aiming for. So say you either FE on 27 or 3 gate expand just a bit later, you throw up a robo bay and scout exactly what they're doing around 8 mins or so. To me, it seems that you ought to be on 2 bases for when this push comes because it does not seem logical to me to try and defend this push on one base. So, you're on 2 bases with what? 3gate / 1 robo / 1stargate? and then add on a couple more gates as soon as possible? I feel like you're not going to be fully saturated at both bases by the time the push comes (approx 11 min mark). Which is why I feel like you should be producing out of 3gate 1 stargate rather than the 5 gate 1 stargate? Does this make sense? I have about 3gate/robo/stargate. Not really producing out of the robo unless I can. But I can have a decently saturated double base by the time this comes. Obviously this push is still extremely deadly even if you react to it perfectly, but this is the best way to deal with it. 1 base vs this is just gg. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
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Guruite
United States19 Posts
Also archons are incredable damage sinks. I'd suggest using them once your zealots are gone to clean up the banshees and allow another 1-2 warpins. Another weird suggestion is to use hallucinated immortals and phoenixes. The immortals take a ton of tank damage before they die (tanks to 20 damage to their shields) and hallucinated phoenixes will exhaust the pdd very quickly. | ||
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gamerkhang
United States152 Posts
Your chargelots are key to destroying marines as you use your phoenix to snipe banshees. Focusing on vikings is bad, because your chargelots take the damage for it. After all, if there are no banshees/ravens left, you can take out the vikings with stalkers (should the phoenixes need support.) Keep up on upgrades (forge and cybercore), this sort of matchup is extremely macro focused considering that you shouldn't get robo because warp prisms, observers (raven+viking=snipe), and immortals (marines go through hardened shields) are useless. Colossi are easily destroyed by vikings, and thus, are not as good as pure phoenix/chargelot/sentry. HT's... could be good, but are expensive. Keep that in mind. Cannons will obviously be needed to sense cloak @ the mineral line. If you need a heavier tank for your zealots, immortals come to mind, but I think archons would be better because they are the same tech as HT's. Other than that, though, I find this matchup extremely difficult. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
On January 10 2011 11:10 gamerkhang wrote: Chargelots are essential to this build, however, VOID RAYS ARE NOT. I've learned this the hard way, and getting phoenixes are a much better investment than void rays. Although they can't hit ground, they can shred banshees, waste PDD, kill vikings, and lift siege tanks. Void rays fall far too easily to vikings/marines compared to phoenix. Your chargelots are key to destroying marines as you use your phoenix to snipe banshees. Focusing on vikings is bad, because your chargelots take the damage for it. After all, if there are no banshees/ravens left, you can take out the vikings with stalkers (should the phoenixes need support.) Keep up on upgrades (forge and cybercore), this sort of matchup is extremely macro focused considering that you shouldn't get robo because warp prisms, observers (raven+viking=snipe), and immortals (marines go through hardened shields) are useless. Colossi are easily destroyed by vikings, and thus, are not as good as pure phoenix/chargelot/sentry. HT's... could be good, but are expensive. Keep that in mind. Cannons will obviously be needed to sense cloak @ the mineral line. If you need a heavier tank for your zealots, immortals come to mind, but I think archons would be better because they are the same tech as HT's. Other than that, though, I find this matchup extremely difficult. Maybe you find this matchup extremely difficult because you fail to make a Void Ray when someone does a Polt Timing attack against you >.< Void rays allow you to win the air war and still be able to win the ground war, as a low number of phoenixes will lose to any decent ground army BTW to all those saying chargelots, those take too long and are not worth the investment. 200/200 by 9 minutes? A wasted twilight citadel too, so it's real cost is 350/300 and it takes forever to research. Forcefields do just fine. | ||
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Bonesy
United States101 Posts
I doubt chargelot is really possible without some real sacrificing by the 11 minute mark. Same for HT's, although feedback is so nice so if it is doable, then you should do it. Colossi are reasonable vs my marines, but I usually see only one when I hit and that is not a problem. | ||
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ZeNd0kUn
United States331 Posts
The Hellion harrass is so deadly in these builds ... and that's exactly what makes you build more stalkers. And the incoming cloaked Banshees also make you produce stalkers. This buys them time to make siege tanks for any aggression a Protoss would want to make. And sometimes they'll even add a few Thors if the game goes long enough. But this is rare. Does anyone think Carriers a viable unit to aim for against this build. And there's a difference between the Polt Prime attack which comes early and the 2 base turtle timing push. The second one comes later but with more units while the first one is a deadly one base timing attack. Stargate play is crucial against this build I believe especially when the Terran has a lot of tanks. And the marines are a problem so either HT or Collo is important as well. I feel this Terran build isn't as figured out by the tosses compared to the MMM build. Immortal zealots and Phoenixes are important units to get against this build with a few sentries and stalkers as well. Would the NSPGenius vs RainbOw game in the GSL be similar to this strat we are discussing about? | ||
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
Especially painful when you caught his entire air force ~16 minutes, and then lost all your Templars with near-full energy because you brought only one Observer to the fight. Especially now that Observers are super-cheap, you should have a few back-up ones. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever seeing Feedback from you. You actually had enough Templar during that engagement to kill every Banshee, PDD, and Raven with just Feedback alone. | ||
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Robellicose
England245 Posts
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
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